LSM's Etymological Errors - Nigel Tomes

[VoiceInWilderness]

Originally Posted by awareness

It foolishness. But it does leave the churches as autonomous ... as they should be ...

Finally, LSM, becomes true to their own doctrine, that the local ground is not subject to a headquarters.

And bro Ohio, thanks for the laughs. We should have a sense of humor about all this ... else we'll break down and cry.

I was at church today, so I looked up the original incorporation papers for the church in Detroit. May 2, 1972.
The signers were RK as President, Tim Scroggins and Harry as Secretary.
Tim was probably VP as the only officer slots on the form are for Pres and Secretary.
It says:
We recognize no higher ecclesiastical body as an authority.
Additional Provisions:
The purpose or purposes for which the corporation is formed are as follows:
1. to conduct worship services in the manner prescribed i the NT
2. To edify Christians with teachings of the scriptures.
3. To preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
4. To seek universal fellowship with Christians for the testimony of God.
5. To minister spiritual and temporal needs of the poor, sick, orphans, and widows according to brethren love inspired by God.
6. We engage in home and foreign missionary activities in cooperation with affiliated churches

[Ohio]

That's really funny. Thanks for sharing ViW.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

We recognize no higher ecclesiastical body as an authority.
Additional Provisions:
The purpose or purposes for which the corporation is formed are as follows:
1. to conduct worship services in the manner prescribed i the NT
2. To edify Christians with teachings of the scriptures.
3. To preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
4. To seek universal fellowship with Christians for the testimony of God.
5. To minister spiritual and temporal needs of the poor, sick, orphans, and widows according to brethren love inspired by God.
6. We engage in home and foreign missionary activities in cooperation with affiliated churches

Not the Church in Detroit specifically, but the Local Churches in general, this may have been in the vision in the 1970's but these points indicate how much the vision has changed.
In 1988 when a core of elders from the Church in Anaheim resigned, they went into further detail to show how the vision has changed.
Of points above the two that have been distinctly lacking from the recovery for many years:

4. To seek universal fellowship with Christians for the testimony of God.
(in the ministry LSM publishes, fellowship indicates according to the One Publication. More or less.)
5. To minister spiritual and temporal needs of the poor, sick, orphans, and widows according to brethren love inspired by God.
(Sadly, this been deferred to non-LSM affiliated Christianity and non-profit organizations to fill this need. From my experience, the primary concern is to appear in the meetings and if you speak, speak according to a LSM publication. How could "the brothers" know spiritual and temporal needs if they don't visit the poor, sick, etc? There's a certain regimin in the so-called churchlife, but it doesn't include contacting or visiting brothers and sisters. Only maintaining the meetinglife.)

[UntoHim]

There are some points in this piece that have not been highlighted which could generate useful discussion. For e.g. (from note #6)

There's more on Kittel & the Nazi party in Wikipedia:
Gerhard Kittel was an ardent supporter of the German Nazi party. William F. Albright wrote that, "In view of the terrible viciousness of his attacks on Judaism and the Jews, which continued at least until 1943, Gerhard Kittel must bear the guilt of having contributed more, perhaps, than any other Christian theologian to the mass murder of Jews by Nazis.”

Yet Witness Lee emphasizes his use of Kittel’s works:

“In my home there are close to 100 sets of books by different writers who are authorities on the Bible. For instance, there is a German writer named Gerhard Kittel whose work, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, specializes in New Testament word studies. He expounded, word for word, the Greek words used in the New Testament. There are ten volumes in this set. One Greek word can have eight to ten pages of explanation, expounding in detail the classic usage of the Greek word, how it was used during the time of the Lord Jesus on the earth, its fundamental usage in the Bible, and its common usage by the Greeks.” [W. Lee, Proper Aggressiveness of the Lord's Serving Ones, Chap 7, Sect. 2] W. Lee commends Kittel’s TDNT highly saying, “There is a very good Greek dictionary—Theological Dictionary of the New Testament—which explains every word in the New Testament. It was written in German by a German brother whose last name was Kittel. The entire New Testament uses more than 7,600 Greek words, and Kittel’s research puts them into 10 big volumes, clearly indicating the usage of every Greek word. He explains the changes in their meanings from their most ancient uses to their classical usages. He also gives clear explanations of how the words were used when the Greek language pervaded the Mediterranean region. Not only so, in these volumes he also discusses the meanings of each word as used in the New Testament writings, as well as their meanings in ordinary usage outside of the biblical writings. From this book we see that Greek words have different usages according to 5 periods of time. Kittel points out all these usages for us. Because of this book we can get to the depths and carefully study every book of the New Testament.” [W. Lee, Speaking for God, Chap. 6, Sect. 5] W. Lee commends Gerhard Kittel’s multi-volume work saying, “The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament written by Gerhard Kittel...contain[s] deep analysis on the meaning and usage of every significant word in the NT.” W. Lee declares, “I consult this set of books the most. As a result I can cut straight the word of the truth according to the Greek language when I expound the New Testament.”

[zeek]

Interesting information, UntoHim. Kittel's alleged actions against Jews make him a despicable character. Do you have evidence that his Nazism or antisemitism tainted his exposition of Greek words used in the New Testament?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Interesting information, UntoHim. Kittel's alleged actions against Jews make him a despicable character. Do you have evidence that his Nazism or antisemitism tainted his exposition of Greek words used in the New Testament?

If Kittel was a Christian so was Hitler:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Christians have a long history of killing the Jesus killers. But the Jews as Jesus killers is a myth. Jews didn't kill on crosses, they stoned to death. Jesus wasn't stoned to death. Therefore the Jews didn't kill Jesus.

Moreover, just because Kittel could expound NT Greek words doesn't make him a Christian. Kittel may have had a great mind but there was no Christian heart in him.

He's no Christian I want to be associated with. If Lee was fine with such an association he was an idiot. Obviously Lee's heart wasn't right either. To Lee high peak doctrine was so important that it didn't matter if Kittel was a Christian or not. Head was more important than heart. And that was reflected in his movement.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

If Kittel was a Christian so was Hitler:



Christians have a long history of killing the Jesus killers. But the Jews as Jesus killers is a myth. Jews didn't kill on crosses, they stoned to death. Jesus wasn't stoned to death. Therefore the Jews didn't kill Jesus.

Moreover, just because Kittel could expound NT Greek words doesn't make him a Christian. Kittel may have had a great mind but there was no Christian heart in him.

He's no Christian I want to be associated with. If Lee was fine with such an association he was an idiot. Obviously Lee's heart wasn't right either. To Lee high peak doctrine was so important that it didn't matter if Kittel was a Christian or not. Head was more important than heart. And that was reflected in his movement.

Straw man fallacy. I never claimed Kittel was a Christian. That's irrelevant. I inquired about the accuracy of the book he wrote that Witness Lee referred to. As far as that issue is concerned your entire post is a fallacious ad hominem argument. Werner Von Braun was a Nazi, but that fact is irrelevant to validity of his scientific worked which helped the USA be the first to put men on the moon. I'm asking about Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament that Lee used. I don't know that Kittel's Nazism influenced his exposition of words. Tomes argued that Kittel failed to "distinguish adequately between a word and a concept; an over-reliance on etymology, including the ‘root fallacy;’ the errors of ‘illegitimate identity transfer’ and ‘‘illegitimate totality transfer’; deciding the meaning of words independently of their use in sentences and discourse; and identifying theological thought in words, rather than word-combinations or sentences...” Those sound like technical problems. Did Tomes present evidence that Kittel's book was corrupted by Nazism? I missed that.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Tomes argued that Kittel failed to "distinguish adequately between a word and a concept; an over-reliance on etymology, including the ‘root fallacy;’ the errors of ‘illegitimate identity transfer’ and ‘‘illegitimate totality transfer’; deciding the meaning of words independently of their use in sentences and discourse; and identifying theological thought in words, rather than word-combinations or sentences...” Those sound like technical problems.

To hear Lee tell it Kittel's Dictionary suffered from none of the fallacies claim by Tomes. So, so far, at this point, all we have is Tomes' word against Lees' ; he said she said.

And I'm not interested or willing enough to spend $150.00 to determine who's right.

This is my crucial realization: While in the LC I thought Lee was getting the meaning of NT Greek words by revelation from the heavenly realm.

Now I learn that, like everybody else he came by them from the earthly realm ; or in this case below that -- think the abyss -- if he came by them from a Nazi Jew hater.

[UntoHim]

Just so ya'll know, what I posted in #86 was from a lurker, and not myself. Not saying I totally agree with, or totally disagree with, Nigel's footnote here....but just trying to kind of sort of extricate myself. Ok, so I'll just speak for myself by way of commenting on the following:

Originally Posted by zeek

Interesting information, UntoHim. Kittel's alleged actions against Jews make him a despicable character. Do you have evidence that his Nazism or antisemitism tainted his exposition of Greek words used in the New Testament?

I have absolutely no idea. But I might just do some checking into this matter when I get some time. Of course, it's all just Greek to me.

Originally Posted by Ohio

One day we will all find out Obama's true colors, and then learn how many contemporary Christian leaders supported him. Not much different.

Way, way different....for now. Last I checked, the Obama administration is not putting people to death (Christian or otherwise).

Originally Posted by awareness

Christians have a long history of killing the Jesus killers. But the Jews as Jesus killers is a myth. Jews didn't kill on crosses, they stoned to death. Jesus wasn't stoned to death. Therefore the Jews didn't kill Jesus.

Come on Harold, you're way better than this. Read the Bible. Or, if you want to reduce it all down to a Hollywood movie - The Passion of the Christ - even Mel Gibson got it right. The Jewish leaders of the day used the "civil" system to condemn and eventually crucify the Lord Jesus. As the poignant line of the Lord Jesus to Pontius Pilate:Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin. The responsibility was laid square upon the shoulders of the Jewish leaders of the time.

Moreover, just because Kittel could expound NT Greek words doesn't make him a Christian. Kittel may have had a great mind but there was no Christian heart in him.

Agreed!

[OBW]

Whether Kittel's word studies are good is based on the word studies, not his status as a Christian or as a Nazi.

One thing that has bothered me about so many words used in the NT (and in the whole Bible for that matter) is the number that are given special meaning in a Christian context. They would be meaningful if left at common usage of the day, but have instead been imbued with special meaning that is deemed layered-on by the fact that it is in the Bible. Now there are clearly passages (mostly OT, and to some extent the NT parables) that are full of imagery. But even there, it is not about special meaning of words, but of the images that the passages as a whole provide. Even the types are mainly plain words. It is the parallel with something else that gives it the additional meaning.

But we come along and determine that "zoe" is exclusively "God's life" everywhere it is used when the word was not created by the biblical writers to have a special meaning, but already had a primary meaning that was quite meaningful for the things being written by them. And surely that word had a link to the divine because it was the connection with Christ that was said to make it more fully accessible to man. But it did not need a different, special, new meaning to convey what I continually see as the truth of the passages in question.

As an example, it has been suggested that the word that we translate "sin" carries with it the meaning of an archery term that means to simply miss the mark. Aimed at it, hit the target, but not quite the center, therefore a "sin." But the Greek word from which it comes does not appear to carry such a meaning at the time of writing. It meant to do what is wrong. (Hard to say that not quite hitting the center of the target is wrong.) But instead, it seems we have taken a meaning of the English (Old English?) word it was translated into and back-dated it to the original writing.

Just one simple example. But these word studies are full of such words. And when you look up words in regular dictionaries, how many have a special meaning in a religious context. And how many of those meanings were created over time and not by the original writers of the texts.

Add to that the constant further redefinition of words by people like Lee. Such as when he says that a particular word is "simply" one of many actual potential meanings. And often one of the more obscure ones. Or one that he somewhat made up. Jesus was full of grace. Grace came with Him. But the Bible never defines grace as "simply Christ." That is a Leeism. And it somewhat obliterates the actual use of the word. The word no longer has a specific meaning that is tied to its roots. Instead, it is a word that puts our focus on something other than the actual characteristics of grace.

Maybe Kittel's word study does not do this. But sometimes I think the more people try to dig and dig into words trying to find something more than what is at or near the surface, the more they are going to find nonsense, but convinced they have found gold. (Or be selling whatever it is they found as gold.)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Whether Kittel's word studies are good is based on the word studies, not his status as a Christian or as a Nazi.

Wrong. See post #96.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by zeek

Kittel's alleged actions against Jews make him a despicable character. Do you have evidence that his Nazism or antisemitism tainted his exposition of Greek words used in the New Testament?

This from the same lurker:

The answer is Yes, some scholars who have examined this issue claim Kittel's racist views influences his publications, incl. TDNT

Some quotes from scholars on this question
“Very few users of [G. Kittel’s TDNT] are aware of ...the fundamentally anti-Jewish structure of TDNT itself” [Wayne A. Meeks, “A Nazi NT Professor Reads His Bible: the Strange Case of Gerhard Kittel” in James L. Kugel, Judith H. Newman, Judith Hood Newman (eds.) The Idea of Biblical Interpretation: Essays in Honor of James L. Kugel, pp. 513-4]
“Kittel and his colleagues in the TDNT project put [their] confused theory of language to work...to support the negative role of Jews...” [Wayne A. Meeks, “A Nazi NT Professor Reads His Bible: the Strange Case of Gerhard Kittel” in James L. Kugel, Judith H. Newman, Judith Hood Newman (eds.) The Idea of Biblical Interpretation: Essays in Honor of James L. Kugel, p. 537]
Maurice Casey “argues that the TDNT [edited by Kittel]...is a very dangerous book...Since the editor-in-chief Gerhard Kittel and a number of major contributors were Nazis, users of the TDNT should be aware of their prejudices and assumptions. For example, K. G. Kuhn projected the ‘Jewish Problem’ back to the ancient world where he portrayed Judaism as being responsible for Jew-hatred. ...Walter Gundermann attempted to claim that Jesus was ‘Aryan’ (‘a Galilean’). Even non-Nazi contributors to the TDND are shown to have suffered from traditional German Christian anti-semitism.” [Maurice Casey, “Some Anti-Semitic Assumptions in the TDNT” Novum Testamentum, Vol. 41, No. 3, (July 1999) pp. 286-291, Abstract in Susan Sarah Cohen (ed.) Anti-Semitism Annotated Bibliography, Vol. 16, #0461, p. 157]

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This from the same lurker:

The answer is Yes, some scholars who have examined this issue claim Kittel's racist views influences his publications, incl. TDNT

Some quotes from scholars on this question
“Very few users of [G. Kittel’s TDNT] are aware of ...the fundamentally anti-Jewish structure of TDNT itself” [Wayne A. Meeks, “A Nazi NT Professor Reads His Bible: the Strange Case of Gerhard Kittel” in James L. Kugel, Judith H. Newman, Judith Hood Newman (eds.) The Idea of Biblical Interpretation: Essays in Honor of James L. Kugel, pp. 513-4]
“Kittel and his colleagues in the TDNT project put [their] confused theory of language to work...to support the negative role of Jews...” [Wayne A. Meeks, “A Nazi NT Professor Reads His Bible: the Strange Case of Gerhard Kittel” in James L. Kugel, Judith H. Newman, Judith Hood Newman (eds.) The Idea of Biblical Interpretation: Essays in Honor of James L. Kugel, p. 537]
Maurice Casey “argues that the TDNT [edited by Kittel]...is a very dangerous book...Since the editor-in-chief Gerhard Kittel and a number of major contributors were Nazis, users of the TDNT should be aware of their prejudices and assumptions. For example, K. G. Kuhn projected the ‘Jewish Problem’ back to the ancient world where he portrayed Judaism as being responsible for Jew-hatred. ...Walter Gundermann attempted to claim that Jesus was ‘Aryan’ (‘a Galilean’). Even non-Nazi contributors to the TDND are shown to have suffered from traditional German Christian anti-semitism.” [Maurice Casey, “Some Anti-Semitic Assumptions in the TDNT” Novum Testamentum, Vol. 41, No. 3, (July 1999) pp. 286-291, Abstract in Susan Sarah Cohen (ed.) Anti-Semitism Annotated Bibliography, Vol. 16, #0461, p. 157]

Thank you UntoHim and thanks to the "lurker". These are serious allegations that a text that Lee referred to frequently and endorsed enthusiastically was corrupted by antisemitism. I intend to look into the texts that you provided to see for myself what evidence Kittel's critics based their conclusions on. So far, the closer Lee's methods are scrutinized, the more flaws that appear in them.

[awareness]

Tell lurker that checking his/her references would cost a fortune. Ask if any help can be offered.

Thanks...
Awareness/Harold

Originally Posted by UntoHim

This from the same lurker:

The answer is Yes, some scholars who have examined this issue claim Kittel's racist views influences his publications, incl. TDNT

Some quotes from scholars on this question
“Very few users of [G. Kittel’s TDNT] are aware of ...the fundamentally anti-Jewish structure of TDNT itself” [Wayne A. Meeks, “A Nazi NT Professor Reads His Bible: the Strange Case of Gerhard Kittel” in James L. Kugel, Judith H. Newman, Judith Hood Newman (eds.) The Idea of Biblical Interpretation: Essays in Honor of James L. Kugel, pp. 513-4]
“Kittel and his colleagues in the TDNT project put [their] confused theory of language to work...to support the negative role of Jews...” [Wayne A. Meeks, “A Nazi NT Professor Reads His Bible: the Strange Case of Gerhard Kittel” in James L. Kugel, Judith H. Newman, Judith Hood Newman (eds.) The Idea of Biblical Interpretation: Essays in Honor of James L. Kugel, p. 537]
Maurice Casey “argues that the TDNT [edited by Kittel]...is a very dangerous book...Since the editor-in-chief Gerhard Kittel and a number of major contributors were Nazis, users of the TDNT should be aware of their prejudices and assumptions. For example, K. G. Kuhn projected the ‘Jewish Problem’ back to the ancient world where he portrayed Judaism as being responsible for Jew-hatred. ...Walter Gundermann attempted to claim that Jesus was ‘Aryan’ (‘a Galilean’). Even non-Nazi contributors to the TDND are shown to have suffered from traditional German Christian anti-semitism.” [Maurice Casey, “Some Anti-Semitic Assumptions in the TDNT” Novum Testamentum, Vol. 41, No. 3, (July 1999) pp. 286-291, Abstract in Susan Sarah Cohen (ed.) Anti-Semitism Annotated Bibliography, Vol. 16, #0461, p. 157]

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

There's more on Kittel & the Nazi party in Wikipedia:
Gerhard Kittel was an ardent supporter of the German Nazi party. William F. Albright wrote that, "In view of the terrible viciousness of his attacks on Judaism and the Jews, which continued at least until 1943, Gerhard Kittel must bear the guilt of having contributed more, perhaps, than any other Christian theologian to the mass murder of Jews by Nazis.”

One day we will all find out Obama's true colors, and then learn how many contemporary Christian leaders supported him. Not much different.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One day we will all find out Obama's true colors, and then learn how many contemporary Christian leaders supported him. Not much different.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Way, way different....for now. Last I checked, the Obama administration is not putting people to death (Christian or otherwise).

Think about Bengazi bro. To say that Obama did not kill Ambassador Stevens is to say that David never killed Uriah the Hittite.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Think about Bengazi bro. To say that Obama did not kill Ambassador Stevens is to say that David never killed Uriah the Hittite.

As much as I dislike Obama, there is a rather large difference between a strategic decision to do things a certain way that turns out to be very bad and willfully putting someone into a battle with the hope that they are killed.

Have the security strategies related to our embassies been poor? Almost certainly. Should someone be called to task for sloppy intelligence or ignoring clear threats? Probably.

But it is not the same as David sending Uriah the Hittite to the front lines so he would be killed. Let's at least try to keep the rhetoric rational. If you want to accuse Obama, go after something solid. There is plenty.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

... there is a rather large difference between a strategic decision to do things a certain way that turns out to be very bad and willfully putting someone into a battle with the hope that they are killed.

But it is not the same as David sending Uriah the Hittite to the front lines so he would be killed.

Actually there was little to no difference at all. In both cases the dead men were abandoned, and soldiers around them were told to retreat or stand down. In both cases the murderer used enemy combatants to do his work for him. In both cases, the only ones who really knew what transpired were soldiers who were under orders to say nothing.

In the first case we all know why Uriah was killed. In the second case, a massive coverup is preventing us from knowing why Stevens was murdered.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Come on Harold, you're way better than this.

Well I have to respectfully disagree. But thanks. I love you too.

Originally Posted by Un2Him

Read the Bible.

"His blood be on us, and on our children"

Pharisees = "children of the devil".[John 8:44]

Jesus was arrested and tried by the Sanhedrin.

But was handed over to Pontius Pilate (a Roman), who crucified him on a cross, as, King of the Jews (a insurrectionist against the Roman Empire).

Luk 23:2 And they began to accuse him, saying, "We found this man misleading our nation and forbidding us to give tribute to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ, a king."

Originally Posted by Un2Him

The Passion of the Christ - even Mel Gibson got it right.

Mel has shown himself to be an Anti-Semite. Like Kittel and Hitler.

Originally Posted by Un2Him

The Jewish leaders of the day used the "civil" system to condemn and eventually crucify the Lord Jesus. As the poignant line of the Lord Jesus to Pontius Pilate:Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin. The responsibility was laid square upon the shoulders of the Jewish leaders of the time.

And we're indebted to them for the salvation of the cross. They were agents of God's purpose. We should thank them, not condemn them. And Jews today had nothing to do with any of it. Most of them have no blood ties to Abraham, or those of 2000 yrs ago anyway.

Bottom line: If the Spirit led Lee to Kittel it(He) led him to a Nazi Anti-Semite.

And that's laughable.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

Bottom line: If the Spirit led Lee to Kittel it(He) led him to a Nazi Anti-Semite.

And that's laughable.

It may be, but you're not going to get very far with the LSM crowd along this line of logic because it doesn't matter who a person is or does as long as he is the MOTA. Just call Kittel a mini-MOTA raised up by God and you're good to go.

[VoiceInWilderness]

Originally Posted by Terry

Not the Church in Detroit specifically, but the Local Churches in general, this may have been in the vision in the 1970's but these points indicate how much the vision has changed.
In 1988 when a core of elders from the Church in Anaheim resigned, they went into further detail to show how the vision has changed.
Of points above the two that have been distinctly lacking from the recovery for many years:

4. To seek universal fellowship with Christians for the testimony of God.
(in the ministry LSM publishes, fellowship indicates according to the One Publication. More or less.)
5. To minister spiritual and temporal needs of the poor, sick, orphans, and widows according to brethren love inspired by God.
(Sadly, this been deferred to non-LSM affiliated Christianity and non-profit organizations to fill this need. From my experience, the primary concern is to appear in the meetings and if you speak, speak according to a LSM publication. How could "the brothers" know spiritual and temporal needs if they don't visit the poor, sick, etc? There's a certain regimin in the so-called churchlife, but it doesn't include contacting or visiting brothers and sisters. Only maintaining the meetinglife.)

As the Lord said to the church in Ephesus, You have left your 1st love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the 1st works.

We can repent and do the 1st works.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

As the Lord said to the church in Ephesus, You have left your 1st love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the 1st works.

We can repent and do the 1st works.

VoiceInWilderness, amen!