Became or Not Became - Interpreting 1Cor 15:45

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

So, it seems to me, our experiences must be front and center in this discussion.

Then a important question to ask is: Does the outcome of our understanding of 15:45, however it turns out, have any affect on our present experiences of God?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Then a important question to ask is: Does the outcome of our understanding of 15:45, however it turns out, have any affect on our present experiences of God?

Well, yes and no. If the interpretation hinders a valid way God is to experienced, maybe. But you may be looking for an otherwise valid truth in a verse that really doesn't teach it. I believe the Son and the Spirit are so closely related that sometimes it is hard (and pointless) to try and tell them apart (Roman 8:9-11 supports this.) However, just because Christ and the Spirit seem in some cases interchangeable, that doesn't mean that interpreting 15:45 to be about that is correct, even though the general idea is.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Then a important question to ask is: Does the outcome of our understanding of 15:45, however it turns out, have any affect on our present experiences of God?

It isn't only our present experience that is relevant is it? Why wouldn't any professed experience of zoe life and/or pneuma be relevant to a zoe-life giving pneuma? Has anybody concluded that 15:45 is purely eschatological? Anybody?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

Then a important question to ask is: Does the outcome of our understanding of 15:45, however it turns out, have any affect on our present experiences of God?

While I understand the idea of the "present experience of God," I often wonder if we are often talking about getting a feeling due to following a particular practice rather than trying to be the image bearers of God exercising Godly love and righteousness in all of our living.

In other words, we have become conditioned to think of experiencing God as an activity in and for itself when I'm not sure that is what it is about. I'm not saying that there is no experience of God. But much of what people point to as the "experiencing" stuff seems to be stated as facts that we should be appreciating and that should be encouraging us to live as we are commanded rather than feeling like we have been "touched by an angel" or something like that.

So, at some level, the outcome of our analysis of 1 Cor 15:45 should have no real effect on us. Just on the elimination of a distraction from the task of living rather than just thinking about and claiming to know it all.

Besides, even if we accept that the verse is in the middle of a discussion about the nature of the body we will receive in resurrection, how much better do you understand it after reading it all? In my case, not much. In fact, there are still a lot of questions — if I thought they were important to raise. I think Paul is just saying enough to focus the Corinthians on the truth of the resurrection and that there is an example of what is to come (even if we really don't have a complete understanding of what that example tells us). Then get back to something more important. I wouldn't call the Corinthians' question irrelevant or unimportant. The resurrection is important. But whether we can do a Star Trek-like transport from one place to another, or fly like an angel with wings, or carry harps, or there are actual streets of gold just isn't really something to expend a lot of time and brain-power on. It is a promise of something much better and it will be what it will be. Appreciate it in its vagueness.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

While I understand the idea of the "present experience of God," I often wonder if we are often talking about getting a feeling due to following a particular practice rather than trying to be the image bearers of God exercising Godly love and righteousness in all of our living.

In other words, we have become conditioned to think of experiencing God as an activity in and for itself when I'm not sure that is what it is about.

Abiding in God, and practicing the presence, are real experiences to me. Is it a delusion, or wishful thinking, on my part? I suppose it could be, but it's important to me. I'm flawed and need it.

Not the it makes me a spiritual giant, in any way. I don't think it sets me apart. It actually humbles me, and makes me feel small, in the grandeur of it all.

I had what I thought to be at the time, while in the local church, high peak spiritual experiences. Now I don't know what to make of it/them.

I have spiritual experiences still today ... but mostly of a cosmic sort ... oceanic, some call it. of omnipresence ... a sense of the unbounded limitlessness, or the eternal, perhaps. It's refreshing and energizing, and sometimes has helped me solve some seemingly impossible problems in life.

I don't really know what to make of it. Cuz there's no sense of being able to follow it, like what we imagine following the Holy Spirit would be like. But it can clear the mind, in times of turmoil and trouble, which can be a needed help.

But then, on the other hand, I haven't seen good results from those that claim to follow the Holy Spirit either. I'm close to a Christian now, that's been obsessed with following the Holy Spirit for decades. Her life is a serious mess, that she feels trapped in .. full of disappointment & dread ... with serious consequences for her and her family.

So I don't know. I need help; not just with understanding 15:45 ... but with the Spirit in general, whatever it is.

I really like Edwards' theory that the Holy Spirit is the love within the godhead.

I need love. Is the last Adam really, as Edwards might say, the life-giving LOVE?