What ever happened to Max Rappaport, John Ingells?

I was in the Church in Anaheim during the years 1974-1976 when Witness Lee, Ron Kangas, John Ingalls and Max Rappaport were the three leaders of that Church. I understand that Ron Kangas is still with LSM (I lived at his house in Anaheim for a month in 1975). Whatever happened to Max Rappaport and John Ingalls after they left the Church? Anyone know?

[UntoHim]

As far as Max and Sandee Rapoport are concerned, I know that they have continued to serve the Lord and preach the Gospel. At one point I think they were in the Riverside California area. Not sure about now.

Here is something that may be of interest to you:
http://www.amazon.com/Our-Personal-T.../dp/B008DNC748

As far as John Ingalls is concerned, he has been meeting in Westminster California with "Church Assembly in Westminster" since the mid 1990's I believe. The church is composed of mostly former LC members and leaders. I know that Ken Unger was there for many years. Ken passed away in July of 2012. I have been to a few of their meetings over the years and found that Ingalls et al have really never "moved on". Everything is the same as the Local Church except they don't used materials with Witness Lee's name on them. Obviously LSM with never allow "the rebels" to have use of any of their copyrighted materials.

Last I heard, John was in very frail health, and I noted that a website that was started by a church member has not been updated in a year or so.
Here's the link to that website:
http://caiw.blogspot.com/

[Terry]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I have been to a few of their meetings over the years and found that Ingalls et al have really never "moved on". Everything is the same as the Local Church except they don't used materials with Witness Lee's name on them.

Last I heard, John was in very frail health, and I noted that a website that was started by a church member has not been updated in a year or so.
Here's the link to that website:
http://caiw.blogspot.com/

Even now the current LSM/LC leaders have not given John nor many of the former elders grace.
I have been to one of the meetings at Westminster. The format is unlike the current LC format (the current LC format being one man's ministry spoken through a variety of voices). Very similar to what I remember prior to the New Way. There may be some former LC members meeting is Westminster, but from my visit I was pleasantly surprised by diversity in ages.
I wonder what is meant by never "moved on". If it's because of the format, I see it's logical have met that way since the 60's. Many former LC members might have trouble meetings any other way where there's no opportunity for anyone to speak with the exception of a pastor and a select few.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Terry

I wonder what is meant by never "moved on". If it's because of the format, I see it's logical have met that way since the 60's. Many former LC members might have trouble meetings any other way where there's no opportunity for anyone to speak with the exception of a pastor and a select few.

Most evangelical churches nowadays have smaller home meetings where there is an opportunity to speak. Most reserve the main Sunday worship service time for corporate worship and the ministry of the Word by the teaching elders/pastors. This format seems to work best to keep the services within a reasonable timeframe of 90 minutes or less. Any longer and you are trying the patients and capacity of the average person, especially someone who is unsaved or maybe new to the Faith. Also there is a concern for the time of the children's workers.

I surely understand why the Westminster Assembly has retained the old familiar Local Church format - John Ingalls is around 80 at this point and I wouldn't expect to see much change. The times I was at the W.A fellowship it was mostly people over 40 and many much older. It was over half Chinese/Asian. I don't think there has been much growth, especially in the area of American Caucasians and young people. I think the reason for this is very simple - If people are going to church for just to fulfil some religious need then there are many more attractive/entertaining/uplifting places to go, especially in So. Calif. Conversely, if someone is really seeking the Lord, the ministry of the Word and true/open fellowship with other genuine Christians, then there are also many better choices than the Local Church or any spinoff church that's basically the same but without hearing the name of Lee every other sentence.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Even now the current LSM/LC leaders have not given John nor many of the former elders grace.

John Ingalls was a "rebellious, conspiratorial, and ambitious" brother who contracted a rare and highly contagious form of "leprosy."

If I were such an evil person, would you give me any grace? Would you even visit or talk to me? I doubt if you would even dare send me an email.

I understand that Max Rapoport was even worse than John Ingalls.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Most evangelical churches nowadays have smaller home meetings where there is an opportunity to speak. Most reserve the main Sunday worship service time for corporate worship and the ministry of the Word by the teaching elders/pastors. This format seems to work best to keep the services within a reasonable timeframe of 90 minutes or less. Any longer and you are trying the patients and capacity of the average person, especially someone who is unsaved or maybe new to the Faith. Also there is a concern for the time of the children's workers.

That has been my experience and I have no problem with it. In the home meeting atmosphere, it is more conducive for everyone having an opportunity to speak. I have heard the pros and cons of opening the floor in the Sunday Worship/Lord's Day meeting atmosphere. Do you let the trained pastor speak an entire message without anyone else an opportunity to speak? Or do you have an open floor to the congregation where there is more of an opportunity to use it as a platform than to build and edify?

[Terry]

Originally Posted by Ohio

John Ingalls was a "rebellious, conspiratorial, and ambitious" brother who contracted a rare and highly contagious form of "leprosy."

If I were such an evil person, would you give me any grace? Would you even visit or talk to me? I doubt if you would even dare send me an email.

I understand that Max Rapoport was even worse than John Ingalls.

Too funny Ohio. On a serious note, it is sad so many people bought into it. To date, not one has ever been able to offer a reasonable and logical explanation where John's "ambition" was from 1962-1988. I don't buy the notion John woke up one day and suddenly became "rebellious" and "ambitious". Rebellious against who? If being under the headship of Christ is to be rebellious, there may be a point. There's other brothers who fit this suggestion. John is merely one of the more prominent and polarizing brothers from local church history. Having gone from one of the most respected brothers in the Recovery to Public Enemy #1. Ironically FTTA trainees have been to John's home without knowing the brother before them, his ambition is to minister Christ.
I'm sure when Max was at Francis Ball's memorial service, it was not a case of the blendeds not recognizing Max, but a case of shunning Max. Obviously for Max to have worked the Vern Defromke, Bill Mallon, John Ingalls, Paul Kerr, and Stephen Kaung, on a Christian publication, there must have been reconciliation and restoration between the brothers.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The times I was at the W.A fellowship it was mostly people over 40 and many much older. It was over half Chinese/Asian. I don't think there has been much growth, especially in the area of American Caucasians and young people. I think the reason for this is very simple - If people are going to church for just to fulfil some religious need then there are many more attractive/entertaining/uplifting places to go, especially in So. Calif.

Conversely, if someone is really seeking the Lord, the ministry of the Word and true/open fellowship with other genuine Christians, then there are also many better choices than the Local Church or any spinoff church that's basically the same but without hearing the name of Lee every other sentence.

The latter first. I would recommend a community church if not a house church.
I had only been at Westminster in 2010. I can't say for certain, but I recall a fair ratio of Chinese and Caucasian. What caught my attention was the number of youth in the congregation. As I had fully expected most brothers and sisters being over 40 with not much youth.

[UntoHim]

Terry, maybe you didn't notice, but the Assembly in Westminster is actually two different churches - one English speaking and one Chinese speaking. Remind you of anything??? Really it's not much different than the Local Church of Witness Lee. There is a pretense of oneness but really the oneness is just that they are in the same building. What is the basis of their "oneness"? That they share the same address? Or that they sing from the same hymnal? Or that they all used to follow the ministry of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee?

[Terry]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Or that they all used to follow the ministry of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee?

That can be said of the older generations, but not necessarily of the younger generations.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If I were such an evil person, would you give me any grace? Would you even visit or talk to me? I doubt if you would even dare send me an email.

That must explain why I don't receive any emails anymore from brothers.
Really Ohio, the LSM practice of grace can be summed up as "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. " (Luke 6:32)

True example; a brother or sister can use the prophesying meeting as a platform to put down non-LSM Christian fellowships and rasing the concern to an elder, the brother or sister just needs to be given grace. (After all, he is positive for the ministry.) By contrast, certain celders and coworkers leave the LSM fellowship, instead of giving them grace after they leave their character is assasinated and their integrity is besmirched.

A brother doesn't even have to be a coworker, just a small potato who expresses a concern and he is removed from fellowship. Where is the ministry of grace?

Those of you who may have been involved in carpentry, have you ever tried to hammer a nail into a knot? The nail will go sideways. Having tried to go on in the local churches, that is what the absence of grace in the local churches caused me to go.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Really Ohio, the LSM practice of grace can be summed up as "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. " (Luke 6:32)

Those of you who may have been involved in carpentry, have you ever tried to hammer a nail into a knot?

Terry, glad you saw thru my sarcasm. I have always considered it to be a potent means of communication.

Your verse here is like a bright light shining upon the ministry of condemnation so prevalent in the Recovery.

And yes, I love carpentry, and for that matter, all things remodeling. I am known by many of my friends as the "guru" of old home construction. Let it be known that "knots are nasty!"

I actually remember the time I was all of six years old and my Dad ranted on the painter who painted the knots on his garage at our new house with standard paint/primer, but not with shellac, and left an intelligible image on my memory.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Terry, maybe you didn't notice, but the Assembly in Westminster is actually two different churches - one English speaking and one Chinese speaking. Remind you of anything??? Really it's not much different than the Local Church of Witness Lee. There is a pretense of oneness but really the oneness is just that they are in the same building. What is the basis of their "oneness"? That they share the same address? Or that they sing from the same hymnal? Or that they all used to follow the ministry of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee?

Seems a rather petty thing to call people of different primary languages "divided" and having "pretense" simply because they tend to meet where they understand each other better.

Yes, it mocks Lee's claim of absolute unity in a single meeting in a city. But that was a fabricated construct devised out of the dirt that his church claims to stand on. But in real life, a church with a large collection of different language speakers would be theoretically noteworthy, but practically frustrating. It would lend itself to the very thing that Paul had to instruct the Corinthians about in 1 Cor 14. Or alternately one language/culture group would dominate and the others would struggle to understand and follow along.

Having different meetings, whether in the same building or different buildings, so that people of different languages (and other differences) can meet in an substantial and cohesive way that is beneficial to their "going on" in Christ seems the ticket, especially if they are not then pointing their fingers at every other group that is not theirs and thinking about how they can't get along with them because of (fill in the blank).

I noted somewhere recently that I pass several other churches on my way to where I currently meet. Some would declare that I should stop at the closest one. Others would insist that I should only go to the "right one." But most would point at each of the ones i pass and think mostly about why they don't go there. What it is about them that makes them unattractive to me. And surely there is some of that in the reason that I go where I go.

But if I go where I go to obtain what I believe is what I need most, and/or is least prone to distract me from my focus on Christ/God/the Spirit . . . . And as I pass those other places on the way, do I think about why I don't go there, or do I have a prayer for them as they meet and as they labor in the field that they have been given?

Does that mean I have no thought for the theological differences? No. But do I consider those differences so strongly that I demean their existence and do not think upon them as my brothers and sisters in Christ? I hope not.

Does that mean that we should simply leave the LRC alone? Unfortunately, I don't think so. But at the same time, we need to keep from thinking on them as badly as they openly think and speak about the rest of us.

And guess what. We are now part of the thing they despise and ridicule. Do we simply return the favor? Or do we provide the evidence for them to see their own errors and at least decide for themselves rather than just closing their eyes and never knowing there is a scriptural and reasoned support for those who disagree with them.

So what is it that is wrong with AiM in the way it meets that warrants us scrutinizing it in the same way that the LRC scrutinizes everyone else?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by OBW

And guess what. We are now part of the thing they despise and ridicule. Do we simply return the favor? Or do we provide the evidence for them to see their own errors and at least decide for themselves rather than just closing their eyes and never knowing there is a scriptural and reasoned support for those who disagree with them.?

Points well taken! As to the latter part, this is one of the biggest reasons that this forum exists - to provide a venue, an imperfect and messy venue to be sure, but a venue nonetheless, that at times can provide some "scriptural and reasoned support" to all concerned. Also the forum can be a valuable thing for people seeking to know the uncensored history of the movement, which would include the very theme of this thread - "Whatever happened to?".

So what is it that is wrong with AiM in the way it meets that warrants us scrutinizing it in the same way that the LRC scrutinizes everyone else

Just sharing my observations bro. Call it scrutinizing if you wish, but unlike the LRC I actually went to the fellowship (more than once), observed with my own eyes and ears, and then reported as to what I saw and heard. If you think I'm being overly critical, I can live with that. But please don't place my criticisms in the same category of the Local Church's "poor, poor Christianity" nonsense, cause what I posted is not even in the same league...not even close.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Just sharing my observations bro. Call it scrutinizing if you wish, but unlike the LRC I actually went to the fellowship (more than once), observed with my own eyes and ears, and then reported as to what I saw and heard. If you think I'm being overly critical, I can live with that. But please don't place my criticisms in the same category of the Local Church's "poor, poor Christianity" nonsense, cause what I posted is not even in the same league...not even close.

I don't think that we would intentionally duplicate the LRC's nastiness. But sometimes I like to remind myself as I think about other groups that my observations may still be somewhat colored by the LRC's skewed view of what should be.

And that is the reason that so many want to leave the LRC and duplicate it. Because they still think there is something almost magical about those teachings concerning ground, or stand, or something.

I'm far past being that way on a grand scale. But I still find myself thinking about certain of the leeks and garlic of the LRC. Just smaller amounts so that it is not immediately identifiable (to me) as having come from that storehouse of leeks and garlic.

Of course, we have to be careful that in throwing out leeks and garlic we don't throw our faith out with it.

[UntoHim]

Just saw your reply now. Thanks for taking the time to clarify Mike. Sorry I got a little chippy with you...probably just a little of those leeks and garlic pieces stuck between my teeth

[HERn]

I was told that he wanted to become the "Coordinator of the One New Man" and was ambitious?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

I was told that he wanted to become the "Coordinator of the One New Man" and was ambitious?

Hey, I got his Kindle book. It was cheap ... a dollar and change. Our brother Max is really hung on himself. His mother must have told him he was special, and he believed her. He's a pitchman ; a used Jesus salesman. All that's missing is the plaid jacket.

Him and Lee were two peas in a pod. They both were pitchin' life insurance ...

[NewManLiving]

Concerning Max: What do you see? A used Jesus salesman, or
a broken man with a contrite spirit who loves The Lord with incorruptible
Love. I guess that answer would depend on the condition of our own
Hearts and our own relationship to The Lord

Take a look at the community archive and judge for yourself. Have not
Seen the link here so I am assuming there is no other thread with this link

https://archive.org/details/ReligionVersusReality

[awareness]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Concerning Max: What do you see? A used Jesus salesman, or
a broken man with a contrite spirit who loves The Lord with incorruptible
Love. I guess that answer would depend on the condition of our own
Hearts and our own relationship to The Lord

Take a look at the community archive and judge for yourself. Have not
Seen the link here so I am assuming there is no other thread with this link

https://archive.org/details/ReligionVersusReality

My goodness NML, after seeing and hearing Max I'm contrite of heart. He is not the Max I remember, the one I pictured in my head all these years. I only see traces of that old(young) Max.

And yes, NML, I see a broken man with a contrite spirit.

Who admits to mistakes in his past, and living narcissistically. I remember that. I remember those days. I remember Max the braggart.

He also admits that the Lord chastised him for it, telling him, "look how your decision hurt yourself, and your family." Well I ask, how about all the other brothers and sisters you hurt? the Lord didn't care about them? He didn't chastise you for hurting them.

But thanks bro NML, for linking to Max. It has moved me to forgive that used Jesus salesman. Lord knows it's about time that I do so.

It's funny how pictures in our head, of the past, don't change, like time does.

Lord forgive me for my foolishness. For failing to see how silly were those days when Max was pumping (retailing) Witness Less ... and for taking them so seriously.

I was, back in those days, as foolish as Max was (but he was a big-shot at it). I have no room to speak. Seems the large beam in my eye didn't bother me as much as that teensy little splinter in Max's eye.

[NewManLiving]

I was a young man in those days and Max was about 10 years older
I recall the time that we were in the process of purchasing a meeting
Hall from a free-group. Some of us young zealots would go frequently to
See this pastor or to attend his meetings simply for the reason to beat him
With a Christ vs religion bat. At first it was an attempt to convince him
Of "the more perfect way". But when he did not take the bait we made
It a point to let him know how dark and dead he and his congregation
Were. I also recall when some of us young brothers worked together
At a factory. We would often wear our gospel robes and march in.
Eventually this became a judgement hall for the sins committed by our
Unbelieving co-workers. While we did save a couple of people, most
Of the workers hated our superiority and our exposing their sins.

So for me I am just as guilty as anyone for not obeying The Lord as I
suppose most of us were to some degree.
To this I truly repent. But praise The Lord He is truly merciful
And all loving.

Today I am confident that He will complete the work
He has begun in me until the day of His appearing. I enjoy Him and love
Him so much more now then at any other time of my life. I see my High
Priest sitting at the right hand of the Father interceding for me to save
Me to the uttermost for His glorious Kingdom. I see a Christ who loved me
And mercifully pulled me out of my own vomit. I can honestly say that my
Past life may have been more sinful than what Max reveals about himself
I fell back into the world head first after leaving the movement. Each decade
Became worse and worse until I was close to death. Then one day a few years
Ago The Lord came to me.

My dear sweet loving Lord I love you with my soul. I present my body
To you as a living sacrifice for you to will and do in me for your good
Pleasure
NML

[awareness]

Amen NewManLiving in Christ. Amen!

[aron]

NML thank you for your voice. And thanks for the link to Max R. You have a testimony that is equally precious in the courts of heaven. Thank you for sharing.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

Today I am confident that He will complete the work
He has begun in me until the day of His appearing. I enjoy Him and love
Him so much more now then at any other time of my life. I see my High
Priest sitting at the right hand of the Father interceding for me to save
Me to the uttermost for His glorious Kingdom. I see a Christ who loved me
And mercifully pulled me out of my own vomit. I can honestly say that my
Past life may have been more sinful than what Max reveals about himself
I fell back into the world head first after leaving the movement. Each decade
Became worse and worse until I was close to death. Then one day a few years
Ago The Lord came to me.

My dear sweet loving Lord I love you with my soul. I present my body
To you as a living sacrifice for you to will and do in me for your good
Pleasure
NML

WELCOME BACK YOU PRODIGAL SON YOU !! Your story is the story of many of our lives including mine!

We are the sheep who know our SHEPHERD'S VOICE !!!!!!

WE LOVE OUR SHEPHARD--- JESUS !
THANKS FOR SHARING! MAY GOD shower you with abundant Joy, Love, Favor, Peace, Wisdom and BLESSINGS from above and here on earth until He comes for us!

Carol

P.S. Never knew Max..but he was in San Diego before going up to Anaheim. I got saved in San Diego right after he moved to San Diego. I remember San Diego 'mourning' him. Was there from 1975 - 1978..then poofed from the LC.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

John Ingalls was a "rebellious, conspiratorial, and ambitious" brother who contracted a rare and highly contagious form of "leprosy."

If I were such an evil person, would you give me any grace? Would you even visit or talk to me? I doubt if you would even dare send me an email.

I understand that Max Rapoport was even worse than John Ingalls.

I never met Max but John and Bill Mallon came to share in Detroit a couple times. I hope the best for them. This entire conversation reminds me when things were good...before I entered the LC (when I was so excited reading WN and never heard of WL) and during my Santa Cruz LC experience. It would have been nice to have looked back and read about everything but, no, I had to get involved. Oh, well. Even hearing about what happened to John I. and Bill Mallon is so sad and considering how hard it has been for so many of us after we left the LC I can't imagine what John and Bill went through. Probably in many respects going through the motions although I am sure they never wavered in their faith.

I just stumbled onto this site when doing a search for Max and Sandee. When I became a believer in the Lord, while stationed in California, it was Max and Sandee who showed me and scores of young people the love and power of God. They were my first spiritual mentors and introduced me to the manifestation of God's power and love in a remarkable way.

Does anyone know where they are today? Also, does anyone know where Willie Samoff is?

Blessings,
James B

This is my second post regarding Max and Sandee Rappaport. As I mentioned in my earlier post, they were my first spiritual mentors after I turned my life over the Lordship of Jesus Christ. The young people who attended their "coffee house" ministry in San Clemente invited me to attend on the weekends and Wednesday evenings. Those were life changing meetings, and after nearly 48 years, I can still remember how the Lord used them to impact my life.

I thank God for Max and Sandee, and hope they are still standing strong for the Lord, or have been restored from any wounds they may have received along their journey.

If anyone knows where they are, please post their contact information.

Thanks,
James B

[Terry]

Originally Posted by James B

I thank God for Max and Sandee, and hope they are still standing strong for the Lord, or have been restored from any wounds they may have received along their journey.

If anyone knows where they are, please post their contact information.

Thanks,
James B

Last I knew of, Max and Sandee were in or near Riverside, California. No, I don't have their contact info.

[UntoHim]

https://archive.org/details/ReligionVersusReality

This link was posted back a couple of years ago and it is a service Max Rapoport spoke at in a church in Corona California (near Riverside)

The church seems to be some sort of Charismatic non-denominational fellowship. At the point of this recording, Febuary of 2008, Max and Sandee had been members there for 5 years or so. Upon looking at their website, Max is not listed in the church staff directory.

http://www.newhopefwc.com/home.html


-

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

https://archive.org/details/ReligionVersusReality

This link was posted back a couple of years ago and it is a service Max Rapoport spoke at in a church in Corona California (near Riverside)

The church seems to be some sort of Charismatic non-denominational fellowship. At the point of this recording, Febuary of 2008, Max and Sandee had been members there for 5 years or so. Upon looking at their website, Max is not listed in the church staff directory.

http://www.newhopefwc.com/home.html


-

I came in to TLR right after brother Max R exited. The saints in my locality were happy he was gone, saying they had been doing some "Tom Foolery" while he was leading.

From this clip, it is clear he loves the Lord and His word. He has a big presense like a few other brothers still in TLR, but seems somewhat humbled.

If you were in TLR in Max's days, please enlighten me about that era and what you see in this clip.

JJ

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

I came in to TLR right after brother Max R exited. The saints in my locality were happy he was gone, saying they had been doing some "Tom Foolery" while he was leading.

From this clip, it is clear he loves the Lord and His word. He has a big presense like a few other brothers still in TLR, but seems somewhat humbled.

JJ, I joined the church in Cleveland 2 years before Max departed. Much has been written about Max on this forum. At one point his daughter posted on the board. Here's the Cliff's Notes version:

Max was gifted salesman, turned evangelist, and groomed by Lee. With the new start of LSM (Stream Publishers ended) in Anaheim on Ball Road, Max was promoted to heir apparent and the "Universal Coordinator of the One New Man." Lee used Max to travel to the LC's, disrupting them, and shaking up their leadership with the goal of bringing all the saints under his dominion. Max signaled the end of "local churches," and the beginning of the "one body," code words for LSM maneuvers.

Lee used Max like a pawn, taking advantage of his talents and relative Christian immaturity. Max was morally upright, however, and confronted Phillip Lee in a restaurant about his affair at the new LSM office under construction. To avoid family embarrassment, Lee shamed Max's wife publicly, an old Chinese custom, while Max was out of town doing Lee's bidding. Lee called it the "sisters' rebellion." With Lee's takeover plans hitting a pothole, he dumped Max, blaming everything on him, and came out smelling like a rose.

Later on after he departed, Max repented, realizing he was used and discarded by Lee, and returned to his First Love. Apparently, the Lord did restor his ministry. Lee, however, never took any responsibility for his actions. Phillip later surfaced to create more chaos, expel elders and workers, molest more female "interns" at LSM, create a money-making enterprise, and bring all the saints under subjection.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by Ohio

JJ, I joined the church in Cleveland 2 years before Max departed. Much has been written about Max on this forum. At one point his daughter posted on the board. Here's the Cliff's Notes version:

Max was gifted salesman, turned evangelist, and groomed by Lee. With the new start of LSM (Stream Publishers ended) in Anaheim on Ball Road, Max was promoted to heir apparent and the "Universal Coordinator of the One New Man." Lee used Max to travel to the LC's, disrupting them, and shaking up their leadership with the goal of bringing all the saints under his dominion. Max signaled the end of "local churches," and the beginning of the "one body," code words for LSM maneuvers.

Lee used Max like a pawn, taking advantage of his talents and relative Christian immaturity. Max was morally upright, however, and confronted Phillip Lee in a restaurant about his affair at the new LSM office under construction. To avoid family embarrassment, Lee shamed Max's wife publicly, an old Chinese custom, while Max was out of town doing Lee's bidding. Lee called it the "sisters' rebellion." With Lee's takeover plans hitting a pothole, he dumped Max, blaming everything on him, and came out smelling like a rose.

Later on after he departed, Max repented, realizing he was used and discarded by Lee, and returned to his First Love. Apparently, the Lord did restor his ministry. Lee, however, never took any responsibility for his actions. Phillip later surfaced to create more chaos, expel elders and workers, molest more female "interns" at LSM, create a money-making enterprise, and bring all the saints under subjection.

It's been said of Witness Lee's unwillingness to reconcile with Max, "God is sovereign."
Maybe in respect to Max and Phillip, blood is thicker than water. In a sense they were both pawns. Max lined up local churches to become ministry churches and Phillip made LSM a multi-million dollar business and his father a millionaire in the process with the ministry churches as conduits to distribute Lee's ministry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

It's been said of Witness Lee's unwillingness to reconcile with Max, "God is sovereign."

Lee and LSM have never reconciled with anyone.

And that is God's sovereignty?

[Terry]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee and LSM have never reconciled with anyone.

And that is God's sovereignty?

Pretty much. Circumstances that led to relationships being fractured was God's sovereignty, thus no need to reconcile. Although quite ignorant reconciliation is choosing or not choosing to exercise one's will to reconcile.

I do think the Lee/LSM view on not reconciling is more based on trust and less having to do with love. It's like this, "we brothers feel we cannot trust you to be man-honoring......". The LSM system requires brothers who can tow the party line. If you cannot be counted on one being one with the party, brothers cannot trust you to be one with them.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

As far as John Ingalls is concerned, he has been meeting in Westminster California with "Church Assembly in Westminster" since the mid 1990's I believe. The church is composed of mostly former LC members and leaders. I know that Ken Unger was there for many years. Ken passed away in July of 2012. I have been to a few of their meetings over the years and found that Ingalls et al have really never "moved on". Everything is the same as the Local Church except they don't used materials with Witness Lee's name on them. Obviously LSM with never allow "the rebels" to have use of any of their copyrighted materials.

Last I heard, John was in very frail health, and I noted that a website that was started by a church member has not been updated in a year or so.
Here's the link to that website:
http://caiw.blogspot.com/[/COLOR]

Apparently John Ingalls had some fellowship going with the church in Toledo in 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5MoyHRK6U

Sounds like "local church talk" to me.

the living stream ministry is broadcast on 740 am radio... during week at 11 am... the last I heard of max was when attended a meeting in riverside, California along with peter ross and other remembers of the lc from the 70's..

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

the living stream ministry is broadcast on 740 am radio... during week at 11 am... the last I heard of max was when attended a meeting in riverside, California along with peter ross and other remembers of the lc from the 70's..

So, are you saying that Max is attending church with the LC now?

No, I try to locate him, but to no avail, but I was given a phone number by Karen R (one of those of the exodus) but did not call...Karen was one who spent time with sandy along with the many followers of max and sandy ...BTW, I was one of the first to leave the Colorado migration...

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

BTW, I was one of the first to leave the Colorado migration...

What Colorado migration are you speaking of. It's my understanding that Max R came to Colorado and stirred up "a rebellion" in the Church in Denver in 1978, and quite a number of members, including some elders, left the Church. I think there was even some sort of fight over the meeting hall. Details are very sketchy and hard to come by. Could you possibly feel us in on what really happened?

Thanks.

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Again I say, no "I did not get involved in the politics of the something new"...I left Denver after three months and went back to California..Yet I met personally with max some years later after the fall away to Denver in 1978 and he invited me to a meeting in Corona but I saw we all were falling more into religion (following a man) so I left completely the fellowship of LC ... I was there in LC of Anaheim from about 1974- 78... I was a shadow among the elders (had close to first hand knowledge of "waz happening") ... I still have cassette tape of BANNED meeting given by Max just prior the parting in 78 which BTW he asked me to destroy just before I decided to migrate to Denver (following Max and Sandy) Soon the word was out and many brothers LC Anaheim got word of a den of vipers (we were called) came to my house and rebuked me and family and began to shun me/us...anyway today I now and then do a walk in, in Anaheim (the building I took part as a worker from time to time) also adding, I sold everything and I bought a house and lived about three hundred yards from LC of Anaheim... I had at one time about fifty members at my home listening to Gene Ford, one of the prominent members and gumba of Ron Kangus...

Hi everyone. My name is Jessica and I am one of Max Rapoport's daughters. My daughter was doing a search on her grandpa's name out of curiosity and came across this thread. I feel to add to it for posterity sake so that someone who actually was there and knew him has a voice in this conversation. There are many speculations as well as half-truths and downright liesregarding my father. No one really needs to speculate because my father was his own worst critic and always owned up to his mistakes. He is passed on now and when he died had no unforgiveness or ill will towards anyone. He continue to serve the Lord every single day of his life until the day he died. He is a wonderful example of God's grace, mercy and redemption. The whole "local church experience" affected our parents obviously negatively at first because people were praying for our deaths and harassing us. As a child the things that stood out to me the most were having paint thrown at our door, threatening phone calls, and being told by friends that they weren't allowed to play with us because we "were at the devil" . These were "my experiences " after we left the LC I am so grateful to God that he liberated my parents from that organization because I know of what has happened to the children about their members and their families and often times these are sad stories to hear. Our family stayed intact and my parents continue to serve the Lord . These two things are their greatest achievements in my book. Furthermore, all of their children have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ another great achievement which they have always been so grateful to the Lord for. It is a free country with free speech but I do ask that if you are going to speak about my parents, keep in mind that their grandchildren and great grandchildren and so on will read these comments possibly some day. So please only speak about your own experience and don't suppose about what you didn't personally experience. Thank you so much and May Jesus bless you all.

[Nell]

Hi Jessica,

Welcome to the forum and thank you so much for your words of testimony and truth. Please accept my condolences on the recent passing of your father.

I know someone who spent some time with your parents several years ago in their home, and she came away with the same impression that you have stated above. I didn't know your parents personally, but I did hear your Dad speak many times. I have to say, he was such a personality, larger than life! And that sense of humor! My! My! My! Don't tell anybody, but I would much rather hear "Max" speak than Lee.

My friend also testified and can confirm what you said that your parents had no bitterness toward anyone, though there was certainly awful things said and done to them.

Again, thank you for adding your voice to this topic and I'm so sorry for your loss.

Blessings to the Rapoport Family--
Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

Hi Jessica,

Welcome to the forum and thank you so much for your words of testimony and truth. Please accept my condolences on the recent passing of your father.

I know someone who spent some time with your parents several years ago in their home, and she came away with the same impression that you have stated above. I didn't know your parents personally, but I did hear your Dad speak many times. I have to say, he was such a personality, larger than life! And that sense of humor! My! My! My! Don't tell anybody, but I would much rather hear "Max" speak than Lee.

My friend also testified and can confirm what you said that your parents had no bitterness toward anyone, though there was certainly awful things said and done to them.

Again, thank you for adding your voice to this topic and I'm so sorry for your loss.

Blessings to the Rapoport Family--
Nell

Thank you Nell. I appreciate your kind words and I agree with you about hearing my father speak. To be honest, I prefer hearing my parents evangelize more then anyone else. I think they are the best but perhaps I'm a bit biased. 😉

Blessings to you,
Jessica

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone. My name is Jessica and I am one of Max Rapoport's daughters. My daughter was doing a search on her grandpa's name out of curiosity and came across this thread. I feel to add to it for posterity sake so that someone who actually was there and knew him has a voice in this conversation. There are many speculations as well as half-truths and downright liesregarding my father. No one really needs to speculate because my father was his own worst critic and always owned up to his mistakes. He is passed on now and when he died had no unforgiveness or ill will towards anyone. He continue to serve the Lord every single day of his life until the day he died. He is a wonderful example of God's grace, mercy and redemption. The whole "local church experience" affected our parents obviously negatively at first because people were praying for our deaths and harassing us. As a child the things that stood out to me the most were having paint thrown at our door, threatening phone calls, and being told by friends that they weren't allowed to play with us because we "were at the devil" . These were "my experiences " after we left the LC I am so grateful to God that he liberated my parents from that organization because I know of what has happened to the children about their members and their families and often times these are sad stories to hear. Our family stayed intact and my parents continue to serve the Lord . These two things are their greatest achievements in my book. Furthermore, all of their children have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ another great achievement which they have always been so grateful to the Lord for. It is a free country with free speech but I do ask that if you are going to speak about my parents, keep in mind that their grandchildren and great grandchildren and so on will read these comments possibly some day. So please only speak about your own experience and don't suppose about what you didn't personally experience. Thank you so much and May Jesus bless you all.

Hi Jessica,
Thank you for sharing about your parents. I am so saddened by the news of your father's passing. My condolences to you and your family.
My name is Doug and I knew your parents during my tenure with the LC during the mid-70'S. Your mother and father were instrumental in setting the hearts and minds of many young people free from the rampant legalism that had so many of us bound. Many of us loved your mother and father for being the real people that they were. There was no pretense. Just intensive confrontation (in love) from your father to stir us up and on in our relationship with the Lord. Because your father was such a prominent figure in Witness Lee's inner circle, those who were ambitious to be leaders were provoked in their flesh to jealousy and contempt for your father. Your dad rocked the LC boat and called out the hypocrisy of the church. For that, he was hated. I thank your parents and credit them for helping me free myself from a hate driven and narcissistic organization. I was just a small fish in the LC pond following the school until your father came on the scene. He exposed the LC for what it really was-a cult-like group so loyal to their leader (Lee) that they set aside all human reasoning and sensibilities and followed this man blindly.
I was in the LC from 1971-1979. Los Angeles, Anaheim and Boulder, Co. Water under the bridge. A lesson learned. God is good. I have much more to share if you would like.
Blessings to you,
Doug P.

Hi Doug, a friend alerted me to your message. I don't come on this thread though so if you did want to communicate further with my mother or myself you are free to send me a request on Facebook if you are on that or you can email me At jessicamercer1@yahoo.com

[Boxjobox]

John Ingalls passed away last October

[Nell]

Information on Max.

This may need to be moved to another category.

[recoveringCK]

Thanks for the update.

[Barnabas]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

https://archive.org/details/ReligionVersusReality

This link was posted back a couple of years ago and it is a service Max Rapoport spoke at in a church in Corona California (near Riverside)

The church seems to be some sort of Charismatic non-denominational fellowship. At the point of this recording, Febuary of 2008, Max and Sandee had been members there for 5 years or so. Upon looking at their website, Max is not listed in the church staff directory.

http://www.newhopefwc.com/home.html


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Thanks for sharing this above URL. I was happy to see Max speaking again.