The LCS Factor

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Matt

Peter,

I'm not stuck on the idea that the "we're IT" factor was the only factor that initially drew people to the LC. With the outpouring of the Spirit going on and the thoughts which were not countered that the LC was the God's special move on the earth, it was part of the equation.

There were other things. I'm trying to draw out the ones that were not based solely on the truth and/or tended towards allowing a man (or men) to setup an idolatrous environment that started in a smaller way, but grew.

The other primary fact is that Lee wasn't in some better condition from the earliest days. He was dirty and wasn't listening to sound admonition from someone like TAS who was speaking soundly. This opened the door to the Enemy to be integrated into the environment from the beginning.

In regards to Lee, I believe the "ground" represented a means of establishing earthly control over other believers in the name of God, but not of God.

Matt

Matt:

I didn't think you were presenting it as the sole factor which brought people in. Nor am I countering the evidence you're bringing forth concerning "early Lee."

What I am interested in, in part, is what is was that attracted folks in the first place. There are varied answers to that question, but its answer is important. Rephrased, my question to LC members could be: "What was the foundation of your being in the LC." I do think this is an analogous inquiry to the one you are pursuing.

Its an important question. Because this initial "foundation" is what sustained people and perhaps caused them to remain. Certain teachings or practices that came in or they adopted later may be cause of concern, but if they were not the source of their reason for being in the LC - and especially if they were subsidiary to their presence in the LC - then I think it changes the "idolatry" discussion. This question also is applicable to all of us - even after being in the LC and in other groups. It treats our accoutability as being larger than whether we were or were not in an errant group.

As I said, there seem to me to be two conversations here:

1) Did Witness Lee adopt or create an idol out of "the ground"
2) Were you [mr or mrs LC person] idolatrous?

First, in this discussion where the definition of "idol" is not as crisp as in the OT (i.e. where the idol is actually another god with a name, etc...), no given object or idea is inherently an idol. Its people's relationship to it which makes it an idol. Thus, an idol to one is not to another. Secondly, the existence of an idol is one thing. But being in and around something that some treat as an idol does not itself make one idolatrous. Thus, I am interested in establishing the Scriptural criteria by which we can say any given individual has been idolatrous when in and around something that others, especially leaders, have idolized.

I would like to suggest a possible four categories of folks here, let me know what you think:

Those who created idols
Those who knowingly "ate food sacrificed to idols" because they thought it was the right thing to do (even if they didn't see it that way)
Those who did not know the food had been sacrificed it to idols and simply ate of it as food.
Those who recognized that the food had been sacrificed to an idol, but did not idolize, and thus whose conscience allowed them the freedom to eat

What are your immediate impressions of this rubric? The premise of the rubric is that, concerning idols, there are different standards of accountability, based on personal knowledge and conscience. If this seems like a workable rubric, onto what do you think these four categories should map in the LC? What's the "idol" and what's "food sacrificed to idols" etc...?

Thoughts?

Peter

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

... What I am interested in, in part, is what is was that attracted folks in the first place. There are varied answers to that question, but its answer is important. Rephrased, my question to LC members could be: "What was the foundation of your being in the LC." I do think this is an analogous inquiry to the one you are pursuing.

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

....What are your immediate impressions of this rubric? The premise of the rubric is that, concerning idols, there are different standards of accountability, based on personal knowledge and conscience. If this seems like a workable rubric, onto what do you think these four categories should map in the LC? What's the "idol" and what's "food sacrificed to idols" etc...?

Thoughts?

Peter

Peter,

I realize your are asking Matt your question, so I hope you don’t mind if I answer also.

First, let me say what attracted me in the beginning: For me it was being with other people who felt like I did about Jesus and were willing to talk about Him. I grew up in a time (at least in my environment) when people said their relationship to God was private and personal and they didn’t talk about it. My mother read her Bible behind closed doors (at least that is what she said she was doing) and never talked to us about it or God. God was very real to me from age 11 onward, and I was starved (though I didn’t know this) to hear from anyone else who felt like I did about Him. So, when my new husband and I entered George W.’s house in Denton, Texas for our first meeting, I was attracted. (I was also extremely uncomfortable because praying out loud, etc. was awkward and embarrassing for me.)

That said, I was not attracted by the ground of locality teachings or and idea of one man on the earth who was God’s deputy authority with lots of other little deputy authorities under him. These things ended up coming with the turf later. I readily embraced the ground of locality teaching because it was evident that something was wrong with organized religion. Having oneness sounded good. I had no idea what the Bible taught about oneness, so I was like a sponge (for another man’s teaching).

As to all your various questions related to accountability, here’s my thought. I don't think the Bible defines many varying levels of accountability with regard to idolatry. It just says flee it. I don't think we each will be judged by categories of idolatry. When it comes to judgment, I think there will be as many “categories” related to judgment as there are people. God will judge each one of us in our own category, based on what He knows about us, our environment, upbringing, choices, etc. His judgment will be fair to the uttermost.


It is good to discuss the idolatrous system just to understand where we went wrong and be protected from more of the same in the future, however, I don’t think we have to study it so we can determine categories of accountability. I believe our discussion is to help us become convicted that we need to flee idolatry in whatever form it is, to realize we are not immune, and to run to Him. (I can guarantee you when someone asks Him to expose his/her particular sins with regard to idolatry, that prayer will get answered.)

As believers, I think a question we can each ask ourselves is, “What is my relationship with Him like now? Did I have a relationship with Him at one time that I left?” If I did, then I need to repent and return to Him only. “Did I never have a relationship with Him other than initial salvation and have always followed others thinking that was God?” If so, then I need to repent for looking to others in this way and start learning to look to Him. Time is short. This is a time for bowing our knees and hearing Him.

2Ch 7:13-16 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attentive unto the prayer that is made in this place.

For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there forever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

Today, we have been offered a new covenant relationship with Him where we each know Him from the little to the great! That is huge, huge, huge! When we each repent for our own sins and get into right relationship with God and one another, He will come and heal our land. This isn’t a promise to a small subset of God’s people, but to the whole family of God.

Heb 2:1 -13 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

....

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Thankful Jane

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

What I am interested in, in part, is what is was that attracted folks in the first place. There are varied answers to that question, but its answer is important. Rephrased, my question to LC members could be: "What was the foundation of your being in the LC." I do think this is an analogous inquiry to the one you are pursuing.

For me personally, the answer is simple, thru the meetings I was filled in spirit thru the singing, the speaking of the word, and the testimonies. My love for the Lord, His word, and His people was continually "recharged" to overflowing.

Looking back, there was a tremendous subduing effect of the Holy Spirit upon me, and my stubborn and naughty ways, which effect was NOT from man. I have long felt that I was at the tail end of the blessed period in LC history. Things changed soon after I arrived in the mid 70's. People no longer "just showed up" and "gave their all" to "Christ and the church." These changes were several -- growing internal issues, external pressures from books, and cultural changes -- the "Jesus Movement" was ending.

But, being honest here, definitely there were some leaders who took advantage of my submissive attitude towards the Lord. It became easy in that environment to "play God" with the lives of young people. Whether this was the effects of spreading "Chinese culture" or just just plain old "power grabbing" is hard to say.

As AndPeter has alluded to, all this talk of "God's army" was straight from hell. Many saints were hurt by "army strategies." I believe this became a direct insult to the Headship of Christ. With the "commander in chief" in Anaheim, and his loyal lieutenants in place, with all non-soldier types effectively purged, who needs God anyways?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

...What are your immediate impressions of this rubric? The premise of the rubric is that, concerning idols, there are different standards of accountability, based on personal knowledge and conscience. If this seems like a workable rubric, onto what do you think these four categories should map in the LC? What's the "idol" and what's "food sacrificed to idols" etc...?

Thoughts?

Peter

I have a thought, too .

We are all individuals. God deals with us as individuals. As individuals we sin, and as individuals we are accountable.

I don't think a sinful man is in a position to think he can "figure out" his own accountability based on a reasoned approach. Would the purpose be to repent only to the extent of what we have reasoned or perceived we are guilty and no further? Would that be to make ourselves feel better that we were not perhaps as deceived as someone else?

We are dependant on the One against whom we sinned to enlighten us about our sin, either through His word or the Holy Spirit or both.

As in the Word, if someone sins against me, it is my responsibility to go to that person and enlighten them. Otherwise, they might not know about their sin against me. That's how people know about their sin.

We are convicted of our sin, either by the Word or the Holy Spirit. It's not based on reasoning or a rubric, unless of course, your rubric is the Word of God.

When we stand before Him one day, will He be looking at our rubric that we came up with for our guidelines of repentance to Him? "But Lord, I read it on the forum! I was only a category 5 idolator...don't you see?"

I like the "mercy seat" approach. I'm glad there is one, and that's where I want to be. I just want to depend on His mercy alone, because I need it real bad. Anything I come up with has been called "filthy rags."

Nell

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Nell

I have a thought, too .

I don't think a sinful man is in a position to think he can "figure out" his own accountability based on a reasoned approach. Would the purpose be to repent only to the extent of what we have reasoned or perceived we are guilty and no further? Would that be to make ourselves feel better that we were not perhaps as deceived as someone else?


Nell

I agree that we cannot "figure out" or reason our accountability to God. Even as I have attempted to do this in the past, God has always been sure to smash my "reasoning" and pierce my "rubrics"... Insodoing, He is merciful.

In my post, which you quoted, I was making two points - first, that we are each accountable as individuals. I agree with what you have said on this point. But secondly, there is a lot on this forum - and in particular this thread - that is seeking to instruct and admonish/shed light/ etc... on certain teachings and practices in the LC for a presumed audience of LC and ex-LC members - and there is an implicit goal to assign accountability. I see what Matt as doing is to point out something that was made into an idol. This is an important inquiry. The next question then - about the system and for the reader - is what it means for each of us that there was (or could have been) a systematic idolization of something in the LC? For the reader who is just beginning to realize there were idols or tendencies to replace Christ as the focus, there should be for that reader, and for ourselves, a robust discussion of everything the Scripture has to say about the matter.

What I am bringing forth is a consideration of 1 Corinthians 8-13 and the extent to which it would apply here.

Clearly, for the folks in Corinth, idols were prevelent in the culture. So, how should the COrinthians have addressed "flee from idolatry"? Did it mean to leave the church in Corinth or even the city generally? Perhaps, but probably not. In fact, Paul's instruction was about how to be before God and our brethren even when idols are present. It goes without question that Paul would admonish us to recognize idols as idols and not to sacrifice to them ourselves - but rather to make Christ pre-eminent in all we do. But what if you care not for the idols, but are among folks who do sacrifice to that idol? What if these folks want to serve you up food sacrifed to that idol?

There was a time when I felt superior to other Chrisitians and felt the LC was "IT". I almost didn't know how to be Christian, except to be unique. I have repented for this and am learning by His grace and mercy. But there was also a time I lived and pressed on in Christ with saints, some of whom held Witness Lee and the ground of locality with an esteem that was too much. When I heard testimonies which quoted Witness Lee, as if that was the foundation of its truth, rather than the Scripture - I think you could say, as an analogy, that that I was being offered food sacrificed to an idol. Did that prohibit me from "eating" or appreciating the substance of what was being shared? That's not a rhetorical question. What applies here: "flee from idolatry" (i.e. stand up and walk out of the meeting or something and tell everyone that they should do the same) or appreciate it for its substance, to the extent it brought me to Christ and His word and continue to labor with my brothers and sister to seek only Christ and His word.

I am not being precise in what I am questioning here. Perhaps I could rephrase this whole thought/post by asking, does 1 Cor. 8-13 applie here and if so, in what way?

Grace to you,

Peter

P.S. Thankful, this post is immediately responding to Nell's post, but the thought is also a response to your post. I don't think there are necessarily "categories of idolatry." However, I do wonder what "fleeing" idolatry is supposed to look like to the outside observer. I wonder if there are many in the LC who "fled" idolatry but yet their very remaining in the LC makes you think that they haven't. Thoughts on that?

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Did that prohibit me from "eating" or appreciating the substance of what was being shared?

Peter,

I believe the need to "flee idolatry" is a call to the hearts and minds of the Corinthian believers, but not with each man operating in island mode. Rather, we are brothers and sisters in the Lord and can help one another just as we have done on some of these forums.

I think I understand some of where you are coming from. I would like to respond with two things which are not necessarily direct responses to all of your inquiry. I've been studying 1 Corinthians 10 pretty closely and even in connection to the whole issue of Balaam and Balak as we looked at it in Revelation 2:14.

Let me start with the verse from John that many are familiar with:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I believe it has been previously pointed out that the word "word" in the greek here is actually rhema, not logos. I believe this is relevant. Jesus Christ is saying that the words He speaks to you are spirit and they are life. In my life I have to agree with this. Sometimes the "words" that others speak to me, even if they are from the Bible itself are not spirit and not life to me. Why? Because the Lord did not give them to me. I'm not discounting knowledge of the Word or study of the Word. It is the study and knowledge of the Word keeping the Lord as my Lord that has allowed His Word to be spoken to me at various times. I have been caught in the trap at times of study and knowledge of the Word in such a way that I believe I have gained some measure of control over it. The Bible can be lifted over God himself in some cases (I believe we know one of them from our previous foruming) in how a man relates to the concepts in the Word.

Now moving to 1 Corinthians 10 for a minute.

Paul parallels the OT children of Israel who have just exited Egypt with us. He makes a very strong and surprising parallel. He tells us that the children of Israel were eating and drinking the very same spiritual meat and spiritual drink.

1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The spiritual meat and drink of the OT children of Israel was manna from heaven and water from the rock. It was Christ.

Personally, I believe there is a strong linkage to John 6:63 here in 1 Corinthians 10 and when you explore the rest of it.

1 Corinthians 10 shows us that we cannot have the table of the Lord and the table of demons. They don't go together. What is the Lord's table? Is it not the Lord coming to dine with us and us with him. I know that the LC emphasizes the whole "eating" thing. I'm not going off on that tangent, but I believe it is important to realize the significance of what is happening at the Lord's table. It is communion at table with the Lord. There are pictures of this in the OT that help to clarify this further.

So, what happens when a man comes to the table of the Lord and offers up "Brother Lee says..." in reverence to Lee? Or what happens when someone offers up "in the Lord's Recovery we have..." in reverence to a unique (and conceptually divided) portion of the Body of Christ?

What is happening here? Are we remembering the Lord for what He did on the Cross that would bring us all into one body with all believers? Or are we partaking of something else when we begin to "partake" of what this man has offered to his/her idol?

I believe that when this happens we begin to mix the wrong kinds of things together with the table of the Lord. God cannot stand it. He departs. We cannot have both. From what I have heard this did not happen instantly, but the Enemy introduced an "angel of light" who had much "knowledge of the Word", but was dirty. He (the Enemy) subtly replaced the table of the Lord with the table of demons. I know this will not come across well. Sorry. I'm continuing to be blunt, because it is time to move beyond ignorance on some of these issues.

Again, back to Corinthians 10. The idol is nothing, but if we know something is offered to an idol we are not supposed to accept it. It is not holy. It's not in communion with the Lord, but with something else.

Back to the point here, we are given manna from heaven. We have the Lord in our lives and we have His Word. We are able to partake without adding to or taking away from the meal He provides (Give us this day our daily bread). We can become aware of when others are making their offering to someone other than the Lord. It may not have been possible in the past because of the level of ignorance among God's children, but God has been faithful to provide and begin to help us see.

We are given much admonition and instruction in the OT, which many set aside and put under the title of "that's Old Covenant, i'm under the New Testament" without realizing how much God gave us in the Old Covenant for our protection. It is rich with so much that the Lord can use to help shine light in our hearts. It can lead us to Christ (as Paul says) and it can help us guard against idols.

There is no way to avoid our sins of ignorance when they are done in true ignorance. We must be faithful to repent when the light comes and count on the mercies of God. He is faithful. Having been given a measure of light, we seek to be diligent knowing that even in our efforts (and with knowledge) we will still fail. We must be faithful to repent and again, receive the mercy of God. He is faithful.

Remember Paul calls on the OT in 1 Cor 10 to instruct the Corinthians and tells not to be ignorant (Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant). We can become informed, but this alone will not protect us.

We have to receive our spiritual food from one source. The Lord. We must learn how to walk in obedience to Him with the full knowledge of how much he loves us and is a true shepherd over us even if we are wayward sheep because we can be so dumb at times. I know I need a good shepherd. I've been a real idiot on many more than one occasion.

Important Note: I have no thought or ideal that people should only read the Bible. The Lord has spoken ("rhema") to me in various ways. Almost all of it through or based on scripture, but the main thing is that it is from the Lord. I have come to realize that in my life I have received things from other sources (not God) which have lead me astray and as I realize it, I simply repent of it and return back to the Lord.

Matt

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

P.S. Thankful, this post is immediately responding to Nell's post, but the thought is also a response to your post. I don't think there are necessarily "categories of idolatry." However, I do wonder what "fleeing" idolatry is supposed to look like to the outside observer. I wonder if there are many in the LC who "fled" idolatry but yet their very remaining in the LC makes you think that they haven't. Thoughts on that?

Hi Peter,

Once light dawns for someone on "idolatry," he/she has to address his/her own part in it before the Lord with repentance. If he/she has hurt others as a result, obviously those persons should also be addressed. Repentance means a change in behavior. God says concerning Mystery Babylon the Great, whose evil characteristics the LC system has, "come out of her my people." The evil characteristics are mainly 1: An authoritarian leadership with one at the top being "God's representative on the earth today declaring the "true" meaning of God's Words and will to the faithful and 2) A definition of oneness that is not God's definition. (These have been elaborated up on in earlier posts.)

So, what does "Come out of her my people mean" practically? So, as far as the LC goes we need to "flee" an authoritarian leadership system with one person being the main voice whose burden everyone ends up following (even in an LC where there is a "plurality" of elders... that would be a "leading" elder who always has the final say type person). Each believer needs absolute freedom to not follow someone else's burden and yet still be fully received. We also need to "flee" any type of definition of oneness which is not God's definition and which results in improperly relating to other brothers in Christ. It is a complete and thorough and absolute coming out in heart and mind, first and foremost.

Does this mean we cannot meet with people who believe and practice 1 and 2 above? To this I would say that it's really about what God tells us to do. So, if He, for His reasons, tells me to stay and continue to meet and I am clear about that before Him, then I stay; however, there should be no compromise on 1 and 2 just mentioned or I become a part of "her." That means if I see insistence on either of these things, I must speak up. If I see abuse taking place because of either/both of these things, I must speak up, etc.

As for what others think about what we do, in this case (re: who we meet with), what others think about what we do means nothing. It is my intention in what I share on this forum to help others view things in the light of the Bible and to encourage them to come back to its Words for themselves. If the Bible exposes certain deeds and practices as evil, then we have to take that seriously and stop participating in such things. Where or who I meet with is no one's business but mine. I must, however, practice the truth of Jesus being my Lord (no one else) and I must receive all believers. I also must confront sin when I see it, these two in particular because they are fundamental pillars of the LC.

That's a pretty short answer but captures the kernel of my thought.

Thankful Jane

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

...When I heard testimonies which quoted Witness Lee, as if that was the foundation of its truth, rather than the Scripture - I think you could say, as an analogy, that that I was being offered food sacrificed to an idol. Did that prohibit me from "eating" or appreciating the substance of what was being shared? That's not a rhetorical question. What applies here: "flee from idolatry" (i.e. stand up and walk out of the meeting or something and tell everyone that they should do the same) or appreciate it for its substance, to the extent it brought me to Christ and His word and continue to labor with my brothers and sister to seek only Christ and His word.

I'm going to begin my answer with a continuation of what TJ said:

"Once light dawns for someone on "idolatry," he/she has to address his/her own part in it before the Lord with repentance."

When the light dawned on me, the Lord led me out. It wasn't very much light and I know I was not equipped to help anyone. I could barely help myself out the door. I had just enough light to take that step. It was several years again before the Lord opened my eyes further and I began to understand what had happened to me, and even years later before the Lord began to put me into situations of helping others.

For me, I had to be totally out of the garlic room. Further, the garlic had to be out of me.

Interestingly, when I was still a Baptist, coming into the Local Church, the same questions were asked: can I not remain a Baptist and appreciate Witness Lee's ministry, to use your words, to the extent it brought me to Christ and His word and continue to labor with my Baptist brothers and sisters to seek only Christ and His word.

The elders/speakers, etc., shared strongly that we couldn't remain in the Baptist church and bring to it the reality of the "church life" we were seeing through Witness Lee. It wouldn't fit. The "church life" was the new wineskin and what we were experiencing was the new wine. To put the new wine into the old wineskin would cause the old wineskin to burst, and the new wine would be lost.

I think that is as true now as it was then, except that now, the Local Churches have become the old wineskin. The Local Churches cannot take anything but the ministry of Witness Lee, or it will burst.

Having said that, the Lord places us in His Body as it pleases Him. If He leads you to stay, then you obey.

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

...I am not being precise in what I am questioning here. Perhaps I could rephrase this whole thought/post by asking, does 1 Cor. 8-13 applie here and if so, in what way?

I'll have to do some reading on this one! Chapters 8-13...right?

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

...I wonder if there are many in the LC who "fled" idolatry but yet their very remaining in the LC makes you think that they haven't. Thoughts on that?

That's a good question. Speaking for myself, I assume that people who remain in the Local Churches are there because they are absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee and all the extreme loyalties that demands. I think fleeing idolatry and being absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee are mutually exclusive. I could be wrong.

Nell

[SpeakersCorner]

I've got a question for y'all. How's come Aaron never got punished for making the golden calf?

I think this may be germane to the present discussion in several ways.


SC

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I've got a question for y'all. How's come Aaron never got punished for making the golden calf?

I think this may be germane to the present discussion in several ways.

SC

Apparently the LORD heard the prayer of Moses for Aaron, but not for some of the others, because Deuteronomy 9:20 says the LORD was angry enough to destroy Aaron.

(Moses speaking)

18 Then once again I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the LORD's sight and so provoking him to anger. 19 I feared the anger and wrath of the LORD, for he was angry enough with you to destroy you. But again the LORD listened to me. 20 And the LORD was angry enough with Aaron to destroy him, but at that time I prayed for Aaron too.


I imagine it came down the hearts of the people. It's possible Aaron's heart was never really in worshipping that calf, he just make it to placate the people, whereas some of those people really were worshipping it.

I doubt it had anything to do with Aaron being spared because he was a leader, if that's what you are getting at.

[Matt Anderson]

Here is what I have thought since the beginning of this thread.

A. The LC system was too big for any one person to believe that they would not be succumbed by it. The only way not to be overcome by it is to leave it.

B. All who remained bear some measure of responsibility. The only real distinction between leadership and laity is that leadership may bear more responsibility. The laity still bears responsibility, because we are all members of one body. We are all just brothers/sisters in Christ and we must love one another even when that means taking tough actions that may cost us reputation, standing, etcetera among our brothers and sisters.

I do not speak out of turn on this point (B). I face this now where I meet right now. I'm faced with one or more elders who are 'lording it over' the flock and blindly acting in a manner that may finalize the destruction of a marriage. I see it and I am there. Therefore, I will bear some measure of responsibility if my lips remain sealed (Lev 19:17-18).

C. There are some who feel that they have somehow escaped the strong influence of the LC system. This is not true. Once you willingly enter into an idolatrous type of system (whether you know it is idolatrous or not) you will be affected to some extent. No exceptions. The only preservation is to remain focused on the Lord. The truth is that there is almost no setting that doesn't have some idolatry. As such, the presence of it does not preclude someone from going where the Lord leads. However, when it is done at a systematic level and becomes pervasive to an entire grouping of christians then the call is probably to "come out of her my people", for this grouping has gone the way of Babylon.

E. God is not judging us unto condemnation, but unto mercy. He is full of lovingkindness and full of mercy for us. None of what I have said comes from a spirit of meanness towards anyone. Part of what I have said has come from a resistance against one who feels that somehow they were a leader in the LC system and yet was not affected the same way everyone else was. I believe this is not true and the willingness to reconfront the facts with the appropriate person(s) would prove this out. In attempting to carve out a particular locality as being somewhat better, I felt it was necessary to resist this strongly. I know differently. I know the system that was established by the Enemy of God compromised everyone. I know the locality in question was not better. There may have been some attempts to be better, but they did not take and those left to endure the environment experienced the same oppressiveness and 'lording it over' the flock as other localities. Even this person has admitted to this on a point by point basis. (Note: We can review the record if needed) The Midwest has had an object lesson in the past several years in just how forceful the Enemy will be through "men of God" in attempting to maintain control over the souls of the saints through an environment like the LC. This cannot be minimized.

I do not speak out of turn on this point (E) either. I face this kind of environment where I work right now. Work is not church, but the principles of hierarchy under bad leadership which only cares for itself are the same. Nothing I can do will change my work environment. I'm very good at producing change in a work environment and I've already tried everything I know (plus some). This includes risking my job by standing up against the 'powers that be' and confronting the situation. They cannot fire me, because the customer may fire them. I cannot leave until the Lord grants me release, but in the meantime I have to be faithful to resist the evil that is here even at the risk of my income and livelihood. It's not fun at all. This is what I have been doing while I have been moderating the other forum. I've been trying to survive the worst job I have ever had. God is faithful and is using this for my highest good.

F. Was there anything good in the LC? Yes. Christ among the believers. Nothing of Him is lost. Nothing. The outworking of the Holy Spirit in the lives of many of the Lord's little ones happened, but they were as sheep set for the slaughter and in many cases the slaughter came at the hands of other brothers who thought they acted on behalf of the Lord. The Enemy established a mixture from the very beginning. This influence cannot be ignored. There are no "glory days" in which the Enemy was not working and had already planted the elements (certain wolves among the sheep) that have gone undetected for many, many years.

G. In the words and spirit of Joseph, "God meant it for good". Remembering the words of Amos, let us not forget the "affliction of Joseph". Many whose pasts are tied to the LC and have suffered at the hands of the LC have come to know the affliction of Joseph. (Note: Some may not get my reference to these verses... Sorry.)

Amos 6:1-7 (NASB95)
1 Woe to those who are at ease in Zion And to those who feel secure in the mountain of Samaria, The distinguished men of the foremost of nations, To whom the house of Israel comes. 2 Go over to Calneh and look, And go from there to Hamath the great, Then go down to Gath of the Philistines. Are they better than these kingdoms, Or is their territory greater than yours? 3 Do you put off the day of calamity, And would you bring near the seat of violence? 4 Those who recline on beds of ivory And sprawl on their couches, And eat lambs from the flock And calves from the midst of the stall, 5 Who improvise to the sound of the harp, And like David have composed songs for themselves, 6 Who drink wine from sacrificial bowls While they anoint themselves with the finest of oils, Yet they have not grieved over the affliction of Joseph. 7 Therefore, they will now go into exile at the head of the exiles, And the sprawlers’ banqueting will pass away.

G. My personal point of view: Do not be deceived by any person, leader or ex-leader who comes to you with enticing words. The Lord is your God. Listen to Him. Follow Him only as He will never lead you astray. Study the scripture and be convinced in your own mind. Consider the fact that the tasty delights that come from men's ministries can be leavened and you don't even know it until you have enough of your own grounding in the Word to challenge their ministry. Eat what the Lord feeds you because the meals He prepares for you are what you need to do all the good works He has prepared for you.

I'm going to add Ezekiel 34 to the record in my next post. I believe it fits.

Final Note: Although I have referenced one particular individual in my post, I must be clear. I am very grateful for this person. His willingness to dialogue as an ex-leader demonstrates his humility. This cannot be properly appreciated. I acknowledge my open resistance to some of what he has shared. I do not resist him because I dislike or disrespect him. I do it for the very opposite reason. I like him and I respect him. In addition, there are some other ex-leaders (and even some current Midwest leaders) who have been willing to dialogue. I am personally grateful because the dialogue is much needed for the healing that the Lord wants for each of us. He is restoring our soul(s). He is the true Shepherd that can do it properly.

If you consider that I have gone too far in what I have said about idolatry, then I am sorry. I'm not beating anyone over the head with it, but in the face of any attempts to recover the unrecoverable I feel responsible to establish on the table in front of everyone some important and grave facts about the history of the LC and Witness Lee. The deeds speak loudly of problems from even before Lee and the "system of the LC" entered the United States. Many were caught unaware.

Matt

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Apparently the LORD heard the prayer of Moses for Aaron, but not for some of the others, because Deuteronomy 9:20 says the LORD was angry enough to destroy Aaron.

(Moses speaking)

18 Then once again I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the LORD's sight and so provoking him to anger. 19 I feared the anger and wrath of the LORD, for he was angry enough with you to destroy you. But again the LORD listened to me. 20 And the LORD was angry enough with Aaron to destroy him, but at that time I prayed for Aaron too.


I imagine it came down the hearts of the people. It's possible Aaron's heart was never really in worshipping that calf, he just make it to placate the people, whereas some of those people really were worshipping it.

I doubt it had anything to do with Aaron being spared because he was a leader, if that's what you are getting at.

I dunno Igzy. God knew Aaron's heart and He was angry enough to destroy him. It looks to me like Moses' prayer for Aaron saved his bacon.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Nell

Interestingly, when I was still a Baptist, coming into the Local Church, the same questions were asked: can I not remain a Baptist and appreciate Witness Lee's ministry, to use your words, to the extent it brought me to Christ and His word and continue to labor with my Baptist brothers and sisters to seek only Christ and His word.

The elders/speakers, etc., shared strongly that we couldn't remain in the Baptist church and bring to it the reality of the "church life" we were seeing through Witness Lee. It wouldn't fit. The "church life" was the new wineskin and what we were experiencing was the new wine. To put the new wine into the old wineskin would cause the old wineskin to burst, and the new wine would be lost.

I think that is as true now as it was then, except that now, the Local Churches have become the old wineskin. The Local Churches cannot take anything but the ministry of Witness Lee, or it will burst.

Nell

Nell can't you have the reality of the church life not where you meet, but how you recieve and how the assembly you meet with recieve other Christians?

Terry

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Terry

Nell can't you have the reality of the church life not where you meet, but how you recieve and how the assembly you meet with recieve other Christians?

Terry

Terry,

Yes. Anything can happen. Does what you describe that fall within the definition of "absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee"? This is first and foremost in the Local Churches. Even the term "reality of the church life" is Witness Lee's terminology. It means something specific. Who else talks that way? It's all part of the program and really describes something that "only happens" under Witness Lee's ministry.

I don't see how a person can flee idolatry and remain in such a restrictive program. I'm not saying it can't happen though, I just see it as being mutually exclusive.

Nell

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Nell

The "church life" was the new wineskin and what we were experiencing was the new wine. To put the new wine into the old wineskin would cause the old wineskin to burst, and the new wine would be lost.

I think that is as true now as it was then, except that now, the Local Churches have become the old wineskin.

Yes, and this is why I read here. How do we go on?

[Nell]

The "church life" was the new wineskin and what we were experiencing was the new wine. To put the new wine into the old wineskin would cause the old wineskin to burst, and the new wine would be lost.

Originally Posted by Toledo

Yes, and this is why I read here. How do we go on?

Toledo,

I think a good place to go, at least start to go, is in these paragraphs:

(1) I believe that it is POSSIBLE for a Christian to be deceived.
(2) It is possible for ME to be deceived?
(3) I AM deceived.
(4) WHY am l deceived?

...
Just as there are various degrees of deception, so there are degrees of deliverance. Deliverance from deception is based on the understanding of the believer, and his WILLINGNESS To FACE ALL THE TRUTH ABOUT HIMSELF, and all the ground given to the enemy.

In doing this the believer needs to recover the ground in mind and body which he has ignorantly yielded to the foe. The deceived believer himself must ACT to get rid of passivity. He must revoke his CONSENT given to deceiving spirits to enter. By his own volition the believer must reject and revoke the gound (Ephes. 4: 27) the enemy has taken by deceit.

God will not act for believers in regaining lost ground, nor will He exercise His choice for the man. Man must himself stand on the ground of the victory of Christ on the cross and claim his freedom.

Assuming, then, that the believer has discovered that he is a victim of deception, what are the subjective steps in the path of freedom? Briefly,
(1) acknowledgment of deception;
(2) refusal of ground;
(3) steadfast fight against all that deception means;
(4) being on guard against excuses;
(5) the detection of all the effects of deception; and
(6) a discerning of the result of these actions.

When I was still meeting with the LC, I took the position that it was not possible for me to be deceived, because I was in "God's best". It was beyond my wildest dream that Christians could even be deceived. Other Christians maybe, but not me.

We do a lot of back and forth on these forums, and even on this thread. The thing that opened my eyes, more than all the back and forth in the world, was remembering all the doubts I had stuffed under my mattress. I'll use the example of idolatry. I didn't deny that I was an idolator. I asked the Lord to show me my idolatry.

Or, put another way, rather than assume I was in God's best, I had to acknowledge a very basic premise: my true condition.

THE BASIC FACT OF THE FALL
The primary fact to be recognized by every human being is the complete and utter ruin of the first creation at the Fall, when the First Adam admitted the poison of the serpent, which permeated and corrupted his whole being beyond repair. This fact of the utter corruption of the human race as a consequence of this is unmistakably declared in the New Testament:

"The old man, which waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit." (Eph. 4: 22 R.V.)
"Being darkened in their understanding; alienated from the life of God." (Eph. 4: 18).
"We all once lived in the lusts of the flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the rest." (Eph. 2: 3).

Thus the Apostle described the whole race of man, Gentile and Jew, Pharisee and Publican--in all, he said, "the prince of the power of the air" wrought, as "the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience."
These facts declared by the Word of God, and the reality of the blinded mind (2 Cor. 4: 4), and ruined condition of every human being, is the ONLY BASIS UPON WHICH THE TRUTHS WE ARE CONSIDERING ... CAN BE UNDERSTOOD, AND PROVED TO BE TRUE, IN EXPERIENCE AND PRACTICE.

From this position, we have nowhere to go but UP.

Nell

PS: These paragraphs in blue are from the writings of Jesse Penn-Lewis.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Nell

Toledo,

I think a good place to go, at least start to go, is in these paragraphs:

(1) I believe that it is POSSIBLE for a Christian to be deceived.
(2) It is possible for ME to be deceived?
(3) I AM deceived.
(4) WHY am l deceived?

Okay, I'm open (or at least as open as I know how). I can answer "yes" to points 1 and 2 with no problem. Points 3 and 4 are more problematic. I don't think it has yet been established that I have been deceived.

You can tell me all about the terrible things WL did or may have done, but how does that apply to me? I never thought he was the Vicar of Christ on Earth. That belongs to the LSM brothers.

For me WL was a bible teacher, and a frankly pretty good one. But my experience in the church life revolved around Christ, and the saints who were with me. What is it that I am supposed to be deceived about...?

I very much appreciate Ms. Penn-Lewis, but I am not sure how to apply this portion of her ministry to my life.

Best,

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Speaking for myself, I assume that people who remain in the Local Churches are there because they are absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee and all the extreme loyalties that demands. I think fleeing idolatry and being absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee are mutually exclusive. I could be wrong.

Nell

I literally have known hundreds of precious, loving saints who do NOT "remain in the Local Churches because they are absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee and all the extreme loyalties that demands." They do remain for a number of reasons, but primarily out of commitment to the Lord and the ones around them. That was my life for 30 years.