Outer darkness: A thousand years? or for eternity?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

But you did interpret the parable. You chose to see death where it says sleep because in other places death is called sleep. But in other places sleep is just sleep. Ecc. 5:12 The sleep of a laborer is sweet, whether they eat little or much, but as for the rich, their abundance permits them no sleep.

1 Thes 5:7 Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk.


Acts 20:9 ( a clear disctinction) Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead.

Jer 31:26 At this, I woke up and looked around. My sleep had been very sweet.

These are just a few.

Here are some where sleep is, indeed, death:

Ps 13:3 Look on me and answer, LORD my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,

Jn 11:11 and 11:13 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

11:13 They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died.


Just because sleep is death in certain places doesn't mean it always is.

I think something similar was said about leaven here a few weeks ago...and the birds roosting in the mustard tree. Things sometimes mean multiple things. But I suspect you knew that-- having gone through your concordance so thoroughly.

Little sarcastic here?

Obviously we need to interpret the parables of The Lord a little differently from that of a tired Psalmist.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Obviously we need to interpret the parables of The Lord a little differently from that of a tired Psalmist.

And the other references? The ones you ignored? And all the others I didn't mention? As I said, sometimes sleep's just sleep.

Why do you want/need/whatever MORE interpretation than the Lord Himself gave? He explained the parable at the end of it (Matt 25:13). But I've already shown you that. At this point I wonder if you're just not open to anything else.

Can you explain/point to anywhere in the Bible that shows we'll be able to buy oil/Holy Spirit AFTER we die?

At least admit that the Bible doesn't say they (the bridesmaids) died...at least admit you're interpreting or following an interpretation.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

1 And the other references? The ones you ignored? And all the others I didn't mention? As I said, sometimes sleep's just sleep.

2. Why do you want/need/whatever MORE interpretation than the Lord Himself gave? He explained the parable at the end of it (Matt 25:13). But I've already shown you that. At this point I wonder if you're just not open to anything else.

3. Can you explain/point to anywhere in the Bible that shows we'll be able to buy oil/Holy Spirit AFTER we die?

ABinF, I didn't ignore any of your verses. The context of the word "sleep" gives us the meaning whether sleep is sleep, or sleep is death. It is you who ignored what I wrote.

2. It's a parable. Sometimes the Lord provided explanation of parables, as with the parable of the "tares," and sometimes He did not. Either way, a parable requires interpretation, or else it is not a parable.

Yes, the exhortation is to "watch," but many do not. The Lord here provides some description of future events to provide us with further incentive.

3. The Bible is filled with exhortations to "buy oil" in this life, while using other words, though the Laodicians were admonished to "buy salve to anoint." Why don't you explain to me what happens to all God's children who are foolish, who do not watch, who do not grow, who are not faithful, etc.?

The bible is a book for today, the age of faith. It is not a handbook for life after death, and life after the judgment seat of Christ. When that happens, apparently instructions will be given as to how to "buy oil."

ABinF, when you first came to this forum, we went round and round about the need for husbands "to please his wife." (I Cor 7.33) Apparently you don't like the way I read the words of scripture.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ABinF, I didn't ignore any of your verses. The context of the word "sleep" gives us the meaning whether sleep is sleep, or sleep is death. It is you who ignored what I wrote.

2. It's a parable. Sometimes the Lord provided explanation of parables, as with the parable of the "tares," and sometimes He did not. Either way, a parable requires interpretation, or else it is not a parable.

Yes, the exhortation is to "watch," but many do not. The Lord here provides some description of future events to provide us with further incentive.

3. The Bible is filled with exhortations to "buy oil" in this life, while using other words, though the Laodicians were admonished to "buy salve to anoint." Why don't you explain to me what happens to all God's children who are foolish, who do not watch, who do not grow, who are not faithful, etc.?

The bible is a book for today, the age of faith. It is not a handbook for life after death, and life after the judgment seat of Christ. When that happens, apparently instructions will be given as to how to "buy oil."

Well, I can see you're holding onto what you see and that's fine. Again, I am satisfied with Lord's interpretation, with His explaining of the parable. Beyond that is open, too open, to conjecture and leads to things like claiming we'll be able to buy oil after we die. You're comfortable with that. I'm not so comfortable with it. You would think such a big thing like a second chance AFTER DEATH (!) would at least be elaborated on a touch by Paul, Peter, James...someone...

As far as telling you what happens to the unfaithful, you know very well I can't tell you exactly, definitively what will happen to them just as you can't tell me how we'll buy oil AFTER we've died. As YOU said, "The bible is a book for today, the age of faith. It is not a handbook for life after death, and life after the judgment seat of Christ. " And if this is the case (I pretty much agree with you) then why not focus on this life? Why not see an application in THIS life and not after we've died? Why look beyond this life?

The context is right there. It's everything. The disciples want to know when. That's it. And Jesus tells them simply to watch. To be ready. To wait because it will come when they don't expect it, but if they are watching they'll be ready.

Again, I can't tell you exactly, definitively, conclusively what will happen to those who are unfaithful, but it won't be good. Perhaps they'll be shown to have never really believed. Enduring to the end will show what was genuine and what was not.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Well, I can see you're holding onto what you see and that's fine. Again, I am satisfied with Lord's interpretation, with His explaining of the parable. Beyond that is open, too open, to conjecture and leads to things like claiming we'll be able to buy oil after we die. You're comfortable with that. I'm not so comfortable with it. You would think such a big thing like a second chance AFTER DEATH (!) would at least be elaborated on a touch by Paul, Peter, James...someone...

As far as telling you what happens to the unfaithful, you know very well I can't tell you exactly, definitively what will happen to them just as you can't tell me how we'll buy oil AFTER we've died. As YOU said, "The bible is a book for today, the age of faith. It is not a handbook for life after death, and life after the judgment seat of Christ. " And if this is the case (I pretty much agree with you) then why not focus on this life? Why not see an application in THIS life and not after we've died? Why look beyond this life?

The context is right there. It's everything. The disciples want to know when. That's it. And Jesus tells them simply to watch. To be ready. To wait because it will come when they don't expect it, but if they are watching they'll be ready.

Again, I can't tell you exactly, definitively, conclusively what will happen to those who are unfaithful, but it won't be good. Perhaps they'll be shown to have never really believed. Enduring to the end will show what was genuine and what was not.

Shall I take from this that you are convinced there will be only two classes of people after death -- those in heaven, and those in hell?

Shall I also take from this that Jesus tells us many nice stories, but they really don't mean anything, except for the final admonition to "watch."

If the answer to both questions is a simple "yes," then at least be brave enough to admit it.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Shall I take from this that you are convinced there will be only two classes of people after death -- those in heaven, and those in hell?

Shall I also take from this that Jesus tells us many nice stories, but they really don't mean anything, except for the final admonition to "watch."

If the answer to both questions is a simple "yes," then at least be brave enough to admit it. (your response to me) But, one more question, how can an unbeliever be a "virgin," and how can the unbelievers be resurrected at His coming back, and why would an unbeliever go forth to meet the bridegroom, and how can the Lord say He never knew them, when He knows everything and even formed us in the womb, and if they are unbelievers, why didn't the Lord exhort them to repent and believe the gospel.

Yes, I think there are believers and unbelievers. Those who accept Christ as their savior and are obedient/endure to the end and those who don't.
As far as bravery here, I don't think it's a factor. As I explained, I don't know. I can't know. And neither can you. I have ALREADY told you that I am satisfied with Christ's explanation. I don't reduce His words to a children's story. Christ spoke to His disciples in terms they understood. Then He explained the meaning of those things in that context. It's simple, not simplistic. You don't know for sure that the oil is the spirit. You don't know the sleep is death. You don't know that we can buy oil AFTER we die..but you have the courage to say you do.

Why didn't He say to repent? I don't know. Is it possible that they would now have to endure being shut out of the feast. How do you think the virgins would feel being outside? Don't you think they would repent. Perhaps they will have to wait until the feast is over and the marriage celebration is complete. You still haven't addressed the looming question. Where's you courage? It's an ominous one and it's been asked before (an hour or so ago in fact)....Where do you get the idea from scripture that we will be able to buy oil/Holy spirit AFTER WE DIE?

Do you think that there are those who go to a church, who believe there was a guy named Jesus,who believe that God created things but their belief is akin to knowledge. They have never really sought the Lord. They enjoyed the company of the church, the hymns, the idea that heaven was waiting...these are the ones, I think, to whom the Lord will say, "I never knew you." But as YOU say and keep saying, the Lord can't really mean it because He knows everyone. So when He says "I know My sheep, " he's not really saying anything special because, well, he knows everyone. You've reduced Jesus to someone who just plays around with words, saying things He can't really mean. What do you think He means when he says "I don't know you?" or "I haven't known you?"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Yes, I think there are believers and unbelievers. Those who accept Christ as their savior and are obedient/endure to the end and those who don't.

That sounds like more than two here ....
1. believers
2. believers who accept Christ
3. believers who do not accept Christ
4. believers who accept Christ and are obedient
5. believers who accept Christ and endure to the end
6. unbelievers

All these situations (and more) will exist.

Perhaps you would like to give this more thought.

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

As far as bravery here, I don't think it's a factor. As I explained, I don't know. I can't know. And neither can you. I have ALREADY told you that I am satisfied with Christ's explanation. I don't reduce His words to a children's story. Christ spoke to His disciples in terms they understood. Then He explained the meaning of those things in that context. It's simple, not simplistic. You don't know for sure that the oil is the spirit. You don't know the sleep is death. You don't know that we can buy oil AFTER we die..but you have the courage to say you do.

In the parable of the sower (Mt 13.1-23) and the parable of the tares, (Mt 13.24-30, 36-43) the Lord went into great length to explain to the disciples what all the details of these parables meant. But in this parable of the virgins, the Lord did not explain in detail what the parable meant. Do you expect me to believe that the Lord spent much time thinking up good parables in His early ministry, filled with meaningful details, but as His death approached, He ran out of time thinking them through? If that was the case, He should have just said, "don't forget to watch." That would be more "simple."

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Why didn't He say to repent? I don't know. Is it possible that they would now have to endure being shut out of the feast. How do you think the virgins would feel being outside? Don't you think they would repent. Perhaps they will have to wait until the feast is over and the marriage celebration is complete. You still haven't addressed the looming question. Where's you courage? It's an ominous one and it's been asked before (an hour or so ago in fact)....Where do you get the idea from scripture that we will be able to buy oil/Holy spirit AFTER WE DIE?

If the only suffering the foolish virgins have to endure is missing dinner, then how bad can that be? But, didn't you say thy are going to hell?

So, am I the only one who has to answer questions? The Lord Himself said the foolish ones have to "buy oil." Can't you accept that? I told you where I got the idea -- it's in the parable -- but you don't think that parable has any meaning to it, so you happen to miss that detail. Obviously the "oil" means something here. I doubt if Pep Boys has this kind of "oil" on their shelves. Didn't you ever realize that the Lord speaks metaphorically at times?

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Do you think that there are those who go to a church, who believe there was a guy named Jesus, who believe that God created things but their belief is akin to knowledge. They have never really sought the Lord. They enjoyed the company of the church, the hymns, the idea that heaven was waiting...these are the ones, I think, to whom the Lord will say, "I never knew you." But as YOU say and keep saying, the Lord can't really mean it because He knows everyone. So when He says "I know My sheep, " he's not really saying anything special because, well, he knows everyone. You've reduced Jesus to someone who just plays around with words, saying things He can't really mean.

When the Bible exhorts us to believe, it is to "believe into." It is not a mere credence, or an acknowledgement of a fact, like the demons who 'believe." Real faith regenerates us with a living hope. We are born again.

The bible calls those who fake the program as unbelievers. They are tares, and not real wheat.

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

What do you think He means when he says "I don't know you?" or "I haven't known you?"

It means He does not approve of their works, they have not done the will of the Father. The opposite is for Him to say "well done."

Look at the parable of the sower. Consider the seed sown on rocky places. (Mt 13.5-6, 20-21) This one heard the word with joy, the seed sprouted into a new life, but is short-lived, and persecution stumbles this one. Consider the seed sown in the thorns. (Mt 13.7, 22) This one hears the word, and the plant sprouts and grows more, but the thorns of anxiety and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word so that it becomes unfruitful.