The LCS Factor

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I think a better way for me to say it would be to say that the leadership system is one which expects absolute submission. If the expected submission is not given at any point, the system will carry out discipline or punishment.

Isn't this what was present among us in the LCs?

Thankful Jane

Not absolutely. Not all localities expect absolute submission. A big difference is whether one writes against the leadership system.

If I may be so bold to say Jane, such as what you experienced in Houston is what I define as an obsession. The leadership system you were under expected absolute submssion to this obsession. As I read in an earlier post of yours:

"This is the problem we are talking about. We need to understand what happened there. I was loving Jesus, reading my Bible, reading other's Christian testimonies, loving the brothers and sisters and sharing what I was enjoying from times with the Lord in the Word. I was starting to find my freedom in Christ and realizing I did not have to submit to what men were telling me was God with regard to my practical life. I had not one thought against Witness Lee. I spoke not one word against Witness Lee. I was enjoying God and my Christian family. Then came the ax. It was wielded by the power invested in the hierarchy and I bowed to it and kept my face in that dirt until God mercifully lifted me up out of the pit I had been left in."

The leadership had a particular obsession which you were not promoting nor opposing. You were being built up in Christ through His Word. Since you didn't share what your local leadership were pushing, your indifference spawned the improper discipline wielded against you. Which in turn adversely affected fellowship with the saints in Houston and presumably in other localities. Had you been in a place like Atlanta, would the same type of obsession result in discipline? I think not.

Sister Jane, it's one thing to have improper conduct towards a brother or sister. There's time for repentance and reconciliation. When we turn our back when offenses are brought to our attention, it only exposes where the heart is. This isn't specifically directed towards you, but for any brother or sister that has been truly offended.

Terry

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A.N.Groves, whom I believe was the original and most spiritual of the Plymouth Brethren, once wrote a long prophetic letter to J.N.Darby warning him of this. He addressed so many issues the LC's also face. On this matter he concluded, "[/the most narrow-minded and bigoted will rule, because his conscience and cannot and will not give way, and therefore the more enlarged heart must yield." Darby never took his fellowship. Less than a decade later, the Brethren were divided, the blessing was over.

One exception in history did take place in Bristol. Darby, "the Diligent," the hot-tempered Irishman, ran into a German, a man of God, with the resolve of steel, and child-like faith, who clung to the scriptures, who had the courage and the audacity to stand up to Darby, "the Bully." Darby came to town, pushing people around, and he said "No." His name was George Muller. He loved orphans more than programs.

Thanks for sharing this, Ohio. It says a lot.

“Darby came to town, pushing people around.” I don’t think Darby just woke up one day and decided he would be the boss. This started somewhere in seed form and grew. When he began to think more highly of himself than he should and began thinking he had the right to tell others what to do, he was on the slippery slope. When those gathered around him supported his belief, the fallout from going down that slope became much worse. The brethren movement started with all involved on the same level as brothers in Christ and no thoughts of hierarchy.

The strength of George Mueller was his “resolve of steel” and “child-like faith” and that he “clung to the scriptures.” This is what we are all called to be like. He loved God and put Him above all else. Darby could not lord it over him because Mueller was serving God only. He treated Darby as an equal, which he was, not a superior. It appears that God was faithful to warn Darby through A. N. Groves’ speaking and through Meuller’s example.

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hope, thanks much for introducing the complementary matter of mercy in Rom 12.8. This is a very helpful explanation for me and many others, I believe. As I read your description of BP in Texas, I could easily substitute the GLA region under TC, or Anaheim under WL. Diligent leadership must be balanced by gifts of mercy. The Apostle Paul was one such pattern to us all. He was "diligent" like a father, but "merciful" like a mother.

It is clear to me from looking into the Bible about mercy, that it does not mean something akin to turning a blind eye. In the Bible, mercy is given to those that love Him, fear Him, hope in Him, return to Him, are His servants, confess and forsake sins, and similar language. Mercy frees us from paying our debt, but it doesn’t appear to be given without our acknowledgment of need for it (by confessing, admitting). (Matt. 18:23-27, Prov. 28:13)

I don’t think that being silent when we see our brother sin is to be merciful (not that I think anyone is saying that, but that is a conclusion that could be drawn from what has been said). If we don’t tell him his sin, that is not mercy, that is failure to love (Lev. 19:17). If we love our brother we will tell him his sin. Then we are in a position to show him mercy.

The brothers who allowed Benson to take action based on false assumptions and false information and who did not tell him the truth, were not showing him mercy. Neither were they loving him. Their silence hurt him.

I was guilty of the same when Benson came down on me. If I had truly cared about him, I would have attempted to tell him the truth and show him his false assumptions concerning the action he took against me. My submission to his treatment was actually a self protective hiding place. Instead of loving him, I was loving myself. Of course, I didn’t understand this at the time, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

I was primarily struggling to survive mentally. Somewhere under all of that was also my fear of losing my church family. I can find a number of believable excuses for my silence if I wanted to, but there is no point to do so. It took the Lord a long time (after we were out!) and some difficult circumstances to get me to a place of obedience to his word concerning addressing offenses. I finally spoke the truth in love to Benson in a long letter in the early 90s.

The fact that my obedience had no apparent effect at that time is not important. I needed to be obedient to God. The requirement to obey wasn’t nullified by the passage of time. God required my obedience for Benson’s sake as well as my own.

Where might Benson be today if the majority of those of us who were around him had been faithful, as each offense happened, to risk ourselves and to tell him the truth in love.

Sooner or later we will all be obedient. Offenses don't just evaporate and neither do their longterm effects. There is no statute of limitations on our need as God's children to properly address offenses against each other. According to the Bible, all whom Benson has directly hurt or offended are obligated to communicate with him about the specifics privately, with a few other witnesses, and then publicly. (This is true with anyone for that matter!)

Actually, now that I think about it, according to the Bible we are clearly taught to do this before we speak publicly about the offenses of others.

Yes, here again are those good 'ole Matt. 18:15-17 commands of Jesus.

Thankful Jane

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

The brothers who allowed Benson to take action based on false assumptions and false information and who did not tell him the truth, were not showing him mercy. Neither were they loving him. Their silence hurt him.

TJ, I agree with what you say, but we now have the advantage of hindsight ... and the relative safety of being at home and typing on our computers. There was only one time when I "stood up" to a bully in authority, and I got hurt pretty badly. Actually you "got it" much worse because your wounds were emotional and psychological, which take much longer to heal.

Based on all I know at this point, the best and safest course of action for the abused is to leave and find healing in the Lord. Probably the (continued) experience of abuse reinforces the fact that there is no one else nearby who can adequately "protect" the abused. Down the road, if the anointing directs you to write or make contact with an abuser, then the steps taken should be slow and careful. All the ones I know have taken this course.

I know you will say, "someone should speak up!" Even such a one as George Muller in his prime, nearly succumbed to the power of Darby and his minions. The gifted and scholarly B.W.Newton in Plymouth had already been overcome by Darby's overwhelming onslaughts. When Darby could not "conquer" Newton in the brothers' meetings, Darby took the battle public, persuading the minds of the congregation. Slowly almost all of Newton's supporters took to Darby's side. Imagine the pressure Muller faced a few yers later. Some in his own congregation were against him.

Brothers like JND and TC and BP and WL are powerful men indeed. Their natural talents far outweigh my own. They have great ability to help many and to hurt many. Each of them have done much of both. Hence, some saints love them and some saints hate them. Many saints just can't come to grips with this great paradox. How could they be both good and bad? The facts of history confirm what I say.

My point has always been that they don't need to act this way. This behavior does not show largeness of heart. They were only hurting their own ministry. The Apostle Paul was not a patten to us in this way.

[Thankful Jane]

"Absolute submission" are two words that come close but don't explain clearly the dynamic at work in such a structure of leadership. I'm trying to say that there was a structure in place that gave the devil the way to exercise evil control over people. The level of control was totally dependent upon the degree of submission. The submission was not instantly something "absolute," but that is what the enemy was working towards behind the scenes and seeking to achieve over time.

When people become convinced that they need to give their loyalty to a hierarchy of men who teach particular teachings, they have taken another master. Did we all do this? No. I don't think so. Did those in leadership who had already taken such a master want this kind of submission from everyone? Yes. I think so. Again, all of this is the enemy at work among us. He is very happy to have us on a slow boat to bondage.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Based on all I know at this point, the best and safest course of action for the abused is to leave and find healing in the Lord. Probably the (continued) experience of abuse reinforces the fact that there is no one else nearby who can adequately "protect" the abused. Down the road, if the anointing directs you to write or make contact with an abuser, then the steps taken should be slow and careful. All the ones I know have taken this course.

I totally agree with you on this. Once abused, you no longer have the tools to work with. You have to get better over time and go the slow route as God helps you heal. Others who have recovered from abuse can help.

In my opinion, all that has been talked about on this thread is for our learning. It’s just like women today who are learning that they do not have to submit to violent husbands. Women in my mother’s day did not know this and there were no people talking about this. Many women suffered immensely in silence. Today is different because there is a wealth of information and many people and organizations available to help.

We are here talking about abuse in a Christian setting. I think this is much more rampant than we realize. If more people have an understanding of what allows spiritual bullies to operate among Christians and learn how to say “NO,” instead of trying to be “Christian,” abuse can be curbed. Our discussion is on a little thread, in one little corner of a bigger forum, on a great big internet--but God tells us not to despise the day of small things.

Originally Posted by Ohio

I know you will say, "someone should speak up!" Even such a one as George Muller in his prime, nearly succumbed to the power of Darby and his minions. The gifted and scholarly B.W.Newton in Plymouth had already been overcome by Darby's overwhelming onslaughts. When Darby could not "conquer" Newton in the brothers' meetings, Darby took the battle public, persuading the minds of the congregation. Slowly almost all of Newton's supporters took to Darby's side. Imagine the pressure Muller faced a few yers later. Some in his own congregation were against him.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brothers like JND and TC and BP and WL are powerful men indeed. Their natural talents far outweigh my own. They have great ability to help many and to hurt many. Each of them have done much of both. Hence, some saints love them and some saints hate them. Many saints just can't come to grips with this great paradox. How could they be both good and bad? The facts of history confirm what I say.

My point has always been that they don't need to act this way. This behavior does not show largeness of heart. They were only hurting their own ministry. The Apostle Paul was not a patten to us in this way.

No, I don’t say speak up ... the Bible does . But again, the speaking up needs to be done before abuse takes place. It is preventative. As Christians, we need to learn to speak up before we let someone hit us with a 2x4. Satan has used a wrong understanding and application of “Christian” teachings about mercy, forgiveness, love, gentleness, meekness, turning the other cheek, etc. among believers to create environments where he can cause brother to abuse brother with both in agreement with the process! I have said to someone (a Christian) who was very abusive to me in my extended family, “You want me to be Jesus to you, so you can be the devil to me.” That’s a little blunt but it took me many years to say it. That is why I love the Matthew 18 verses that I so often refer to. In them, Jesus gave us the tools to address abusers who are our brothers and also the way, in good conscience, to remove ourselves from the reach of the abuser if they won’t stop. There is no hierarchy involved in these verses. We are all just brothers addressing family problems.

One of the hardest things for me my last ten years in the LC, was that I had nowhere to turn for help. I read Matthew 18, but my misunderstanding of “tell it to the church” blocked my ability to obey. My Bible said, “Tell it to the elders.” Well, duh, it was them who did it! Door closed. Now I understand "tell it to the church" means exactly that. Tell it to all those believers who know you and also the offending party, who can help the offender hear by also talking to them.

If we are blessed to be with other believers who understand the powerful protection the Lord gave all of us in verses like these, and who understand the fact that we are not to ever, ever, lord it over another human being as if we were God, and that we are not to submit to any kind of hierarchy that can interfere in any way in our personal obedience to Christ and His pure Word, then there is hope that the enemy’s ability to set up an abusive environment can be stopped.

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Terry

Not absolutely. Not all localities expect absolute submission. A big difference is whether one writes against the leadership system. ...The leadership system you were under expected absolute submssion to this obsession. Terry

Terry,

I'm sure there are some exceptions in some localities, depending on who the leaders are; nevertheless, no matter how good the leaders may be, if they have allowed their local church to be included on the big org chart, they are expected to submit completely to the edicts from the top. They cannot say "no" without reprisal. There is no arguing this when you look at what happened in the Midwest. People, families, and whole churches are expendable if they get in the way.

My case was not isolated. What happened to me happened in many other localities to many other people. In recent years I have heard from many people whose submission to the leadership was demanded. I have heard some bizarre stories that make mine pale by comparison.

The leadership structure I was "under" was not separate from that of other LCs. The LC leadership system is a big tree with lots of branches, but it has one common root and it bears abusive fruit.

Thankful