The LCS Factor

[Paul Cox]

Matt,

I apologize if I have stepped out of line. I mean you no harm. But, as Ohio said, it was out of frustration.

Please remember, this is an open forum. You express your opinion, I express my opinion, and others express their opinion. Anyone of us can feel that we are commissioned by the Lord to bring forth a burden, and therefore must be faithful to that speaking. If you have this view then you can never feel that we are trying to stop you from anything.

This is a sore spot with some of us because we were trained in a system where one man came forth with what he felt was the "burden" from the Lord, and anybody who dared to contradict him was accused of trying to stop the very move of the Lord.

That should not be what is going on here. You say that everyone in the Local Church system is engaging in idolatry, just by being in the group (unless I misunderstand you). I say not so. I say according to the standard you set, everybody in America is guilty of idolatry, and everybody in every church around the world is guilty of idolatry.

But you know what that is? It is your opinion versus my opinion and that is all. You feel you are clear from the Lord to bring forth this burden. I feel equally clear to say, "no, you are going too far." But it is still just your opinion verses my opinion, and nothing more. It is not you having a burden from the Lord while I'm trying to stop you. That would make you God's oracle, and me just an "opposer." Lord knows, we've been there; done that.

Please accept my apology, and know that I just want to go on in peace. But I would ask you one more time to please consider a separate thread for the subject of idolatry. That's a request and nothing more. It is not the unstoppable speaking from heaven.

Roger

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Roger

But you know what that is? It is your opinion versus my opinion and that is all. You feel you are clear from the Lord to bring forth this burden. I feel equally clear to say, "no, you are going too far." But it is still just your opinion verses my opinion, and nothing more. It is not you having a burden from the Lord while I'm trying to stop you. That would make you God's oracle, and me just an "opposer." Lord knows, we've been there; done that.

I agree with you on this Roger and I'm no oracle.

Originally Posted by Roger

Please accept my apology, and know that I just want to go on in peace. But I would ask you one more time to please consider a separate thread for the subject of idolatry. That's a request and nothing more. It is not the unstoppable speaking from heaven.

Roger

Apology accepted and I am sorry if my thoughts are frustrating you. I realize that they are. I feel it is important for me to be honest and direct on this issue. Based on our past interactions I have seen the quality of the kind of person you are and I know you have an excellent heart towards the Lord and others. Nothing on this thread will change that.

Here is the only reason I am not taking you up on your request about moving to another thread. The question posed was about how the LCS has affected 1st and 2nd generation LCers and LCer families. I introduced systemic idolatry as a key part of the LCS factor. I introduced it with a broad-brush. I knew then and I realize now that there were going to be objections.

Per your suggestion, I am proceeding at this time with presenting a more complete context for why I am sticking with such an extreme position at this time.

In my heart, I do not condemn anyone based on the substance of this thread. I can only say that knowing that some will not believe me. I have committed many errors in my life. I have received much mercy from God. The discipline I have received has never match my crimes against the Lord. In His lovingkindness, He has always treated me so well. Sometimes, I haven't liked it but I end up realizing later how he was working for my highest benefit. God's mercy is extended to us all and we are already justified through Christ. I cannot condemn what God does not. I can agree with God that sin is sin, but the judgment we receive for our unconfessed sins is still judgment unto mercy and not condemnation. This is how much love our Lord, God and Savior has for us.

To conclude, I am surely putting forward facts, information, and opinions regarding this issue of idolatry with a strong linkage to the topic of this thread. It is the very context of this thread that makes what I am saying more important. I am not talking about idolatry for the sake of idolatry. I'm talking about it because of it's impact on the lives of many.

Matt

[Matt Anderson]

LCS Factor #683

I believe it is important to further solidify the actions of T. Austin Sparks in relationship to Witness Lee and the "ground of locality" disagreement.

Morris Fred has noted the following which he gleaned from both sides of the split in Taiwan.

Sparks, however, felt that this doctrine was too dogmatic and had the effect of turning the principle of locality (which had been discussed by Nee) into a doctrine one which another sect or denomination was being formed, hindering the desired goal of universal fellowship among all Christians. Thus, he encouraged the co-workers within the various local churches to establish contact with other church groups and to preach the gospel in meetings other than their own. Lee correctly saw this as a potential subversion of the organization of the Local Church as it existed in Taiwan. The result was that some of the co-workers and elders were sympathetic with Sparks' position and others maintained allegiance to Lee.

It is posited Sparks' was concerned that Lee was taking what was Nee's "principle of locality" and turning it into a "doctrine of locality".

If you listen to Sparks' message you will hear him specifically address his concerns in front of the whole church there in Taiwan with Lee translating his message.

Why did Sparks' tell it to the church? Because Sparks' was being a faithful brother to Witness Lee.

It is documented that Lee and Sparks had already:

a) Discussed this matter privately.
b) Discussed this matter with witnesses to establish the matter

(If you want references to these facts, please respond and I will get them).

Remember Matthew 18 --> (go privately, go with witnesses, tell it to the church). Well, Sparks' was faithful and did it. He did not stop at telling just a few witnesses. He told the whole church. Lee was furious. Sparks had planted a seed (which was based on the truth in the Word of God) that would cost Lee dearly in his pre-eminence in the Taiwan churches.

Fact: Lee was being confronted because he was in error and leading entire congregations away from the Word of God. His error was a false teaching. The false teaching of the ground of locality as a core doctrine. The fruit of this teaching has borne out it's falseness over the past 50 years. It is false.

Lee needed this false teaching or he could (or would) lose control. This forms a central lynch pin by which to measure Lee's and the BB's deeds throughout his time in the US and across many different situations in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and even into the 2000's by his well-trained successors.

T. Austin Sparks argued that the idea of locality was too small for the Lord. Too small for Christ! Lee responded that you had to have a glass in which to put the water! Lee needed a means of control of God's people. Lee needed to be between God and each man for Lee's own purposes.

I'm not lifting up T. Austin Sparks. I am establishing his true witness which given many years ago in faithfulness to the Lord.

Final Reminder: T. Austin Sparks confronted Lee to the whole church in Taiwan before Witness Lee ever entered the United States. This is important. I will come back to this point later.

If you don't think I am heading towards the extremely broad level of idolatry, I will get there soon enough.

(To be continued)

Matt

P.S. Is there a principle of locality which is non-essential? Yes, but it can be lifted too high in your mind. Does it form the basis for a doctrine? No. We meet with those who are geographically convenient, but it is not a doctrine and should not be taught prescriptively or with any emphasis. It's an implicit fact and this is why it is presented descriptively in the Word of God. Furthermore, it surely should not be used to interlink many congregations together across many continents under a single minister/ministry.

In the case of the LC, the 'ground of locality' doctrine has really just a back door to re-introducing the Babylonian system of worship (of hierarchical authority under one demi-god (aka oracle of God/minister of the age) with improper submit & obey principles making "lords" of mere men.) We can see from a distance the results of that kind of system in the Roman Catholic Church. If we are willing to look, we can see the results up close in the Local Churches of Witness Lee.

[Timotheist]

I took a little break from these forums, and just now read (most of) this sad thread.

As what seems par for the course on the other forum, here we see people who are ex-members of the LC fighting amongst themselves. And, as at the other forum, the escalation of the conflict lies almost solely on the shoulders of Matt and TJ.

I came to this forum to get away from this obsessive nonsense. Here I see the disease manifesting itself at full throttle... against Don (Hope) of all people, a man who was in the LC system but clearly not a member of the inner circle of corruption.

Don, I Hope you hang around in spite of the Pharisees. It was good to hear from you again after all of these years.

The problem with the LC in child raising is simply this, Witness brought into the eldership the Chinese way of raising kids, where humiliation is accepted by the culture as a proper tool. What WL failed to see is that our culture would not embrace such methods.

I too was the target of more than one elder lecture. My reaction was one of rebellion rather than acceptance. I did not accept these men as having the authority to make such pronouncements over me. I am sure that this reaction among the American kids to a foreign culture lies at the heart of why so many LC kids left the LC.

The eldership mistook this cultural thing as a spiritual thing and went along. This is not idolatry, this is just the myopic leading the myopic.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

This is not idolatry, this is just the myopic leading the myopic.

Timotheist,

What is idolatry? Just looking for your definition to interpret your meaning.

If it were just a cultural thing, then the Church in Taiwan would not have split over the issues related to authority/submission. Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. It goes beyond a general cultural issue as the evidence indicates.

By the way, a number of people in our culture did embrace the methods of Lee, but not a large number relative to the whole population.

Matt

Originally Posted by Timotheist

As what seems par for the course on the other forum, here we see people who are ex-members of the LC fighting amongst themselves. And, as at the other forum, the escalation of the conflict lies almost solely on the shoulders of Matt and TJ.

P.S. Thanks for all the credit on this forum and the other one. Such a generalization is pretty nasty as well, but you've gotten to say your piece. Care to establish your sweeping indictment with more facts. At least I try to establish what I am saying with information and not just make the broad generalizations. In addition, I attempt to point it topically and not personally (I know I haven't always succeeded on this second point). I know others may not agree with me, but I don't turn and start playing dirty pool like you just did.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Matt

Timotheist,

What is idolatry? Matt

I short, idolatry is devotion to anything other than God.

Is your obseesion with discrediting the LC your own personal idol?

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I short, idolatry is devotion to anything other than God.

Do you mean it is something like agreeing to be part of a church system that puts the success of the church system and it's growth over following the Lord with a pure heart? Do you mean it is something like agreeing to put church activities and functions over and above your responsibility to bring your children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord as the Lord instructs?

Does that fit within your definition?

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Is your obseesion with discrediting the LC your own personal idol?

No, it's not. My life as a whole is proof of this fact. If you would care to get to know me and my walk in life I believe it would be self-evident. If that is the appearance based on my involvements on two internet forums, then I will suffer that appearance.

Interested in finding out? We could take it up in a phone call as this is more conducive to that kind of discussion.

I think I added more to my last post while you were posting that you might want to review.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt

Timotheist,

What is idolatry? Just looking for your definition to interpret your meaning.

If it were just a cultural thing, then the Church in Taiwan would not have split over the issues related to authority/submission. Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. It goes beyond a general cultural issue as the evidence indicates.

By the way, a number of people in our culture did embrace the methods of Lee, but not a large number relative to the whole population. Matt

P.S. Thanks for all the credit on this forum and the other one. Such a generalization is pretty nasty as well, but you've gotten to say your piece. Care to establish your sweeping indictment with more facts. At least I try to establish what I am saying with information and not just make the broad generalizations. In addition, I attempt to point it topically and not personally (I know I haven't always succeeded on this second point). I know others may not agree with me, but I don't turn and start playing dirty pool like you just did.

Brother Matt,

When like-minded observers like Timotheist, who come back to the forum with a fresh perspective, and are startled with what they view as an "obsession" in your posts, then shouldn't you consider his point of view? Observations are what they are, even if they are not loaded with "information."

Many have made valid and helpful comments about the "culture factor," and you dismiss Timotheist's comments here categorically. How do you know that "issues related to authority / submission" were not very much on the hearts on the Taiwan saints during the 50's and 60's? To entirely make that conflict a matter of "church ground" is not realistic. Others have written that the saints in Taiwan were very upset over the sale of church property to pay off personal debts. Usually "trigger points" are not the "whole point," conflicts such as that one are complicated indeed.

What also troubles me are your continued comments that you are being faithful to God and His word, as if no other dissenting poster is. You make comments that we are not being "honest" with the facts, and afraid of the "light shining" in dark or grey areas, as if you alone are in the light, are honest with our history, approach God in the light, and are faithful to speak honestly.

I have written before that your posts not only condemn all LC'ers, but also all of God's people, whether wheat or tares, lukewarm or diligent, serving or visiting, none is excluded. You have inferred that since "all Israel is idolatrous," then all the church must be also. Nothing one can say has altered your views one bit. I see warnings in the N.T. but no such views as yours. For you to say object to Timotheist's "sweeping indictments and broad generalizations," is exactly what I have tried to do with some of your posts.

Hoping for peace in Christ Jesus.

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Matt,

When like-minded observers like Timotheist, who come back to the forum with a fresh perspective, and are startled with what they view as an "obsession" in your posts, then shouldn't you consider his point of view? Observations are what they are, even if they are not loaded with "information."...

...Hoping for peace in Christ Jesus.

No matter how it goes, it is a good thing for everyone to have freedom to speak their own view and experience. Let's all pray the Lord bring us together in peace and moderation. In my experience, it is the extremes where one get's into trouble. Philippians 4:5 - Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

The Chinese culture brought into many of the local churches cannot be discounted. I, for one, watched the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies with total understanding of how that many people could be brought together into total syncronization. I understood this because of my own experience with this culture. Even with that said, I remember when I kept a sister from Taiwan in my home for a period of time. She had tons of questions which I was not accustomed to hearing or answering. She had her own opinion. She did not understand why sisters here did not wear makeup, high heals, or nice clothing. She did not understand why we did not have big weddings. She said it was very different in Taiwan. So perhaps we had just created our own new culture of Quaker-Chinese-Protestant Fundamentalist-Brethren-Pentacostal-Sort-a-kinda (I hope you get the point)

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How do you know that "issues related to authority / submission" were not very much on the hearts on the Taiwan saints during the 50's and 60's? To entirely make that conflict a matter of "church ground" is not realistic. Others have written that the saints in Taiwan were very upset over the sale of church property to pay off personal debts. Usually "trigger points" are not the "whole point," conflicts such as that one are complicated indeed.

Where exactly did I say that authority / submission didn't have anything to do with it? Where exactly did I say it was only an issue of church ground?

I agree that there were other factors including mismanagement of funds. There were other factors too. However, what I brought forward is the fact that God through T. Austin Sparks addressed one very specific factor. The doctrine of the "ground of locality". God knew Lee was off on that topic. It was/is a false teaching.

I did not introduce this as an exclusive factor. I introduced it as a crucial factor.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I am not putting words in yours. Check what I wrote. Read it again. I believe you've misinterpreted it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

What also troubles me are your continued comments that you are being faithful to God and His word, as if no other dissenting poster is. You make comments that we are not being "honest" with the facts, and afraid of the "light shining" in dark or grey areas, as if you alone are in the light, are honest with our history, approach God in the light, and are faithful to speak honestly.

Where have I said that others are not being faithful? Please quote a place where I have said you are not being "honest" with the facts, so that I may respond to a specific.

You are making claims about where I am coming from that are not things I have posited, nor do I think them. Nice try, but I will simply deny them. If you want to confront me because you believe I am terribly wrong in all of this, then let's plan for a get together. Let's invite everyone you've been conversing with (on-line and off-line) and have a meeting to address it.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have written before that your posts not only condemn all LC'ers, but also all of God's people, whether wheat or tares, lukewarm or diligent, serving or visiting, none is excluded. You have inferred that since "all Israel is idolatrous," then all the church must be also. Nothing one can say has altered your views one bit. I see warnings in the N.T. but no such views as yours. For you to say object to Timotheist's "sweeping indictments and broad generalizations," is exactly what I have tried to do with some of your posts.

To Timotheist I said, "If it were just a cultural thing, then the Church in Taiwan would not have split over the issues related to authority/submission. Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. It goes beyond a general cultural issue as the evidence indicates."

I did not dismiss his statements categorically. I said that it was not just a cultural thing. We all know culture had something to do with it and recently it has been stated that this was a key issue. It is obvious in what I wrote that I did not categorically dismiss the fact that culture was involved. I said that it went beyond a general culture issue.

Calling out sin is not condemnation. You think I have crossed a line in this regard. I realize that, but I have been careful to stay focused on sinful deeds and not to turn 'idolatry' into making Christians 'idolaters'. You are responding to my comments repeatedly claiming that I am condemning persons. I am not. I am condemning sin.

You're partial quote does not account for the fact that I acknowledged I am making sweeping generalizations. I only indicated that I am at least trying to back mine up with information and not just make the broad generalizations.

Care to establish your sweeping indictment with more facts. At least I try to establish what I am saying with information and not just make the broad generalizations. In addition, I attempt to point it topically and not personally (I know I haven't always succeeded on this second point).

Why don't we simplify something here. Do you believe you never committed idolatry in your time in the LC as a result of your involvement in the system of the LC? If so, why do you believe you are excluded from it? What do you believe is the threshold for committing the sin of idolatry from God's point of view?

I've asked you several specific questions that you have skated past. I have tried to address your points. Care to address some specifics as focused on the substance of the topic rather than the messenger whose message you don't like?

I'm still telling you that I acknowledge what you are saying. I acknowledge what you are saying about Timotheist. It's obvious that I am not "hearing" you, but this doesn't mean I am ignoring you.

Roger had it exactly correct. I'm saying, yes there was massive idolatry. He is saying, no there was not. It's that simple. The only difference is that I am presenting additional information and you still want me to shut up.

Matt

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I took a little break from these forums, and just now read (most of) this sad thread.

As what seems par for the course on the other forum, here we see people who are ex-members of the LC fighting amongst themselves. And, as at the other forum, the escalation of the conflict lies almost solely on the shoulders of Matt and TJ.

I came to this forum to get away from this obsessive nonsense. Here I see the disease manifesting itself at full throttle... against Don (Hope) of all people, a man who was in the LC system but clearly not a member of the inner circle of corruption.

Don, I Hope you hang around in spite of the Pharisees. It was good to hear from you again after all of these years.

The problem with the LC in child raising is simply this, Witness brought into the eldership the Chinese way of raising kids, where humiliation is accepted by the culture as a proper tool. What WL failed to see is that our culture would not embrace such methods.

I too was the target of more than one elder lecture. My reaction was one of rebellion rather than acceptance. I did not accept these men as having the authority to make such pronouncements over me. I am sure that this reaction among the American kids to a foreign culture lies at the heart of why so many LC kids left the LC.

The eldership mistook this cultural thing as a spiritual thing and went along. This is not idolatry, this is just the myopic leading the myopic.

Hello and good to hear from you Timotheist,

The culture thing is a very important item. We had some anti-modern, Puritan, Plymouth Brethren, Madame Guyan (sp) mysticism, and Chinese Culture mixed together and identified as spiritual. I am sorry about some of the elders puting this on you when you were younger. If I was one, I repent.

To the Forum as a whole:

I need to take a break from active participation for a while. I am in a very busy time at work but mainly I need the time to write some hymns for an uncoming conference in Westminster. We will have four meetings starting Friday, Oct. 17 thru the Lord's Day morning. At the current time, the Lord is leading toward the Good News of Jesus Christ as revealed in the book of Romans.

Rom 1:15-17, Thus, for my part, I am eager to proclaim the gospel, (Good News) to you also who are in Rome. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, (Good News), for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

I am busting with eagerness and excitement regarding the Good News. IT IS THE POWER OF GOD. Perhaps you have seen the dancing and shouting in the streets of the cities and towns of the USA when victory in WWII was anounced. That good news produced a reaction. When we hear the GOOD NEWS it produces a reaction in us. There is power in the Gospel. I had better stop before I get too carried away.

By the way, if any of the forum would like to join in the fellowship, email me and I will get you any necessary information. dfr144@aol.com

In Christ Jesus there is Hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge