Theodicy of the Spirit

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

You know, when you read the Bible you'll say, "Gee, I wonder what bruther Aaron says about that verse".

Well if I'm gonna follow you first thing I need to know is: Are you aron, or Aaron?

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well if I'm gonna follow you first thing I need to know is: Are you aron, or Aaron?

Well my name is aron but if you want, you can call me Maximum Brother, or Max for short.

[awareness]

Okay Maximum Brother, let's get back on the brass tacks.

You say you want to see Spirit from the heavenly point of view. I'd like that too.

So I'm hopin' that yer gonna tell me how to see that way.

I suppose UntoHim will tell you the way to do that is thru the Bible ; that the Bible provides the heavenly view we're lookin' for.

Hey, I had one Church of Christ'er tell me the Bible is the Holy Spirit, based a verse that reads "the spirit of the word," somewh'ers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay Maximum Brother, let's get back on the brass tacks.

Actually I've decided to renounce my title as MB, aka Sir Max-alot. In a fit of sober-mindedness I realized that only Jesus is "the name above every name", and anyone else who presumes pride of place is in for a tough surprise. So I quit. Sorry.

Of course there are indeed apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers. But there are also wanna-be's, fakes and frauds. Along with people who for some weird reason need to be taken for a ride. I know; I was there once.

So better that we don't even joke here.

Originally Posted by awareness

You say you want to see Spirit from the heavenly point of view. I'd like that too.

So I'm hopin' that yer gonna tell me how to see that way.

As I said, I believe that we all "have the oracle", and the church is the place where our visions can be presented and pruned. You and I both remember when the Local Churches were really local and that happened, at least occasionally. So I'm not gonna do a "Lee" on you and tell you how to see the way. Anyone wants to be told the way, they can read a HWFMR outline. It is full of "we shoulds", "we needs", and "we have tos." I'm not that way and I resent it when anyone tries to tell me how to follow Jesus.

Instead I'll tell you what happened to me and you can figure out if it relates. As I said earlier, I began to focus more and more on the apostle John. Not that I am "of John", but rather I began to feel that John's writing could show me something about Jesus that I couldn't see anywhere else. John was there at the beginning, and also there at the end. His ministry book-ended the whole shebang. So, I wanted to see what John was trying to say to me.

But first I had my "we see Jesus" moment from Hebrews chapter 2: there, I suddenly realized that I was part of the "we" that could see Jesus, and it was in the present tense. It was me, and it was now! It was like when I saw the author of Hebrews seeing Jesus, I knew that I could also; a door was opened for my own experience. I just could believe, today, and see.

So I became determined to see, I guess. Then when I was in John's gospel, and I kept getting drawn to the first chapter, where John the Baptist was walking alone with 2 disciples and they met Jesus. That story climaxed in the utterance: "You will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man." Now, first I got curious: where did this imperative statement get fulfilled? Jesus said, "You will see" something, so it definitely happened. Then, as I was considering, spontaneously I began to pray, and began to declare, and even demand the same experience. I wanted to see heaven opened. I wanted to see the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. Jesus had said, "You will", so by faith I demanded fulfillment.

At that moment, everything began to change for me. The Bible just began to open up, and the "behind the scenes" stuff suddenly became apparent. All the miracles and speakings and wondrous works; suddenly behind them I could see "angels ascending and descending", etc. And this included the Spirit. This included the seven flames of fire before the throne. This included the seven eyes of the Lamb, which run to and fro throughout the earth. This included the angel talking to Hagar in the wilderness, and she said, "You are the God who sees me." Etc, etc. I just began to see it all. It became as real to me as any mind-picture of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle Earth when I was a kid.

Originally Posted by awareness

I suppose UntoHim will tell you the way to do that is thru the Bible ; that the Bible provides the heavenly view we're lookin' for.

Hey, I had one Church of Christ'er tell me the Bible is the Holy Spirit, based a verse that reads "the spirit of the word," somewh'ers.

The Bible provides the heavenly view, but we are all different. John 1:51 happened to open a "door to heaven" for me, but maybe some other verse or experience will guide you. Lee's experience in Paul's "God's economy" or "now the Lord is that Spirit" may have been watersheds for his consciousness. But Lee's vision ain't gonna become a law imposed upon my consciousness. If anyone out there needs it, surely Lee's BBs (or Chu or Dong or any other Apostle-lite) will be happy to run your life for you.

Instead, I see the church as a place not to get visions from others but to present our own visions. And then a 'zeek' or an 'Igzy' will come along and say, "not so fast", because otherwise you might run off the rails. Because although it's inspiring to see visions, the church is where rubber hits road. Like OBW said, ultimately it's not about your talking the talk, it's about your walking the walk.

Certainly I've talked some kind of talk here. But how much is "self" and how much is "God"? I really don't know. So I don't take myself or even my visions too seriously. But I believe God is real, and I believe the door to heaven is open, and the Spirit is calling. And man, when you get a whiff of it, wow! You feel like that Samaritan woman: you wanna run around and shout, Come and see! Suddenly church becomes fun, if they'll let you talk. You can share your vision. Suddenly that guy next to you at work becomes a potential receptacle for the Spirit enlivening you. It can really be a blast. Suddenly you really feel that "wherever two or more are gathered in my name" stuff. It's real.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

As I said, I believe that we all "have the oracle", and the church is the place where our visions can be presented and pruned. . . .
. . . So I became determined to see, I guess. Then when I was in John's gospel, and I kept getting drawn to the first chapter, where John the Baptist was walking alone with 2 disciples and they met Jesus. That story climaxed in the utterance: "You will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man." Now, first I got curious: where did this imperative statement get fulfilled? Jesus said, "You will see" something, so it definitely happened. Then, as I was considering, spontaneously I began to pray, and began to declare, and even demand the same experience. I wanted to see heaven opened. I wanted to see the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. Jesus had said, "You will", so by faith I demanded fulfillment.

At that moment, everything began to change for me. The Bible just began to open up, and the "behind the scenes" stuff suddenly became apparent. All the miracles and speakings and wondrous works; suddenly behind them I could see "angels ascending and descending", etc. And this included the Spirit. This included the seven flames of fire before the throne. This included the seven eyes of the Lamb, which run to and fro throughout the earth. This included the angel talking to Hagar in the wilderness, and she said, "You are the God who sees me." Etc, etc. I just began to see it all. It became as real to me as any mind-picture of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle Earth when I was a kid.

The Bible provides the heavenly view, but we are all different. John 1:51 happened to open a "door to heaven" for me, but maybe some other verse or experience will guide you. Lee's experience in Paul's "God's economy" or "now the Lord is that Spirit" may have been watersheds for his consciousness. But Lee's vision ain't gonna become a law imposed upon my consciousness. If anyone out there needs it, surely Lee's BBs (or Chu or Dong or any other Apostle-lite) will be happy to run your life for you.

Instead, I see the church as a place not to get visions from others but to present our own visions. And then a 'zeek' or an 'Igzy' will come along and say, "not so fast", because otherwise you might run off the rails.

Well now that's quite a story. I feel left out. All around me people are having visions, and I don't.

Hosepipe, my friend of long standing (Since the C. in Ft. Lauderdale - he got the boot with me, sort of), had a vision some 15 yrs ago, and wrote it down in a furry. He's been trying to understand it ever since. And has made dogma out of some of it. I like to shoot holes thru it. He takes it waaaay tooooo seriously.

And I have a friend I made here in Kentucky, since moving here, at Al-Anon. She's been obsessed with following the Spirit for over 3 decades. She sees visions too.

In fact, she can be driving down the highway and a panoramic movie appears in the sky. She pulls over to watch it. Spends weeks trying to figure out what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell her.

She has visitations at 3am from God, who speaks to her.

You say the church provides a balance. When she shared her visions to some at her church, they balanced her right out the door. She doesn't share her visions at church no more.

I don't judge, she shares them with me. What do I know about visions? I try to provide balance. I tell her if anyone saw her following the Spirit, and its outcome in her life, they'd run the other way from the Spirit. She admits to that, but still has visitations and visions. I tell her that then she can expect more pain from God, if it keeps going as it's been going for her so far. She says, "What's up with that?"

She takes it waaaay toooo seriously, and it gets her in serious trouble.

I don't see like you guys. I get them vicariously. Can anyone spare some eye-salve?

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't see like you guys. I get them vicariously. Can anyone spare some eye-salve?

You know, there's an interesting story in the Bible. The crusty old prophet Elijah knows that it's his time to go home. So he tells his helper, "You have been faithful to me these many years. Tell me, what can I do for you? What do you want?" And the helper says, "Give me twice the Spirit that you have." The old prophet says, "Well, that's a tall order. But tell you what: if you see me go, you'll get the double Spirit."

So the helper watches day and night, and sure enough, one day along comes the chariot and swoops up the old dude. The young'un runs along after, shouting, "My father, my father - the horses and chariots of Israel!!"

So I wonder; who was his father, that he espied? Elisha, Sr? Elijah the prophet? Or, "our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name"? I kinda suspect the latter.

So I reckon, maybe I've never seen heaven open, but Elisha did. Maybe I've never seen the New Jerusalem descend out of heaven, but John did, there on Patmos. Maybe I've never seen the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man, but Nathanael did. Maybe I can't see God, but by faith I see in a mirror, darkly. Maybe I also get visions vicariously. And maybe that's good enough.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

You know, there's an interesting story in the Bible. The crusty old prophet Elijah knows that it's his time to go home. So he tells his helper, "You have been faithful to me these many years. Tell me, what can I do for you? What do you want?" And the helper says, "Give me twice the Spirit that you have." The old prophet says, "Well, that's a tall order. But tell you what: if you see me go, you'll get the double Spirit."

So the helper watches day and night, and sure enough, one day along comes the chariot and swoops up the old dude. The young'un runs along after, shouting, "My father, my father - the horses and chariots of Israel!!".

Are you talking about old bald head, who had she bears render 42 silly children into pieces?

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

So I reckon, maybe I've never seen heaven open, but Elisha did. Maybe I've never seen the New Jerusalem descend out of heaven, but John did, there on Patmos. Maybe I've never seen the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man, but Nathanael did. Maybe I can't see God, but by faith I see in a mirror, darkly. Maybe I also get visions vicariously.

Even if I don't see Jesus, I can apprehend that others have, and follow by faith. To me that is the great message of the epistle to the Hebrews. The author did not see Jesus but nonetheless believed and followed (btw, would Paul have written (2:3) that the gospel of salvation came "to us by those who heard Him[Jesus]"? I doubt it. Paul's revelation clearly came from God). And now the writer of Hebrews holds up the OT text and says to us, "we see Jesus".

To me, the Bible does not end with the New Jerusalem descending out of heaven but rather with the apostle John, while on Patmos yet in the Spirit carried away to a high mountain, seeing the New Jerusalem descend. I may not see the New Jerusalem but in the text I can apprehend that John does. I believe and follow. I see the author of Hebrews seeing Christ in the pages of scriptural text. I agree, and struggle to enter in.

In Bethany, I do not see Jesus but I see Mary's face as she gazes upon him. In 2 Kings I don't see the Father but see Elisha running after the chariot and shouting. And so on. In the Bible I can by faith attach myself to the visions of those who have gone before.

And so it is with the Spirit. It is right there, described in the text, in words I cannot comprehend but can believe and struggle to obey. "You hear the sound of it" (John 3:8) is a good analogy: like the breeze through the trees we have ample evidence of its existence, but by definition we cannot own it; it has to be free to move where it (i.e. the Father) wills. So it's not something that will fit in our conceptual box. Again and again, your concepts will be broken if you let the Spirit in.

I guess my point is that we are probably too small for our vision to contain God. And yet I struggle. What else in life is worth doing, except to return home to my Father in heaven?

Anyway, I'll repeat what apparently needs repeating: any vision that separates or divides us from the flock is not what we are after here. Exaltation does not equal isolation. Get over that stupid notion.