The LCS Factor

Peter Debelak · 09-10-2008, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Peter,

You mentioned LCers as idolaters in your post. Personally, I have tried to be careful not to use that label. I am pointing at the sin of idolatry. I believe we are justified in Christ and must view each other in this light. However, this does not extend to ignoring sinful deeds. We are asked to confront sinful deeds in sincerity and truth with a right heart towards one another and the Lord. I know my addressment of this subject has brought me into question on this point (my heart towards others). I can't really defend myself on that issue.

Matt:

I think I wasn't clear. I mentioned "eating" only because Paul mentioned "not to even eat" with idolators - meaning, I think, not to even spend time with them.

I wasn't addressing your points about eating, I was addressing the fact that Paul specifically told the Corinthians that if there were idolators among them, they should not even eat (i.e. spend time with) such ones - they should, in fact, cast them out. That is, Paul defined idolatry in such a way that necessitated severe action. Does your definition of idolatry require the same severe action? The logic of your definition together with Paul's admonition would require me to refuse to sit down with anyone from the LC.

Secondly, I will challenge you on the "idolatrous"/"idolator" distinction. I am all for being careful not to confuse the person and the sin. But Paul's word in 1 Corinthians 5:11-12 was to Christians, each of which had been justified in Christ. In fact, he said that you don't need to necessarily stay away from unbelievers who are idolatrous (v. 10) - but you must refuse/cast out believers who are idolatrous.

How does one get from being "idolatrous" to being an "idolator"? I'd say, if they perpetuated idolatrous behavior unrepentantly even after being warned of their behavior, they've crossed into "idolator" territory. Thus, if the behavior in the LC is "idolatrous," then I think you skirt the issue by not saying they are "idolators" and all that goes with that. If we are going to be serious about idolatry, then we pursue it to its logical and scriptural conclusions. If the behavior you speak of is idolatry - the same idolatry that Paul was witnessing in Corinth - then we must not even sit down at a table with someone from the LC. Definitions have consequences. Defining something as "idolatry" has this consequence, according to the Word.

At one point, Thankful mentioned certain behavior being "in the principle of idolatry." Given that our response to real idolatry must be so stark (i.e. cast out the idolators), I think it is real dangerous to begin talking about the "in the principle of idolatry".

Does that clarify the point I was trying to make?

Peter

Paul Cox · 09-10-2008, 08:53 AM

Peter,

What I like about the truth is that it is simple. The Lord didn't put it out of reach of those who aren't so "smart." You have nailed it in a simple way, and that should put the whole "idolatry" thing to rest. But somehow I know it won’t. "Theologians" love to opine.

When Paul told the Corinthians that they shouldn't eat with idolaters, he simply meant not to eat with people who literally worship idols. We must keep the historical context in mind, always, when we read these dated writings.

There were those who literally worshiped graven images, and even offered up their food to these idols. You are right. He meant don't spend time with those who literally bow themselves to idols. It’s not any more complicated than that. Witness Lee had a knack for taking simple teachings in the Bible and blowing them up into mushrooms of “truth.” I think that’s what’s going on here.

If Paul would have had Matt's definition of idolatry in mind, his word about not eating with idolaters would have effectively disbanded the whole church.

According to his definition, those who said they were of Paul, were guilty of worshiping him as an idol. Those who said they were of Apollos, likewise, would have been guilty of idolatry, and so on. The very few in the church in Corinth who didn't engage in "idolatry," would have been forbidden from eating with those who say they are of whomever. Isn't the problem with the Living Stream Church that they basically say: "I am of Lee."

As members of His Body, joined to Him as our ascended Head, we are indeed called upon to extend His mercy and grace to all the brothers and sisters, while at the same time discerning the system. A consciousness of the Body of Christ (and I don't mean "the baaaaaaaahdy") is indeed one of the wonderful things that we have inherited from the teachings of Sparks, Nee, and even to a degree Lee. It balances our selfish tendency to only focus on "Jesus and me."

Branding all the brothers and sisters who remain in the Local Church as “idolaters” it totally without His mercy. The word is clear that if we are harsh and merciless to others, we can expect the same from the Father.

Roger

Matt Anderson · 09-10-2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger

But somehow I know it won’t. "Theologians" love to opine.

Roger

Is your comment pointed at anyone else but me? If so, please state, for the record, who it is pointed at...

I'm tired of your jabs. Who would ever claim that I was a "theologian"? I wouldn't claim it. Do I think about things. Absolutely, yes. Why? Because my parents raised me in a sect (some say, cult) of Christianity and I've been forced to really think to clear all the crud out of my head.

I'll respond substantively to Peter, because he is bringing forward some very good things for consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger

Branding all the brothers and sisters who remain in the Local Church as “idolaters” it totally without His mercy. The word is clear that if we are harsh and merciless to others, we can expect the same from the Father.

For the record, I haven't done this and I wouldn't do it (branding all as "idolaters"). Did you ever once see me call anyone on the last forum a "cultist"? No. I rarely used the word cult.

I agree with you about mercy, but God is not slack with his mercy. You have to know that he is both holy and full of mercy. The two fit together. If you only focus on the mercy, then you err. If you only focus on the holiness, then you err.

Sorry, but I am going to start calling you out personally on some of your comments from now on.

Matt

P.S. I don't mind your substantive comments. You have a very bad habit of focusing things personally. I put up with it on the other forum as moderator out of care for you. I took a lot of heat for it. Let's call a spade a spade. You misbehaved there. You're doing it again.

Paul Cox · 09-10-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Is your comment pointed at anyone else but me? If so, please state, for the record, who it is pointed at...

I'm tired of your jabs. Who would ever claim that I was a "theologian"? I wouldn't claim it. Do I think about things. Absolutely, yes. Why? Because my parents raised me in a sect (some say, cult) of Christianity and I've been forced to really think to clear all the crud out of my head.

I'll respond substantively to Peter, because he is bringing forward some very good things for consideration.

For the record, I haven't done this and I wouldn't do it (branding all as "idolaters"). Did you ever once see me call anyone on the last forum a "cultist"? No. I rarely used the word cult.

I agree with you about mercy, but God is not slack with his mercy. You have to know that he is both holy and full of mercy. The two fit together. If you only focus on the mercy, then you err. If you only focus on the holiness, then you err.

Sorry, but I am going to start calling you out personally on some of your comments from now on.

Matt

P.S. I don't mind your substantive comments. You have a very bad habit of focusing things personally. I put up with it on the other forum as moderator out of care for you. I took a lot of heat for it. Let's call a spade a spade. You misbehaved there. You're doing it again.

Matt,

You can call me out all you want to. I'm not scared of you. When you try to dominate a thread with your personal views, with volumes and volumes of posts, you come across as a "theologian."

I thought it reasonable that you start an idolatry thread. You insist that you would rather make idolatry the main focus of abuse in the Local Church. Many here don’t agree with that view, but your barrel ahead anyway.

Over at the Bereans forum you could shut me down and lock my threads whenever you wanted to. Over here you can probably effectively do the same. Go for it. I don't care. You want to talk about misbehavior on the other forum, your hands are not clean. You struggled hard to stay moderator over there, now there is almost nothing left to moderate.

Roger

Matt Anderson · 09-10-2008, 10:42 AM

You don't have to be afraid of me. However, I don't have to put up with your misbehavior when it is directed at me. I can call you out on it and tell you that I think it is wrong.

I never claimed to be clean. I've had to repent on a number of occasions. I don't paint myself white. It's not appropriate. I treated you well on the other forum and you know it. Moderating you was the exception and not the rule.

Matt

Hope · 09-10-2008, 10:49 AM

Dear Matt,

You asked a poster,

"Final Question: Did you or did you not give your allegiance to the "the vision of the church" or "christ and the church" (intentionally or unintentionally)? If I didn't get it quite right, please tell me what you did give your allegiance to. Can you honestly say that you only gave your allegiance to Christ? This is what I am talking about. Right now, I'm asking about you. After you answer this, then begin to ask yourself who did not do this?

I think this is one of the questions you asked me or something like it. (I have lost track of Matt's questions for me and have asked him to PM me with his list. I will try to answer.)

The key word is allegiance. I always considered my allegiance to be to Christ. On the other hand, there is 2 Cor 8:5, and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God. NASB
At times we will join with others in our service to the Lord. We are not Lone Rangers but rather members one of another.

We all should have some vision regarding the full counsel of God, Acts 20:27, For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. NKJV

As far as what we are doing as a believer in Christ, our Christian service and work needs to be with a clear view or vision.

1 Cor 3:10-15,
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire. NASB

We cannot claim our allegiance is only to Christ and then conduct ourselves without regard to the Will of God.

Col 4:11-12
12 Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God. NASB

Heb 10:36
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. NASB

1 Peter 4:2
2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. NASB

1 John 2:17
17 And the world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God abides forever. NASB

Also consider the following passage:
2 Thess 3:4-5
4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command. 5 And may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ. NASB

While we are seeking to have our allegiance to Christ alone, it is okay to be open for fellowship. But our ability to fully follow the Lord and be pleasing to Him depends on our being willing to be directed by the Lord Himself. But to be directed by the Lord Himself does not mean we never listen to anyone else or receive wise counsel from another saint or have no guiding principles. For example, I would never accept someone declaring they are following only Christ and that Christ has led them to abandon their children.

In Christ Jesus there is Hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

09-10-2008, 08:53 AM	#2
Paul Cox Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 181	The truth is simple Peter, What I like about the truth is that it is simple. The Lord didn't put it out of reach of those who aren't so "smart." You have nailed it in a simple way, and that should put the whole "idolatry" thing to rest. But somehow I know it won’t. "Theologians" love to opine. When Paul told the Corinthians that they shouldn't eat with idolaters, he simply meant not to eat with people who literally worship idols. We must keep the historical context in mind, always, when we read these dated writings. There were those who literally worshiped graven images, and even offered up their food to these idols. You are right. He meant don't spend time with those who literally bow themselves to idols. It’s not any more complicated than that. Witness Lee had a knack for taking simple teachings in the Bible and blowing them up into mushrooms of “truth.” I think that’s what’s going on here. If Paul would have had Matt's definition of idolatry in mind, his word about not eating with idolaters would have effectively disbanded the whole church. According to his definition, those who said they were of Paul, were guilty of worshiping him as an idol. Those who said they were of Apollos, likewise, would have been guilty of idolatry, and so on. The very few in the church in Corinth who didn't engage in "idolatry," would have been forbidden from eating with those who say they are of whomever. Isn't the problem with the Living Stream Church that they basically say: "I am of Lee." As members of His Body, joined to Him as our ascended Head, we are indeed called upon to extend His mercy and grace to all the brothers and sisters, while at the same time discerning the system. A consciousness of the Body of Christ (and I don't mean "the baaaaaaaahdy") is indeed one of the wonderful things that we have inherited from the teachings of Sparks, Nee, and even to a degree Lee. It balances our selfish tendency to only focus on "Jesus and me." Branding all the brothers and sisters who remain in the Local Church as “idolaters” it totally without His mercy. The word is clear that if we are harsh and merciless to others, we can expect the same from the Father. Roger

09-10-2008, 10:42 AM	#5
Matt Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 155	You don't have to be afraid of me. However, I don't have to put up with your misbehavior when it is directed at me. I can call you out on it and tell you that I think it is wrong. I never claimed to be clean. I've had to repent on a number of occasions. I don't paint myself white. It's not appropriate. I treated you well on the other forum and you know it. Moderating you was the exception and not the rule. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-10-2008 at 12:46 PM.

09-10-2008, 10:49 AM	#6
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	Key Word is Allegiance Dear Matt, You asked a poster, "Final Question: Did you or did you not give your allegiance to the "the vision of the church" or "christ and the church" (intentionally or unintentionally)? If I didn't get it quite right, please tell me what you did give your allegiance to. Can you honestly say that you only gave your allegiance to Christ? This is what I am talking about. Right now, I'm asking about you. After you answer this, then begin to ask yourself who did not do this? I think this is one of the questions you asked me or something like it. (I have lost track of Matt's questions for me and have asked him to PM me with his list. I will try to answer.) The key word is allegiance. I always considered my allegiance to be to Christ. On the other hand, there is 2 Cor 8:5, and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God. NASB At times we will join with others in our service to the Lord. We are not Lone Rangers but rather members one of another. We all should have some vision regarding the full counsel of God, Acts 20:27, For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. NKJV As far as what we are doing as a believer in Christ, our Christian service and work needs to be with a clear view or vision. 1 Cor 3:10-15, 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire. NASB We cannot claim our allegiance is only to Christ and then conduct ourselves without regard to the Will of God. Col 4:11-12 12 Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God. NASB Heb 10:36 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. NASB 1 Peter 4:2 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. NASB 1 John 2:17 17 And the world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God abides forever. NASB Also consider the following passage: 2 Thess 3:4-5 4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command. 5 And may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ. NASB While we are seeking to have our allegiance to Christ alone, it is okay to be open for fellowship. But our ability to fully follow the Lord and be pleasing to Him depends on our being willing to be directed by the Lord Himself. But to be directed by the Lord Himself does not mean we never listen to anyone else or receive wise counsel from another saint or have no guiding principles. For example, I would never accept someone declaring they are following only Christ and that Christ has led them to abandon their children. In Christ Jesus there is Hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge