Became or Not Became - Interpreting 1Cor 15:45

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by zeek

The writers of the Bible had a clear understanding of what was meant by spirit. That understanding has been lost to us in modern Western society to a large extent. That's why some of us were receptive to the teachings of Nee and Lee on the human spirit.

An interesting thing is that the apostle Paul was actually fighting against the kind of mentality that separated the physical from the spiritual. This is a huge, huge linchpin in understanding this eminently crucial dynamic of the resurrection and it's implications, both in the present and in the future, for all believers in the Christian gospel, from the beginning until His second coming.

As zeek as pointed out, at the time of the New Testament, there was much more of an awareness of the spiritual side of life. Check out this quote from the Roman stoic, Seneca (a contemporary of the apostle Paul):

God is near you, he is with you, he is within you. This is what I mean..a holy spirit indwells within us, one who marks our good and bad deeds, and is our guardian.... No man can be good without the help of God http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Younger

Sounds almost Judeo-Christian, but this man was NOT speaking of the Holy Spirit of the true and living God of the Bible. As a matter of fact, it was neither the Spirit of God nor anything remotely holy. It is this kind of mentality, this kind of philosophy, that Paul was dealing with when he wrote this epistle to the church in Corinth. To the way of thinking of most in the Corinthian society, there was not much connection with the present, physical world and the afterlife. Our physical bodies were only temporary vessels that would totally and absolutely cease to exist in the afterlife. But Paul knew this was not true. He knew that there was going to be a physical, bodily resurrection - and he was trying to show the Corinthians that the Lord Jesus had actually gone through this resurrection, and had received his resurrected, "spiritual body".

Lots more to say.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Seneca

God is near you, he is with you, he is within you. This is what I mean..a holy spirit indwells within us, one who marks our good and bad deeds, and is our guardian.... No man can be good without the help of God

Sounds like a mishmash god to me. If Senecas' holy spirit wasn't holy or spirit, neither was Witness Lees'.

And after reading the Wiki link you provided, Seneca appears to resemble Watchman Nee ; as his walk failed to live up to his talk.

But he was "Our Seneca," er, ah, "Our Watchman Nee."

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sounds like a mishmash god to me. If Senecas' holy spirit wasn't holy or spirit, neither was Witness Lees'.

And after reading the Wiki link you provided, Seneca appears to resemble Watchman Nee ; as his walk failed to live up to his talk.

But he was "Our Seneca," er, ah, "Our Watchman Nee."

I don't think anybody is suggesting that you take Seneca on board as your new MOTA. What is being claimed, as I understand it, is that Seneca had an everyday kind of understanding of spirit. UntoHim's quote is evidence that he did. Stoicism was an alternative to Christianity which could not assimilate the Stoic attitude even though Stoicism influenced of the Stoic doctrines of the Logos and of the natural moral law on both Christian dogmatics and ethics. A critical difference remained between between the acceptance of cosmic resignation in Stoicism and the faith in cosmic salvation in Christianity. Christian Church defeated Stoicism in the Roman era.

[awareness]

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

An interesting thing is that the apostle Paul was actually fighting against the kind of mentality that separated the physical from the spiritual. This is a huge, huge linchpin in understanding this eminently crucial dynamic of the resurrection and it's implications, both in the present and in the future, for all believers in the Christian gospel, from the beginning until His second coming.

As zeek as pointed out, at the time of the New Testament, there was much more of an awareness of the spiritual side of life. Check out this quote from the Roman stoic, Seneca (a contemporary of the apostle Paul):
Sounds almost Judeo-Christian, but this man was NOT speaking of the Holy Spirit of the true and living God of the Bible. As a matter of fact, it was neither the Spirit of God nor anything remotely holy. It is this kind of mentality, this kind of philosophy, that Paul was dealing with when he wrote this epistle to the church in Corinth. To the way of thinking of most in the Corinthian society, there was not much connection with the present, physical world and the afterlife. Our physical bodies were only temporary vessels that would totally and absolutely cease to exist in the afterlife. But Paul knew this was not true. He knew that there was going to be a physical, bodily resurrection - and he was trying to show the Corinthians that the Lord Jesus had actually gone through this resurrection, and had received his resurrected, "spiritual body".

Lots more to say.

Good stuff. Seneca had a Stoic understanding of spirit which was not at all strange for his time. One question though. What is your claim that "Paul knew" based on? Isn't it more plausible to suppose that Paul was human like the rest of us and that he based his beliefs on his experience?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by zeek

One question though. What is your claim that "Paul knew" based on? Isn't it more plausible to suppose that Paul was human like the rest of us and that he based his beliefs on his experience?

Well, I guess many things could be plausible, but what is most probable is that Paul's knowledge of what he wrote about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 is base upon "the revelation Jesus Christ", which he received directly from God.

For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:11,12

And this is not referring to his initial experience (in Acts 9 when he was knocked to the ground and heard the voice "Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me"), for he continues with: I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem ..Galatians 1:16-18

So there was a three year period that Paul was receiving "a revelation", and I think there is a lot of evidence that many of the deeper and mysterious things he wrote about in his epistles he received directed form God during this 3 year period. He was pretty clear to the Galatians: For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, - I believe that it was during this period of time that Paul received a revelation directly from God regarding the things he wrote to the Corinthians all those years ago.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Well, I guess many things could be plausible, but what is most probable is that Paul's knowledge of what he wrote about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 is base upon "the revelation Jesus Christ", which he received directly from God.

For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:11,12

And this is not referring to his initial experience (in Acts 9 when he was knocked to the ground and hear the voice "Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me"), for he continues with: I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem ..Galatians 1:16-18

So there was a three year period that Paul was receiving "a revelation", and I think there is a lot of evidence that many of the deeper and mysterious things he wrote about in his epistles he received directed form God during this 3 year period. He was pretty clear to the Galatians: For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, - I believe that it was during this period of time that Paul received a revelation directly from God regarding the things he wrote to the Corinthians all those years ago.

As the gravity of a star warps the space-time continuum around it, so does an encounter with the Divine Inexplicable seem to warp the categories of reason. Paul fell into the well of eternity where distinctions between an instant and three years fall apart. But, Paul didn't claim to be God himself. So, I assume that he had an ordinary human cognitive apparatus like the rest of us.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

As the gravity of a star warps the space-time continuum around it, so does an encounter with the Divine Inexplicable seem to warp the categories of reason. Paul fell into the well of eternity where distinctions between an instant and three years fall apart. But, Paul didn't claim to be God himself. So, I assume that he had an ordinary human cognitive apparatus like the rest of us.

Paul said he was sharing a mystery with the Corinthians ; a mystery that hasn't come to pass for them yet.

And part of that mystery was the life-giving spirit.

That Lee claimed to solve that mystery, that, life-giving spirit meant Jesus, the last Adam, is the Holy Spirit, is to claim he had special, different, insight into the mystery Paul was writing.

Is such a claim blasphemy against the Spirit? Isn't it blasphemy if it's not true?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by zeek

As the gravity of a star warps the space-time continuum around it, so does an encounter with the Divine Inexplicable seem to warp the categories of reason. Paul fell into the well of eternity where distinctions between an instant and three years fall apart. But, Paul didn't claim to be God himself. So, I assume that he had an ordinary human cognitive apparatus like the rest of us.

Boy, this might be the first time "the space-time continuum" was mentioned on the forum...guess there's a first time for everything. I think Paul describes his experience in about as much detail as he could muster in 2 Corinthians 12:

...I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

Pretty heady stuff from a conservative Jewish rabbi. I don't believe that "visions and revelations of the Lord" were part of the curriculum in 1st century Judaism. This was clearly a special and unique "experience" that Paul went through. I'm not altogether sure that this experience was through "an ordinary human cognitive apparatus like the rest of us", and since this experience was unique to Paul, I don't think it really matters one way or another.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Boy, this might be the first time "the space-time continuum" was mentioned on the forum...guess there's a first time for everything. I think Paul describes his experience in about as much detail as he could muster in 2 Corinthians 12:

...I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

Pretty heady stuff from a conservative Jewish rabbi. I don't believe that "visions and revelations of the Lord" were part of the curriculum in 1st century Judaism. This was clearly a special and unique "experience" that Paul went through. I'm not altogether sure that this experience was through "an ordinary human cognitive apparatus like the rest of us", and since this experience was unique to Paul, I don't think it really matters one way or another.

So when Paul said "I know a man," he was talking about himself? Why would Paul speak in the 3rd person, and switch to 1st person, and end it with:

2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Is Paul to us so beyond "an ordinary human cognitive apparatus like the rest of us" that we've got to attribute "I know a man" to Paul?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

So when Paul said "I know a man," he was talking about himself? Why would Paul speak in the 3rd person, and switch to 1st person, and end it with:

2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Is Paul to us so beyond "an ordinary human cognitive apparatus like the rest of us" that we've got to attribute "I know a man" to Paul?

It was an expression of humility. Paul was showing us what our attitude should be if and when we truly "see the vision." Number one, we shouldn't go around saying "Listen to me, blind moo-cows! I've seen the vision! Me! I! I, I, I!!" Like, well, you-know-who and his faithful followers did.

Paul struck a very different attitude.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So when Paul said "I know a man," he was talking about himself?

Yes, definitely.

Time wise, "fourteen years ago," may correspond with when Paul was stoned in Lystra during his first missionary journey. By all indications Paul was dead for some time before he came back to life. (Acts 14.19-20)

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Boy, this might be the first time "the space-time continuum" was mentioned on the forum...guess there's a first time for everything. I think Paul describes his experience in about as much detail as he could muster in 2 Corinthians 12:

...I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

Pretty heady stuff from a conservative Jewish rabbi. I don't believe that "visions and revelations of the Lord" were part of the curriculum in 1st century Judaism. This was clearly a special and unique "experience" that Paul went through. I'm not altogether sure that this experience was through "an ordinary human cognitive apparatus like the rest of us", and since this experience was unique to Paul, I don't think it really matters one way or another.

It very much matters whether Paul thought like an ordinary human being or not. For, if he didn't, how would we understand him or him us? But, there is much evidence that he was an ordinary human who thought pretty much like the rest of us. He didn't profess to have some kind of magical super-intelligence. And to support my claim, I have to look no further than the passage that you yourself quoted. Because there Paul states "I do not know" not once but twice. So we see that there was a limit to Paul's revelation. He who preached about natural and spiritual bodies with such authority in I Corinthians 15 admits here that he did not know if his own visions and revelations were in-the-body or out-of-body experiences.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

It very much matters whether Paul thought like an ordinary human being or not. For, if he didn't, how would we understand him or him us? But, there is much evidence that he was an ordinary human who thought pretty much like the rest of us. He didn't profess to have some kind of magical super-intelligence. And to support my claim, I have to look no further than the passage that you yourself quoted. Because there Paul states "I do not know" not once but twice. So we see that there was a limit to Paul's revelation. He who preached about natural and spiritual bodies with such authority in I Corinthians 15 admits here that he did not know if his own visions and revelations were in-the-body or out-of-body experiences.

2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

And we did just that ...