Outer darkness: A thousand years? or for eternity?

awareness · 02-01-2014, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Harold, Harold, you may want to think twice before you use google as your bible teacher. Don't be so lazy. There are tons of good websites that will explain to you what the Jewish concept of the Spirit was back in the day. You may want to even speak to your local Jewish Rabbi, he will probably give you about the same interpretation as the Jews in Jesus' time. So why don't you run along now and do some actual research, and then maybe you can have something to contribute besides trying to be the Devil's advocate

Untohim,

No need to get snotty. I didn't run to google. That's just your projection. I have a Bible program on my computer.

And talk about lazy. You say there are tons of good websites that explain Jewish concept of spirit, but don't present even one.

And I'm not "running along." You are not my mother. Even tho you remind me of her.

The truth is, your statement :

"The people to whom Jesus was speaking to had very little concept of the Holy Spirit...in fact the Holy Spirit was a totally foreign term/concept to most of them."

is ludicrous. These Jews were learned Jews. They studied at Hellenistic schools. Of course they knew the term pneuma. It wasn't foreign to them.

Maybe you should think twice before shooting off from the hip.

You could have at least countered with verses, instead of with ad hominem's :

Joh_7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Act_23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit ...

OBW · 02-02-2014, 05:41 AM

While not directly on topic, I note that this topic is mostly about doctrines and opinions and what each version has to say about the souls of those who believe any particular way.

In that context, I came across the following blog post from an unfamiliar writer that seemed to speak to the kind of "preaching" that is common in many groups, including the LRC, and is raising its head even among us at times in threads like this.

Here is the post in full (with reference) and three or so of the comments it received following. I cannot point at anything or anyone particularly. Just note that it pricked my conscience and thought that it was worthy of passing on.

- - - -

An Untitled Rant (from the blog "Phoenix Preacher")
http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=15996

This morning as I scrolled through my Facebook feed I was confronted with yet another old and dear friend who has pretty much left the faith once delivered to the saints.

She’s gone not because of weighing all the eternal verities and reaching reasoned conclusions about spiritual matters . . . but because the church as she’s known and experienced it are too damn dangerous and deadly to her soul.

We did not protect and defend her from the wolves among us . . . we defended the wolves and demeaned her.

Now, a nicer wolf has taken her in.

She has already been rejected by many former friends, some of whom have contacted me and asked me to call and correct her doctrine . . . as if her doctrine was broken before her heart and spirit were.

That is the lie we tell about people we break and dispose of in the church . . . that they were simply apostates in waiting who are now simply showing their true colors.

That lie enables us to keep believing that “sound doctrine” covers wicked character, that if your words are straight, your walk can be crooked.

It screams the unspoken lie that Jesus died for proper pedagogy and not for people . . . and if people are wounded by the practitioners of proper pedagogy, it’s an acceptable sacrifice.

It denies the reality of how badly we break the hearts spirits of people in favor of protecting power and position.

My Facebook feed is littered with these living sacrifices to ecclesiastical authority and idolatry, some of whom have told me that they have been waiting for me to “unfriend” them for their “heresies”.

I won’t do that because I don’t think Jesus has.

I have been accused of not caring for their souls because of that.

It’s not their souls I’m worried about . . . it’s the guys being fitted for a millstone.

- - - - -

Among the comments are the following:

I can remember my Grandfather, from way back in the fifties saying, “The church has the only army who shoots their wounded”. I was just a kid then, and I had no idea what he meant.
I do now.

My spiritual health is not dependent on “Jesus alone”. He has delegated my care to my fellow church members, my pastor, my close friends . . . the fellowship of the saints. I need them and they need me . . . and whenever one of us suffers we all do.

We shoot the wounded because they are much easier targets than the one who comes to cheat, steal, kill and destroy. And it makes us feel like we are doing something. Sad

UntoHim · 02-02-2014, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

And I'm not "running along." You are not my mother. Even tho you remind me of her.

There ya go Harold, I thought a good theological debate would loosen you up!

I will repeat:
The people to whom Jesus was speaking to had very little concept of the Holy Spirit...in fact the Holy Spirit was a totally foreign term/concept to most of them. So why would Jesus use a metaphor to a people who wouldn't have the faintest idea of what he was speaking of?

Harold, the Jews were never "trinitarians"...not from the beginning, not at Jesus' day and not today. To Jews the Spirit is simply the "breath of God", the power of God as it may rest upon a person and in some cases the thoughts or even the word of God. The Spirit of God was not considered "holy" for only God himself (Jehovah, Yahweh) was holy. You will not find the term "Holy Spirit" in the Old Testament, at least not in the sense the term is used in the New Testament. Anytime you see this term in the Old Testament it is in the sense of "the spirit of his holiness" - a completely different idea/concept than "The Holy Spirit", the third person in the Christian doctrine of the trinity.

Anyway, this is taking us off the beaten path and I've forgotten why this whole matter was brought up... maybe to show how the metaphor of oil used in the parable of the 10 virgins may not necessarily be representative of the Holy Spirit?

Peace!

awareness · 02-02-2014, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

There ya go Harold, I thought a good theological debate would loosen you up!

I will repeat:
The people to whom Jesus was speaking to had very little concept of the Holy Spirit...in fact the Holy Spirit was a totally foreign term/concept to most of them. So why would Jesus use a metaphor to a people who wouldn't have the faintest idea of what he was speaking of?

Harold, the Jews were never "trinitarians"...not from the beginning, not at Jesus' day and not today. To Jews the Spirit is simply the "breath of God", the power of God as it may rest upon a person and in some cases the thoughts or even the word of God. The Spirit of God was not considered "holy" for only God himself (Jehovah, Yahweh) was holy. You will not find the term "Holy Spirit" in the Old Testament, at least not in the sense the term is used in the New Testament. Anytime you see this term in the Old Testament it is in the sense of "the spirit of his holiness" - a completely different idea/concept than "The Holy Spirit", the third person in the Christian doctrine of the trinity.

Anyway, this is taking us off the beaten path and I've forgotten why this whole matter was brought up... maybe to show how the metaphor of oil used in the parable of the 10 virgins may not necessarily be representative of the Holy Spirit?

Peace!

Now that was a worthy and thoughtful response. Thanks.

Yes, peace bro.

And it is true we don't know the oil in the parable of the ten virgins is the Holy Spirit. That's speculation.

When I read this parable I have to ask if Jesus is promoting polygamy.

bearbear · 02-02-2014, 11:06 AM

When I first came to this forum I got pretty frustrated in that epic thread on repentance. That same night when I was reading bible with youth, we randomly chose to read 2 Timothy 2. As I read these words off the page, I felt God was speaking directly to me and convicting me of what I had done hours ago. The chances of us reading this passage were slim and I knew it was an act of God so I was driven to repent. I should do it again here if I have not come across as gentle to some. The verses below remind us not be quarrelsome but be kind to each other, lest we open up a way for Satan to stumble us.

2 Timothy 2
23 Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

Ohio · 02-02-2014, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

When I first came to this forum I got pretty frustrated in that epic thread on repentance. That same night when I was reading bible with youth, we randomly chose to read 2 Timothy 2. As I read these words off the page, I felt God was speaking directly to me and convicting me of what I had done hours ago. The chances of us reading this passage were slim and I knew it was an act of God so I was driven to repent. I should do it again here if I have not come across as gentle to some. The verses below remind us not be quarrelsome but be kind to each other, lest we open up a way for Satan to stumble us.

2 Timothy 2
23 Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

I doubt if these verses were from the Lord, except maybe for v.23.

Otherwise, do I and others oppose the truth for examining the parables of the Lord? Am I part of the devil's trap for speaking of our saving faith? Does the faith I have from God and into God hold me captive by the devil?

Don't you think I also know hundreds of verses which I could launch at others. Concerning the LAW, the book of Romans and Galatians are filled with useful verses. I remember the days of my youth, living in the brothers' house and playing these verse wars, what an awful feeling the Lord gave me.

I have read quite a bit of church history over the years. The saddest part of church history is not the many persecutions by the godless, rather it is that zealous part of His body which always tends to bully that gentler part. Which side do you want to be part of?

bearbear · 02-02-2014, 08:33 PM

Hi Ohio, I think you're reading too much into those verses I posted and I'm sorry for it's negative connotations. I meant for each of us to read it from the first person and not as the recipient. I just wanted to emphasize we should be kind and gentle in our discussions. There's nothing wrong with digging into the word of God, but if we start having a negative attitude and start ripping into one another, that doesn't glorify God. And in saying this I'm also trying to remind myself to be gentle and kind and I'm sorry for crossing this line in this thread.

Regarding the Law, I wouldn't mind you bringing up those verses in the other thread. It would help us to bring our own views into sharper focus.

Elden1971 · 03-24-2014, 06:04 PM

THE WISE AND FOOLISH VIRGINS
HAS it ever occurred to you that as we are waiting for the appearing of the Bridegroom, the ministry should be in keeping with preparation for the meeting? The preparation is to be ready for Him, to be in fact the bride. It is not merely that you are saved, or that you are useful, but that you are in heart prepared to meet the Bridegroom! Personal love alone keeps us in this expectancy; love not only for His service to us, but for His love; then we feel we Cannot be apart from Him.
He draws our hearts to Himself by the way He assures us of His love for us, and that is by the way He seeks our perfection. No one can resist the love that desires to see “no spot in thee”. It is a wonderful thing to be in the sense of that before Him. What is the difference between the wise virgins and the foolish? Apparently they were all alike, they all had lamps, and when the cry came they all trimmed them; the wise took oil in their vessels, the foolish had lamps but no oil. It is remarkable that there should be a profession to go forth to meet the Bridegroom when there was no power of the Spirit of God to sustain them! How did this great lack occur? If they had believed in Christ risen they would have received the Holy Spirit; there cannot be any personal acquaintance with Christ without the Holy Spirit. “This spoke he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive”. We see by this parable that there may be a profession of going forth to meet Him by those who have no conscious link with Christ risen from the dead. Hence when the test came the lamps were going out. If we had a deeper sense of the absence of Christ here, we should rejoice more in the great truth that the other “Comforter” is come; the disciples in Acts had the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit! J B Stoney

02-02-2014, 05:41 AM	#2
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,384	Re: Outer darkness: A thousand years? or for eternity? While not directly on topic, I note that this topic is mostly about doctrines and opinions and what each version has to say about the souls of those who believe any particular way. In that context, I came across the following blog post from an unfamiliar writer that seemed to speak to the kind of "preaching" that is common in many groups, including the LRC, and is raising its head even among us at times in threads like this. Here is the post in full (with reference) and three or so of the comments it received following. I cannot point at anything or anyone particularly. Just note that it pricked my conscience and thought that it was worthy of passing on. - - - - An Untitled Rant (from the blog "Phoenix Preacher") http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=15996 This morning as I scrolled through my Facebook feed I was confronted with yet another old and dear friend who has pretty much left the faith once delivered to the saints. She’s gone not because of weighing all the eternal verities and reaching reasoned conclusions about spiritual matters . . . but because the church as she’s known and experienced it are too damn dangerous and deadly to her soul. We did not protect and defend her from the wolves among us . . . we defended the wolves and demeaned her. Now, a nicer wolf has taken her in. She has already been rejected by many former friends, some of whom have contacted me and asked me to call and correct her doctrine . . . as if her doctrine was broken before her heart and spirit were. That is the lie we tell about people we break and dispose of in the church . . . that they were simply apostates in waiting who are now simply showing their true colors. That lie enables us to keep believing that “sound doctrine” covers wicked character, that if your words are straight, your walk can be crooked. It screams the unspoken lie that Jesus died for proper pedagogy and not for people . . . and if people are wounded by the practitioners of proper pedagogy, it’s an acceptable sacrifice. It denies the reality of how badly we break the hearts spirits of people in favor of protecting power and position. My Facebook feed is littered with these living sacrifices to ecclesiastical authority and idolatry, some of whom have told me that they have been waiting for me to “unfriend” them for their “heresies”. I won’t do that because I don’t think Jesus has. I have been accused of not caring for their souls because of that. It’s not their souls I’m worried about . . . it’s the guys being fitted for a millstone. - - - - - Among the comments are the following: I can remember my Grandfather, from way back in the fifties saying, “The church has the only army who shoots their wounded”. I was just a kid then, and I had no idea what he meant. I do now. My spiritual health is not dependent on “Jesus alone”. He has delegated my care to my fellow church members, my pastor, my close friends . . . the fellowship of the saints. I need them and they need me . . . and whenever one of us suffers we all do. We shoot the wounded because they are much easier targets than the one who comes to cheat, steal, kill and destroy. And it makes us feel like we are doing something. Sad __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

02-02-2014, 11:06 AM	#5
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 765	Re: Outer darkness: A thousand years? or for eternity? When I first came to this forum I got pretty frustrated in that epic thread on repentance. That same night when I was reading bible with youth, we randomly chose to read 2 Timothy 2. As I read these words off the page, I felt God was speaking directly to me and convicting me of what I had done hours ago. The chances of us reading this passage were slim and I knew it was an act of God so I was driven to repent. I should do it again here if I have not come across as gentle to some. The verses below remind us not be quarrelsome but be kind to each other, lest we open up a way for Satan to stumble us. 2 Timothy 2 23 Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

02-02-2014, 08:33 PM	#7
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 765	Re: Outer darkness: A thousand years? or for eternity? Hi Ohio, I think you're reading too much into those verses I posted and I'm sorry for it's negative connotations. I meant for each of us to read it from the first person and not as the recipient. I just wanted to emphasize we should be kind and gentle in our discussions. There's nothing wrong with digging into the word of God, but if we start having a negative attitude and start ripping into one another, that doesn't glorify God. And in saying this I'm also trying to remind myself to be gentle and kind and I'm sorry for crossing this line in this thread. Regarding the Law, I wouldn't mind you bringing up those verses in the other thread. It would help us to bring our own views into sharper focus.

03-24-2014, 06:04 PM	#8
Elden1971 Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Norman Oklaoma Posts: 122	Re: Outer darkness: A thousand years? or for eternity? THE WISE AND FOOLISH VIRGINS HAS it ever occurred to you that as we are waiting for the appearing of the Bridegroom, the ministry should be in keeping with preparation for the meeting? The preparation is to be ready for Him, to be in fact the bride. It is not merely that you are saved, or that you are useful, but that you are in heart prepared to meet the Bridegroom! Personal love alone keeps us in this expectancy; love not only for His service to us, but for His love; then we feel we Cannot be apart from Him. He draws our hearts to Himself by the way He assures us of His love for us, and that is by the way He seeks our perfection. No one can resist the love that desires to see “no spot in thee”. It is a wonderful thing to be in the sense of that before Him. What is the difference between the wise virgins and the foolish? Apparently they were all alike, they all had lamps, and when the cry came they all trimmed them; the wise took oil in their vessels, the foolish had lamps but no oil. It is remarkable that there should be a profession to go forth to meet the Bridegroom when there was no power of the Spirit of God to sustain them! How did this great lack occur? If they had believed in Christ risen they would have received the Holy Spirit; there cannot be any personal acquaintance with Christ without the Holy Spirit. “This spoke he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive”. We see by this parable that there may be a profession of going forth to meet Him by those who have no conscious link with Christ risen from the dead. Hence when the test came the lamps were going out. If we had a deeper sense of the absence of Christ here, we should rejoice more in the great truth that the other “Comforter” is come; the disciples in Acts had the fear of the Lord and the comfort of the Holy Spirit! J B Stoney __________________ Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.