106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

[awareness]

ICA, I appreciate all the work you've done on this post. I wonder if all this about the Eastern Orthodox is more to convince yourself than us.

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" was written by Holy Father Athanasios the Great (born in 295), Archbishop of Alexandria, in his refutation of Arius during the First Ecumenical Council.

You mean "Holy" Athanasius that was exiled five times, for heresy. Maybe he wasn't all that holy. Were his writings inspired of God? Should we base our convictions on him?

Originally Posted by ICA

I believe the Church Fathers were much closer to Jesus, the Apostles, and their teaching than Luther, or modern Bible scholars, teachers, and commentators.

Dah. They were closer chronologically.

Originally Posted by ICA

The Church Fathers kept the faith, teaching, and tradition. If we who live in 2014 start to interpret the Holy Bible with our own logic and understanding, without tradition or, as the Orthodox Christians say, Holy Tradition, we may lose much of the Bible's treasure. (2 Thessalonians 2:15 “hold fast to the traditions you received from us, either by our word or by letter.”)

Do I need to quote Jesus on keeping the traditions of men?

You seem to want to paint a beautiful picture of Orthodoxy. But I see it completely differently.

Jesus said to judge a tree by it fruits.

And I see the Orthodoxy as a bad tree ... with horrible fruit. As I see it this bad tree started with the proto-orthodox, then was carried on by the Orthodox into a state religion that eventually committed many non-Christian atrocities. Why do you think Luther and the Reformation was so necessary? The Orthodoxy brought us the dark ages. What an ugly monstrous bad tree it became.

"Real interpretation of Scripture is Church preaching, is tradition" - St. Irenaeus (Born 130).

Irenaeus was a nutjob, and prolly one of the greatest heretics of all.

Read this silliness:
"There are four principle winds, four pillars that hold up the sky, and four corners of the universe; therefore, it is only right that there be four gospels."
-- Church father Irenaeus, late 2nd century


Should we really base our convictions on such an uninspired man? A man that was a seed for the bad tree called Orthodoxy?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

You mean "Holy" Athanasius that was exiled five times, for heresy. Maybe he wasn't all that holy. Were his writings inspired of God? Should we base our convictions on him?

I have read some about Athanasius, and it was all positive. His 5 exiles should really be considered persecution by the official state powers. His chief opponent was the much older Arius who linked his cause to the emperor Constantine, who wanted to make Christianity the religion of the state without knowing the truths of the scripture. The heresy of Arius (similar to today's JW's) was that Jesus was nor really God. Had Athanasius fought his battle for the faith under a less noble emperor (like one of the Caesars), he would have been martyred.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have read some about Athanasius, and it was all positive. His 5 exiles should really be considered persecution by the official state powers. His chief opponent was the much older Arius who linked his cause to the emperor Constantine, who wanted to make Christianity the religion of the state without knowing the truths of the scripture. The heresy of Arius (similar to today's JW's) was that Jesus was nor really God. Had Athanasius fought his battle for the faith under a less noble emperor (like one of the Caesars), he would have been martyred.

Yes whenever Arians had the power they pitched Athanasius to the curb. He even had to run for his life. These "Holy" Christians. both sides, killed each other over doctrine back then ; acting real Christian like.

Why should I have any high regard for them?

I feel like you guys want me to elevate these early church fathers like I once elevated Watchman Nee.

After being burned once for doing that, I can't do it no more.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes whenever Arians had the power they pitched Athanasius to the curb. He even had to run for his life. These "Holy" Christians. both sides, killed each other over doctrine back then ; acting real Christian like.

Why should I have any high regard for them?

I feel like you guys want me to elevate these early church fathers like I once elevated Watchman Nee.

After being burned once for doing that, I can't do it no more.

Any church father or martyr for the faith should be honored even as Jesus Himself honored those prophets which the Jews had killed, but we should not elevate them beyond what they were.

Even as Paul says when the Corinthians tried to uplift him, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord," and no one else.

Aye?

Brother awareness, unfortunately, many, even genuine Christians have saved their own hides by finding other more "suitable" sacrifices in their stead. Who knows what we would have done in their shoes? Martin Luther did this with the Anabaptists, and many of them died in the river being "baptized" by evil men. Witness Lee saved his own neck by sacrificing Ingalls and others. Church history is filled with all sorts of nasties like this. Only God in the end can sort it all out. Only His Son was pure, holy, righteous, and without sin.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Only His Son was pure, holy, righteous, and without sin.

Amen to that bro Ohio.

[InChristAlone]

Brothers, maybe I am really keen on the tradition too much. But I will explain you my point of view. There were over 30 Gospels (with big names: Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Philip, and Gospel of James, etc) but the early Church Fathers chose only 4. Why? Because they kept the tradition. And they knew that these 4 Gospels were held by the Apostles and did not distort Christ and His teaching like false gospels did. So the Church Fathers compiled the Holy Bible that was trustworthy for them AND is trustworthy for us.

Suppose the early Church Fathers and their teachings were all wrong. What makes us think that we, who live in 2014, are right? Or Luther? Or Nee? Or Lee? Do we keep the tradition? We can't even read the Gospel in ancient Greek. What makes us think that we understand the Bible better than the ancient Christians? We may know more but do we really understand? We are full of knowledge but lack of understanding.

Originally Posted by awareness

And I see the Orthodoxy as a bad tree ... with horrible fruit. As I see it this bad tree started with the proto-orthodox, then was carried on by the Orthodox into a state religion that eventually committed many non-Christian atrocities. Why do you think Luther and the Reformation was so necessary? The Orthodoxy brought us the dark ages. What an ugly monstrous bad tree it became.

Brother Awareness, the fruit of the Orthodox Church are thousands, and maybe millions of martyrs who loved God, testified their faith, and died for Christ.

The dark ages have nothing to do with the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Christian countries. The Dark Ages is a historical periodization used originally for the Middle Ages, which emphasizes the cultural and economic deterioration that supposedly occurred in Western Europe following the decline of the Roman Empire.

During most of its existence, the Eastern Empire (Byzantine Empire) was the most powerful economic, cultural, and military force in Europe. So the Byzantine Empire and then Orthodox Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Russia never had the dark ages. We have never been under Pope and we never knew papal infallibility, the Inquisition, the indulgences, Luther, and the Reformation. The dark ages are all about the Catholic Church and Catholic/ Protestant countries.

Anyway, may the Lord grant us wisdom to see the truth. I am sorry, I don't have time to continue the discussion.

I love you brothers. Christ is Risen!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

We may know more but do we really understand? We are full of knowledge but lack of understanding.

Same can be said for now in present time. When there's a focus of knowledge, the mark is missed on understanding. Knowledge leads to pride; what one group of Christians may know compared to another group of Christians. When there's the presence of pride, there's an absence of humility.
When there's effort to knowing the Bible, does one understand what the Bible is saying? Especially in fundamentals when it comes to:
1. What it is to love your neighbor as yourself
2. What it is to give grace
3. What it is to give mercy
4. What it is to bless and not curse
Etc.