How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of the LC

[ABrotherinFaith]

Bring her straight to the Word of God (no footnotes). If she's been in the LC that long she's probably most comfortable with the recovery version, and chances are she's got an older copy of it without the footnotes. Read through Psalms or James slowly, carefully and perhaps with some cross references. Let the Word work on her without any filter. She'll learn how to read (something I think most lcers don't know how to do). This isn't just good for her or someone in the lc, it's good for all believers. And above all, trust God. His word is powerful and better than any footnote.

[bearbear]

Also I think prayer is very important. After I believed it was God's will for us to leave and I prayed to this direction, God gave me the wisdom to help steer my wife away from the LCs gradually. Another thing that contributed was getting in touch with healthy non-LC Christians so that my wife could witness that there is really healthy fruit out there outside of the LCs. In my case this was my aunt.

One compelling reason why God doesn't want people to stay in the LC is simple: He is angry when people steal the glory that belongs to him. When Herod simply failed to give God the glory, he was smited (Acts 12:18-25). Another example is when Hezekiah showed off all the things God gave him to the Babylonians. Despite having been faithful to God all his life, his kingdom was severely judged for his hubris. Some "servants" of God throughout history have unfortunately followed in the same pattern and one would really hate to be in their shoes on the day of judgment.

You can make a strong argument for why Witness Lee and the ministry he left behind has stolen the glory that belongs to God. Many times in an LC meeting you'll hear his name or his ministry glorified and credited more times than even the name of Jesus. I think this is a point that all LCers are aware of and subconsciously know they are guilty of and one can also work in this direction.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

You can make a strong argument for why Witness Lee and the ministry he left behind has stolen the glory that belongs to God. Many times in an LC meeting you'll hear his name or his ministry glorified and credited more times than even the name of Jesus.

One time a brother from the Great Lakes Area actually counted 33 times in one semi-annual training message where "Blended" brother Ed Marks extolled the glorious name and ministry of Witness Lee.

I can go to a Lutheran church and never hear the wonderful name of Luther ... and yet the LC's vociferously proclaim they are not "of Lee," and meanwhile claim all Lutherans are "of Luther."

"And wisdom is vindicated by her children..."

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One time a brother from the Great Lakes Area actually counted 33 times in one semi-annual training message where "Blended" brother Ed Marks extolled the glorious name and ministry of Witness Lee.

I can go to a Lutheran church and never hear the wonderful name of Luther ... and yet the LC's vociferously proclaim they are not "of Lee," and meanwhile claim all Lutherans are "of Luther."

"And wisdom is vindicated by her children..."

Ohio, bearbear, thanks! Another good point. I will ask my wife to start counting.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Bring her straight to the Word of God (no footnotes). If she's been in the LC that long she's probably most comfortable with the recovery version, and chances are she's got an older copy of it without the footnotes. Read through Psalms or James slowly, carefully and perhaps with some cross references. Let the Word work on her without any filter. She'll learn how to read (something I think most lcers don't know how to do). This isn't just good for her or someone in the lc, it's good for all believers. And above all, trust God. His word is powerful and better than any footnote.

ABrotherinFaith, thank you for the piece of good advice!

Could you please share why it must be Psalms and James? If I am not mistaken, I heard WL was not in favor with them or something. Could you explain that to me, please?

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

ABrotherinFaith, thank you for the piece of good advice!

Could you please share why it must be Psalms and James? If I am not mistaken, I heard WL was not in favor with them or something. Could you explain that to me, please?

There's a thread here about Psalms that'll show you why someone in the LC would benefit from reading it without footnotes, and James is in the same boat as far as they're concerned.

As I said in my previous post, a lot of people in the LC haven't learned to read. I mean read for themselves, without anyone telling them what something means. They never have to really think about a verse.

If your wife has been in the LC for 30+ years she's heard how many of the Psalms and much of James has been traduced. She's also probably just taken their word for it without having gone and read for herself. If you were to read it both books together without the footnotes, she'd be forced to consider the books, to let them speak for themselves so to speak. Without footnotes many in the LC are unable to tell you why a verse or pslam or author has been deemed not in line with God's economy. Reading these in context would give them a much broader picture than the picking and choosing, cutting and pasting and chopping that are the content of a lot of the notes and much of the morning revival material. It would make them consider God's word. That's the first step. Ultimately, your pitting whatever you see wrong in the LC doctrine or practice against God's word. Get her (and yourself) intimately familiar with it.

[bearbear]

Hi ABrotherInTheFaith, I just saw this 3 minute video today which is spot on with what you just said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Is8QnxviOI

and everyone in the LC, including myself and those of us who left should see.

[InChristAlone]

ABrotherinFaith, thank you so much! We will start reading them.

[bearbear]

I've also written a recent article compiling my thoughts about why WNee/WLee's outer darkness cannot be for a thousand years, rather it's for eternity as almost all Christians believe it to be, with the concession that not everyone here agrees to my view:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...rnity-and.html

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I've also written a recent article compiling my thoughts about why WNee/WLee's outer darkness cannot be for a thousand years, rather it's for eternity as almost all Christians believe it to be, with the concession that not everyone here agrees to my view:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...rnity-and.html

Thank you, brother Sam.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I've also written a recent article compiling my thoughts about why WNee/WLee's outer darkness cannot be for a thousand years, rather it's for eternity as almost all Christians believe it to be, with the concession that not everyone here agrees to my view:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...rnity-and.html

This was quoted from your blog referenced above ...

The conversation would be as such:

"Congratulations! You've been raptured/resurrected!"
"Ah wait... you've been a bad Christian... Sorry. Have fun in solitary confinement for 1000 years!"
"You look nervous. Relax, you'll have plenty of time to recover from 1000 years of isolation induced mental insanity in the eternal New Jerusalem!"

Is this any way to expound the scriptures? You have made light of the most serious moment we will ever face. Facetious comments like yours here do little to alter the truth.

2 Cor. 5.10 "For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be compensated for the things done in our body, according to what he has done, whether good or worthless."

Can you offer some proof that the "outer darkness" mentioned in Matt 25.30 is eternal, and that it is identical to the white throne judgment and the lake of fire mentioned in Revel. 20.11-15?

[OBW]

BB,

Ohio is right. You have simply told a story and substituted its conclusions as that of scripture. That is something both Nee and Lee did.

There is no clear definition as to what it is that happens to those who have things that are "worthless." Whether it is 1,000 years, or just something directly related to the nature of the worthlessness is not stated. But it is not simply heaven or hell.

Ohio,

In your next post you once again reference the "early Lee" era with the statement "many serious students of the scriptures came this way because Lee's teachings were confirmed by the word of God." But not all of his statements were confirmed.

In any case, who were the serious students of the scripture that came this way? Were they mostly those who rose in the early small localities, some of which are still around today, and some of which left? Those that left are evidence that they eventually saw through something. It might have even been some of the stuff that they thought was so attractive in the early years. For those that stayed, well, you get the idea. Not so sure that their discernment of what is scripturally sound is very good.

And Lee's lynch-pin work was The Economy of God, which was spoken in August through September, 1964. Its very opening is an effort in logical fallacy and rhetorical tricks to make something not said in scripture into this overarching thing that was eventually the reason that so many verses were rewritten or otherwise could not mean what they clearly meant.

In other words, early Lee may not have been the forefront of what was going on, but the errors that would plague the group in years to come were already there. We just couldn't see them because we were told that red was grey and yellow white. In the 60s. (Of course, I wasn't there then. And I don't think you were either, if I recall correctly.)

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

As I said in my previous post, a lot of people in the LC haven't learned to read. I mean read for themselves, without anyone telling them what something means. They never have to really think about a verse.

This is a profound statement.

As I was pointing out in a different context (another thread here) today, when someone says that you are learning something that cannot be seen by anyone else, or they have to rewrite the scripture to make their teachings work, then it is only those who do not read and try to critically understand what the scripture is actually saying that will continue to follow.

Says a lot for those who continue to follow Nee and Lee.

[InChristAlone]

The ways of God are past finding out. A few days ago I thought that the Local Church, in spite of all the quirks and oddities, teaches the word of God, but now I see clearly that it's not a church of God but a cult of Witness Lee. They teach Witness Lee's teachings, not Jesus's teachings. How come I never thought of this? What a delusion. It's like you are dreaming, but you have no idea that it's a dream. It's full of shams, delusions, and glowing signs that it's a dream but you take them real. You can't realize that you are dreaming because you are in there, deep inside. Mr Lee was indeed the true enchanter, whose spell operates upon the heart, the mind and the soul, beyond imagination.

“Be hole, be dust, be dream, be wind,
Be night, be dark, be wish, be mind,
Now slip, now slide, now move unseen,
Above, beneath, betwixt, between.”

It's pity to see how Lee’s teaching poisons every follower. Poor girls and boys become “dead men walking”, but they don’t even realize that.

I mentioned "The Holy Word for Morning Revival" in a thread. One of the latest titles says, "Entering into the Fourth Stage of the Experience of Life to Arrive at a Full-grown Man for the Fulfillment of God's Purpose." I never even thought over its meaning. It was the "high-peak truth," too deep and profound for my understanding. And now I see that "Entering into the Fourth Stage of the Experience of Life to Arrive at a Full-grown Man for the Fulfillment of God's Purpose" does not mean anything. As a brother said, "it's just clanging cymbals". There is no substance in this mantra. Where do we meet this mumbo-jumbo in the Bible? It has nothing to do with the Word of God. It’s not Jesus’s teaching but Lee’s.

“Was blind but now I see...”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

As I said in my previous post, a lot of people in the LC haven't learned to read. I mean read for themselves, without anyone telling them what something means. They never have to really think about a verse.

This comment goes far to support my paradigm of an early-Lee and a later-Lee. In the early days, many serious students of the scriptures came this way because Lee's teachings were confirmed by the word of God. They knew how to read the Bible for themselves.

Nearly all of these gifted brothers are now gone from the movement. Many of them stated plainly that Lee led the Recovery in a direction contrary to the scriptures, and contrary to the founding principles which first caught their attention.