Outer darkness: A thousand years? or for eternity?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Margaret Barber, Surrey Chapel and the Visitors from China
Around the beginning of 2009 the Surrey Chapel office received a request from a Christian group organizing a tour of Chinese Christians, which included a visit to Norwich. Could they come and visit Surrey Chapel, because they were on a study tour looking at various places of worship? Thinking that Surrey Chapel would be the last place tourists would want to look at – our present building is high on functional but decidedly low on numinous – we politely declined. We then received an email telling us not to be surprised if we see a coach pulling up outside the Chapel, because they were so keen to see our building that they would just come and look at it from the outside! It was something to do with the histories of our church and their church.

They were particularly keen to see some of Govett’s and Panton’s books in the Govett Room and to take photographs of everything. In the main Chapel upstairs, as they sat excitedly on the old Surrey Chapel wooden chairs, Professor Chen reminded them of why they were there. The story was inspiring.

Interesting, and ironic, for me, that this testimony is sandwiched in a discussion mentioning the Orthodox believers and their use of relics & icons. Are not these wooden chairs become icons for the disciples of Watchman Nee?

"Professor Chen reminded them of why they were there" ... yes indeed; why they were there: to excitedly sit in Surrey Chapel's wooden chairs, and to take videos of the building.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Interesting, and ironic, for me, that this testimony is sandwiched in a discussion mentioning the Orthodox believers and their use of relics & icons. Are not these wooden chairs become icons for the disciples of Watchman Nee?

"Professor Chen reminded them of why they were there" ... yes indeed; why they were there: to excitedly sit in Surrey Chapel's wooden chairs, and to take videos of the building.

Could this not be considered a more contemporary version of Christians visiting the holy lands?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Could this not be considered a more contemporary version of Christians visiting the holy lands?

Yes, it could. I find the irony in that the Lee ministry, anyway (I don't know much about Nee) made such hay about "fallen" and "natural" and "degraded" Christianity.

Yet they do the same thing. They venerate their history, and condemn others for essentially doing what they also practice.

That was what I was pointing out. It's fine to go look at buildings and sit in old wooden chairs where ME Barber might have once sat. But to then condemn other Christians for their pilgrimages and relics is simply hypocritical.

"You who condemn, do you not also do the same thing?" Cf Rom. 2:1; Luke 6:37

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

the Lee ministry, anyway made such hay about "fallen" and "natural" and "degraded" Christianity.

Yet they do the same thing. They venerate their history, and condemn others for essentially doing what they also practice...

"You who condemn, do you not also do the same thing?" Cf Rom. 2:1; Luke 6:37

Someone told me about going to Anaheim in the mid 1990s. The Chinese would gather around Witness Lee's leather chair between meetings and pose for photos. The bold ones would sit in the chair for a photo.

Of course the "ministry" would condemn such practices. But they do promote ancestor worship, or whatever they want to call it. "Closely following the teachings of the apostles" or some such. Or, "our rich heritage." So is anyone shocked when busloads of Chinese tourists show up at Surrey Chapel for photo ops?

It's the same old, same old. "When we do it, it's okay, but when other Christians do it, then it's fallen humankind, and must be exposed and rebuked."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Interesting, and ironic, for me, that this testimony is sandwiched in a discussion mentioning the Orthodox believers and their use of relics & icons. Are not these wooden chairs become icons for the disciples of Watchman Nee?

"Professor Chen reminded them of why they were there" ... yes indeed; why they were there: to excitedly sit in Surrey Chapel's wooden chairs, and to take videos of the building.

So aron, you have not been convinced of the inherent value of icons, vestments, and theosis?

Perhaps you also are obsessed with the external side of things, and have missed the true meanings? Possibly you also have been misinformed?

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So aron, you have not been convinced of the inherent value of icons, vestments, and theosis?

Perhaps you also are obsessed with the external side of things, and have missed the true meanings? Possibly you also have been misinformed?

I am sorry, I am not Aron. I don't have his intelligence, knowledge, and spirit. But I believe that "obsessed" means "preoccupied or filled the mind of (someone) continually and to a troubling extent".

Brother, the Orthodox Church is not about icons, vestments, and theosis. It's about leading a spiritual life that leads one to Christ.

I am glad that in your spiritual life you are not like those lowly and ignorant Orthodox Christians. You don't focus on icons, vestments, and theosis, but Christ alone. God bless.