A lost soul

[Cal]

Essentially the grip the LC had on us was this: They taught us to appreciate God, but did not teach us how to get God ourselves. We were trained to get him through the movement. Remove the movement and we couldn't get God, or so we were conditioned.

People who still struggle with memories of the LC do so because they still, to some extent, have not learned how to get God on their own. Why? Because they've never really gotten serious enough about doing so. Now, they may have worried, or fretted, or cried about it. But God doesn't respond to that. He responds to FAITH. And if you don't have faith, you're not going to get him. It's that simple. **

Did you ever wonder why the LC never talked about faith much? They reason is they don't really value it. They value assenting to the group much more than they value faith. In fact, a person of real faith is a threat to the LC because they can't control him. They want people who will wring their hands because they missed a "meeting" and don't know how to get God in any other way. The whole system is based on keeping people weak enough so they need the system. This is why they bad-mouth "spiritual giants." To them a normal Christian is one who must get everything through others, never directly from God. And they've manufactured a bunch of them.

These guys who go back after years never overcame that conditioning. They got institutionalized. They never developed their own faith in God.

** "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." Hebrews 11:6.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

These guys who go back after years never overcame that conditioning. They got institutionalized. They never developed their own faith in God.

I've seen this, and know a brother in Miami that this would apply to; who said: "I don't want to know anything negative, even if it's true."

But it wouldn't fit Hosepipe, of Elden Hall fame. Because of his time in Elden he knew what a Spirit led meeting was.

He was one of the three bros (I being one) that got excommunicated by Mel Porter in the C. in Ft. Lauderdale. But he had already walked away, telling me that there was no Holy Spirit in the meetings.

But after a few years God started bugging him to go back, he told me. Hosepipe said no. God said yes. Hose said no, God said yes. Hose said no. So forth and so on, until Hosepipe relented.

When he went back he had to face the elders, who said he could come to meetings but couldn't speak.

After a few months of silence, you know how brothers get, one of them troubled by Hosepipe's lack of joining in, started openly bugging him to testify. He looked at the elders and they shook their heads yes.

That was the beginning of the end for the C. in Ft. Lauderdale.

Eventually Hoser called them all into deciding who they were going to follow, the Holy Spirit or Witness Lee ; God or Lee? The meeting exploded with anger and fists, and almost broke out into a fight.

After that meeting the Lee loyalists went and declared the ground in Boca Raton. While the non-Lee loyalists stayed in Ft. Lauderdale.

And now, there is no C. in Ft. Lauderdale, and the C. in Boca, after 30 yrs, hasn't grown from the 40 members that started it.

And Hosepipe declares that God sent him back as a prophet.

Following God causes havoc to human institutions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And Hosepipe declares that God sent him back as a prophet.

Following God causes havoc to human institutions.

I have a close LC friend who basically says that if no one is offended by your sharing, then perhaps you are not faithful to the Lord and His word. People hating us for speaking for Christ is part of following the Lord.

Igzy shared:

"Did you ever wonder why the LC never talked about faith much? They reason is they don't really value it. They value assenting to the group much more than they value faith. In fact, a person of real faith is a threat to the LC because they can't control him. They want people who will wring their hands because they missed a "meeting" and don't know how to get God in any other way. The whole system is based on keeping people weak enough so they need the system. This is why they bad-mouth "spiritual giants." To them a normal Christian is one who must get everything through others, never directly from God. And they've manufactured a bunch of them."

This is so very true--here Igzy nails it. The LC has become a mediator between them and God. This is what creates the fear and the desperate need.

Over and over I tell my spouse that there is only ONE mediator between God and man--Christ! It never sinks in. I point out that we will each face judgment alone before Christ with no church at our side. Each of us must answer individually and this totally negates the power of the church to "get us there" since they are not there to advocate for us or take part of the blame. (This, of course, is obvious.)

And regarding the HWFMR, I note this: at the top of each page are a couple of "chunks" or Bible verses and then two full pages of what Lee or Nee has to say about those "chunks". Therefore, we are steeped in what men have to say about God's Word rather than what IT says directly to each of us in our own situation and growth. I no longer read it at all, but my spouse relies on this almost completely for "time with the Lord". It is really quite boring and full of strange statements that pop up and are seemingly accepted by everyone. There is never any serious examination or discussion about what is being taught and whether or not it is correct.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

...........Following God causes havoc to human institutions.

More like RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS... havoc among religious institutions... hmmm... well... let's see here... religous institutions are made up of humans... therefore making them human institutions...

ok. I stand corrected !

Love Ya all!
Carol

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

More like RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS... havoc among religious institutions... hmmm... well... let's see here... religous institutions are made up of humans... therefore making them human institutions...

ok. I stand corrected !

Love Ya all!
Carol

And whether right or wrong I stand with ya sister.

A book published in 1978, “Snapping” helped me understand “what just happened” when I left the LC after 9 years in 3 different local churches (because of migration) in 1978. It was the first step in a long process of understanding what I went through as I tried to extract myself from the local church experience which was so overwhelmingly addictive (the words of the oracle, the friendships that develop, the time spent pray reading, reading etc). It goes back to our “born again experience” where on pages 32-34 in “Snapping” it states, “Among Christians in America, this powerful experience is…a surprising widespread occurrence….the experience of enlightenment is a completely natural one. Stripped of its supernatural components, it is simply a moment of fundamental human growth, of overwhelming feeling and understanding when an individual pushes through to those higher levels of consciousness that distinguish us as human beings.” My experience has been that because we associate this experience with the context of our environment (a Christian fundamental church as opposed to a Buddhist temple, for example) we associate it with being a Christian and believing in God, Jesus, and the HS.

The born again experience translates to those who have gone into the local church. There is a sense of enlightenment when we become a part of the local church which often gives us the feeling that “we have found it” with “it” being the ultimate answers in our lives. Everything we think or do subsequently seemingly reinforces our original feelings of enlightenment of being in the local church where we hear or read the words of the apostle of our time. (btw—I knew WL who asked me to move from Santa Cruz, CA to Detroit, MI in 1971 which I did) The Bible is enlightened by “HIS” words. Just think how unique that experience becomes when we literally believe we have found the ultimate truth and experience in our lifetime. Wow, that is so wonderful which leads us to more enlightened experiences. How could we not become more enlightened when we have heard the oracle of the world and understand the faith which we have given ourselves? Among the 5 billion people in the world we are the lucky ones who have found the absolute truth in the universe. It is just amazing, isn’t it? That is why the blended brothers’ words (who I presume are an extension of WL since there was not an apostle who followed) are so appreciated (check out cognitive dissonance). I brought many to Christ and many into the local churches because I was a true believer so I understand quite well what it is all about.

One of the problems in the local church is that they only try to proselytize other Christians and shy away from actually going out and preaching the gospel to the unconverted. I guess that is because there is this belief that those in the local church are at a higher spiritual level and really don’t need to preach the gospel to the unsaved. Thus, the local churches don’t grow.

[Eph]

Thanks for sharing, Dave. From your other post, you might have suggested that for some left the local churches, it might be better for them just stay in that realm. Please correct me if I misunderstood that. Could you offer any insight as how to overcome the aftermath? It is not easy for some of us to stay postive after leaving the local churches. As I read along posts on the forum, I see more and more positive examples that make me very comforting and know that the Lord is taking care of us.

Eph
I wish there was an easy answer but if you can extricate yourself from the LC, stay out. I don’t just mean stay out of the local church, I mean dump the doctrines, ideas and ‘benefits” you think you received. Otherwise you will never “get out”. If you come to realize that you have nothing of any benefit from the local church to offer to anyone you will begin the transition of finding freedom. The only real benefit I received was realizing that Christian churches in general (of course there are exceptions) are not going to help any of us. They are fragmented and broken. We all hoped the local churches would be the answer but what we found out was that they are as fragmented and broken as the rest of Christianity. Of course, we all are fragmented and broken and we need each other and the divinity within each of us but we don't need a church which makes us its prisoners.

This is a process and it takes some level of determination to leave and stay out. When I left in 1978 it was after I had brought in to the LC most of my 30 relatives as well as others from various university campuses and I just left. I didn’t want to contact them because I had already brought them in and I didn’t want to influence them again. Actually, I realized what a mess it was and I was concerned about trying to “help them” as I thought I was when I brought them into the church. I figured I had done enough damage. But, guess what? None of them ever called me and asked me why I left. Why? I presume they were under the spell of the elders. Who knows? I am now friends with most of them on “facebook”. One of my cousins recently told me that because I influenced his parents to follow me in a migration he was left behind to fend for himself at school and it really affected his life almost 40 years ago.

At the time I poured myself into my work and then in 1997 I emerged out from under all of it although I went through a process over the twenty years in between.

As I stated, it starts with determination to leave and get out and then the rest is dependent on each person and who they are inside. If you can break the dependency of the local church you have a chance. Especially if you can break the guilt trip they give you. I disagree with some who say that as long as you focus on Jesus that is all that matters. If that is important for you, than fine, but it is not essential. Again, it is a guilt trip especially emphasized by the local church. About 3 years ago I extricated myself from all the books associated with the LC (e.g. Watchman Nee, C.A. Coates etc) by selling them on ebay and I dumped the rest that I had been carrying around with me for 30 years. Maybe you had the experience of burnings where you burned things from your past at LC meetings. After you leave the LC you have to burn your past of the LC to grow as a person. Take it one step at a time—don’t rush anything other than get out and stay out. I hope this helps answer your question in some way. Hope you are doing well. Take care.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

A book published in 1978, “Snapping” helped me understand “what just happened” when I left the LC . . .

. . . It goes back to our “born again experience” where on pages 32-34 in “Snapping” it states, “Among Christians in America, this powerful experience is…a surprising widespread occurrence….

Those long ago smart aleck's, Socrates, Pluto, & Aristotle, 500 yrs circa before Jesus walked the earth, spoke of this sudden drastic change that came over people. They referred to it as a Katharsis.

So, bro Dave and all, "Snapping" has been going on a long long time ... prolly back into prehistory ... archaeology may one day confirm.