Became or Not Became - Interpreting 1Cor 15:45

[OBW]

Originally Posted by zeek

Thank you for your help. But, I'm still in a bit of a quandary. If Paul meant "spiritual body" in I Corinthians 15:45B, why didn't he say so? In other words, why did Paul not say, " The last Adam became a life-giving spiritual body?" You are claiming that is what he meant. He has no problem saying "spiritual body" in the preceding verse. So, if he meant to say that in 15:45, presumably he could have. Why didn't he say, "spiritual body" here?

You admit that Paul had just said spiritual body in the preceding verse. Why then is it presumed that the omission of the word "body" in the next verse is somehow trying to go somewhere different in the discussion since the discussion continues and Paul immediately refers back to the body as being "spiritual."

In that kind of context, the understanding that "spirit" in v 45 is synonymous with the spiritual body referred to immediately before and after is too obvious. Unless you have been influenced by someone who argued for so long that it has to mean something else.

If it actually means something else, please provide sound reasoning as to what it means without causing the verse to become a "squirrel" moment that really had no place in the discussion. Lee's version did not make the cut. Do you have another?

The understanding of 15:45 as referring to a spiritual body without saying it is too obvious an explanation to need to be proved against a fabrication like Lee inserted. It is Lee's version that needs proof.

Besides. If you were there in that room with the doors closed and Jesus suddenly appeared, even though you could touch him, you would have insisted that he was some kind of spirit since he then disappeared without opening the door and walking out. Where is the problem with the understanding in 1 Cor 15:45?? I can't find it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

You admit that Paul had just said spiritual body in the preceding verse. Why then is it presumed that the omission of the word "body" in the next verse is somehow trying to go somewhere different in the discussion since the discussion continues and Paul immediately refers back to the body as being "spiritual."

Maybe we won't know what Paul meant by spiritual body until we are one. If then. And what is a spiritual "body?" a plasma kinda thing? I can't imagine it.

[zeek]

OBW---Equivocation occurs when an ambiguous expression is used in more than one of its meanings in a single context. The fallacy occurs when that context is an argument and the conclusion depends on shifting the meaning of the expression while treating it as if it remains the same.

Despite my repeated requests for a definition of the word spirit you have continued to use the word without providing a definition for it. Thus, you apparently prefer to keep the word ambiguous. This leaves the way open for you to shift the meaning every time you use it including when you interpret it to mean a kind of body when in ordinary parlance a body is the polar opposite of a spirit. This you continue to do while at the same time prevaricating by refusing to give an answer to the direct question I repeatedly have asked you.

There is no shame in admitting that you don't know. But, I suppose, to do so would be to admit defeat. That would be to join me in my ignorance. Because, I am asking these questions quite simply because I don't know the answer. I am beginning to suspect that you don't either and that's why you seemed evasive.

I have no idea what a spiritual body is. It is a paradox beyond my ken. I think that anyone who claims that they understand the mystery behind the New Testament, misunderstands it. Witness Lee's questions of the orthodox doctrine of the trinity were good ones for those that lost sight of the divine mystery that such a symbol represents. Lee's mistake occurs when he arrives at a conclusion that goes beyond the New Testament and claims to solve the mystery. Fatal error. The New Testament writers don't make that mistake. They see by faith alone. The New Testament reveals and preserves the mystery. But, no greater an error than to suppose one can explain the Trinity. If it is anything, faith is our connection to ultimate reality that we cannot comprehend. Or, at least, that's how it seems to me.

[UntoHim]

Thankfully most scientist don't think like our friends awareness and zeek, if they did we would never have made it to the moon. As a matter of fact we wouldn't be conversing here on this forum because the computer and Internet would never have been invented...people would have just thrown their hands up in the air and said "this gravity thing is just a mystery, we give up...let's just forget about really knowing anything about it and just enjoy it...or just quibble and argue about it ad nauseam.

Yes, I do understand we are not talking about hard factual science here per se, however there is a certain amount of "discovery" involved. And this is where the disciplines of linguistics, history and even philosophy come into play. For hundreds of years there have been many brilliant, talented, hard working and dedicated people who have done the heavy theological lifting for us. The are a few around even today. And thanks to the Internet that was invented by some very brilliant and adventurous people (sorry Mr. Gore you're not included), we can access many of these theological works at the touch of a keyboard.

As far as the word "spirit" (Gk:πνεῦμα pneuma) is concerned, it is a very well known word/term in the New Testament. Most of the time it is easily defined by the context in which it is found in. This appearance in 1 Cor 15:45 is not quite as easily categorized or defined. This unique, originally coined term of the apostle Paul, "the life-giving spirit", is not so much of a title given (as in the many appearances of "The Spirit", "The Holy Spirit", "The Spirit of Truth", etc) as it is a description of the state of being of the post-resurrection body of the Lord Jesus. A clear and comprehensive reading of the surrounding verses disposes us to see it this way, I believe.

Again, there is a boatload of theological meaning and implications involved in this particular verse, and even the entire chapter, and short little sound bites and pithy declarations are not going to get us very far. I suggest that if we are going to ascertain the true and correct interpretation, we need to take it a little slow.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thankfully most scientist don't think like our friends awareness and zeek...

Science is a matter of formulating testable hypotheses that can be verified provisionally or falsified. It isn't a matter of absolute truth as you claim the Bible is. You and OBW have your hypothesis about 15:45, and Witness Lee had his. Lee claimed that Jesus is the Spirit. But the verse doesn't say that and he didn't explain why not. You and OBW claim that the verse means that Jesus is a spiritual body. But, the verse doesn't say that either and you haven't explained why not. I am merely admitting that I don't know and noting that no one else that I've read so far seems to either. I'm not claiming it is unsolvable mystery but only that it is unsolved. So by all means take your time. But, if Romans 11:33 is correct, and "His ways [are] past finding out" it might be harder than just getting to the moon.

If the word "spirit" is a very well known word/term in the New Testament that most of the time it is easily defined by the context it is found in then it would help the cause of discussing systematic Biblical theology to provide such definitions here. Without a clear definition I don't see how the word/term can be meaningfully discussed.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

But, if Romans 11:33 is correct, and "His ways [are] past finding out" it might be harder than just getting to the moon.

I think we're all in love with a mystery.

Embrace the mystery. Fall in love with it. That way is grace, and love.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

I think we're all in love with a mystery.

Embrace the mystery. Fall in love with it. That way is grace, and love.

That's probably a good idea. But, whether I love it or not, I can't get away from it.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by zeek

..It isn't a matter of absolute truth as you claim the Bible is.

Ah zeek, there ya go again! Where have I ever made such a statement in this thread? What do you mean by "absolute truth"? And can you PROVE that I have said or even implied such a thing? Nah, never mind.

If the word "spirit" is a very well known word/term in the New Testament that most of the time it is easily defined by the context it is found in then it would help the cause of discussing systematic Biblical theology to provide such definitions here. Without a clear definition I don't see how the word/term can be meaningfully discussed.

Well, "discussing systematic biblical theology" is not part of the cause of this thread, and your constant harping of "clear definition" mantra is a smoke screen that has been aired out - the definition of "spirit" is/will be ascertained by anybody who wants to take a deep breath, open their Bible and actually read the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15. I know you can't seem to be bothered by this formality, but in case you didn't notice I boiled the context down for you (and others) to the lowest common denominator back in post #157. "With what kind of BODY to they come?" - "Heavenly BODIES, earthly BODIES" - "Natural BODY, Spiritual BODY". Sorry if you and Witness Lee couldn't seem to catch the next part of the 2-4-6 ("?") progression, but hey, we all have our blind spots, now don't we? (emphasis mine)

Is this "spiritual body" a mystery? Sure is! So are LOTS and LOTS of phrases and terms in the Bible. In fact the apostle Paul was pretty much the patron saint of coining mysterious terms and phases. Heck, there are like three or four of them is this very chapter. But let's just stick with this one, "live-giving spirit", shall we?

As awareness has aptly pointed out, the term "spiritual body" seems to be an oxymoron or paradox - I agree. But God himself, especially when it come to his work among and with his creation, is filled with all manner of mysteries and paradoxes and such.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ah zeek, there ya go again! Where have I ever made such a statement in this thread? What do you mean by "absolute truth"? And can you PROVE that I have said or even implied such a thing? Nah, never mind.

You have stated that you are an inerrantist in the past according to my recollection. That isn't something that changes with you from thread to thread is it?

Well, "discussing systematic biblical theology" is not part of the cause of this thread, and your constant harping of "clear definition" mantra is a smoke screen that has been aired out - the definition of "spirit" is/will be ascertained by anybody who wants to take a deep breath, open their Bible and actually read the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15.

If a definition is clear to you, you could easily state what it is as I have. Why wouldn't you want to practice systematic theology on this thread if it is possible? From what I have read systematic theologians define their terms whenever possible, because, unless that is done, there is no way to check the system for coherence. The definition I gave --that a spirit is a person without a body works in many but not all the contexts I have applied it to. The usual exception is when spirit is used to refer to a suchness or subtle essence.

Neither of those definitions seem to apply in 15:45B. But, only because in the context of the verse, Paul is talking about a spiritual body. I do agree with you and OBW that Lee's mistake was not to take the context into account when expounding on the verse.

It seems that Paul was using the word here in a special sense. He is contrasting the last Adam with the first whom he has said is a living soul. It is not that Adam has a soul, but that he becomes one. In other words, soul is constitutes his being. So the parallel figure, the last Adam, becomes a life-giving spirit. To say he becomes a spiritual body would not have been parallel and would not have been inclusive of his entire being. It isn't that he has a spirit, it is that spirit constitutes his being. As the first Adam's body is included in the fact of being a living soul, the last Adam's body is included in the fact of being a life-giving spirit. That seems like a plausible interpretation to me at the moment. What do you think?

Is this "spiritual body" a mystery? Sure is! So are LOTS and LOTS of phrases and terms in the Bible. In fact the apostle Paul was pretty much the patron saint of coining mysterious terms and phases. Heck, there are like three or four of them is this very chapter. But let's just stick with this one, "live-giving spirit", shall we?

Well then you agree with me then. Good.

As awareness has aptly pointed out, the term "spiritual body" seems to be an oxymoron or paradox - I agree. But God himself, especially when it come to his work among and with his creation, is filled with all manner of mysteries and paradoxes and such.

Actually it was me that pointed that out. But then, this is not the first time you have confused Awareness and I. I guess it's hard to tell people apart when they're in outer darkness. But, seriously, it's beginning to be difficult to see where you and I disagree on this topic. We seem to have different methods and epistemology. But, if you agree with what I have said above, we have arrived at a similar conclusions.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thankfully most scientist don't think like our friends awareness and zeek, if they did we would never have made it to the moon.

Oh I don't know, like Ralph Kramden "One of these days... POW!!! Straight to the moon!"