Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

God wants us to receive his free gifts by his definition of "faith" not ours.

True. But that doesn't mean your definition is his, thanks very much anyway.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Igzy

True. But that doesn't mean your definition is his, thanks very much anyway.

I am open to your view. If free grace is the correct view then I am all for it! I can stop worrying about my relatives who called on the Lord twenty to thirty years ago and fell back into their normal lives.

What is your definition of faith? And how do you arrive at it from scriptures?

Would someone who called on the Lord and believed in Jesus once but fell into practicing devil worship and infant sacrifice be saved at the point of death?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I am open to your view. If free grace is the correct view then I am all for it! I can stop worrying about my relatives who called on the Lord twenty to thirty years ago and fell back into their normal lives.


What is your definition of faith? And how do you arrive at it from scriptures?

If you've been born again, and most people who have know it when it happens and the rest figure it out soon afterwards, then you had faith. How could you become born again without faith? So you must have had it. Pretty simple unless you have an over-complicated mind.

Would someone who called on the Lord and believed in Jesus once but fell into practicing devil worship and infant sacrifice be saved at the point of death?

To quote Col. Stonehill from True Grit, "I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world as it is is vexing enough."

Bring me such a person and we can talk about it. I don't know of any myself.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Igzy

If you've been born again, and most people who have know it when it happens and the rest figure it out soon afterwards, then you had faith. How could you become born again without faith? So you must have had it. Pretty simple unless you have an over-complicated mind.

I agree faith is actually gifted to us by God but it comes when we fully surrender to him. I can look at all the miracles God has done in my life and use that as a basis of his perfect integrity to trust him in the future.

At what point do you become born again? Is it by mere credence that Jesus is the son of God and he died for our sins? How do you arrive at this from the scriptures?

To quote Col. Stonehill from True Grit, "I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world as it is is vexing enough."

Bring me such a person and we can talk about it. I don't know of any myself.

http://new.exchristian.net/2011/07/f...-satanist.html

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

At what point do you become born again? Is it by mere credence that Jesus is the son of God and he died for our sins? How do you arrive at this from the scriptures?

I think this is where you got stuck. You don't see real faith as the scripture does. You continually discredit faith as "mere credence," which is probably due to one verse in James which says "even the demons believe."

"Mere credence" is not saving faith. No one here, or in the LC's for that matter, is saying this. Mere credence is closer to the situation of the tares, who outwardly look like real believers, but do not have eternal life within, and thus are not real "wheat."

You remind me of some extreme tongue-speakers. Since they spoke in tongues when they first got saved, they hold every one else up to that same standard. They see tongues in every verse of the bible, which just reinforces their stance.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think this is where you got stuck. You don't see real faith as the scripture does. You continually discredit faith as "mere credence," which is probably due to one verse in James which says "even the demons believe."

"Mere credence" is not saving faith. No one here, or in the LC's for that matter, is saying this. Mere credence is closer to the situation of the tares, who outwardly look like real believers, but do not have eternal life within, and thus are not real "wheat."

You remind me of some extreme tongue-speakers. Since they spoke in tongues when they first got saved, they hold every one else up to that same standard. They see tongues in every verse of the bible, which just reinforces their stance.

Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as the assurance of things hoped for (God performed the ten plagues and parted the red sea, so he should be a trustworthy Guy we can base on assurance in) and the conviction of the unseen things (We have conviction in God's integrity so we don't have to trust in what we see).

Say a person believes Jesus is the son of God and died for his sins and has gone to church all their life by attending Tuesday night prayer meeting, Friday night small group and Lord's Day meetings. One day the beast government prophesied by Daniel has taken over his country and he is forced to renounce his faith or his children will be killed. He renounces his faith due to wanting to preserve the lives of his children and he lives out his life with his family in retirement conforming to the pagan culture that he lives in and dies. He figures that he is saved after all, because eternal life is not something that can be lost due to his earlier "faith". Is such a person going to heaven?

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as the assurance of things hoped for (God performed the ten plagues and parted the red sea, so he should be a trustworthy Guy we can base on assurance in) and the conviction of the unseen things (We have conviction in God's integrity so we don't have to trust in what we see).

Say a person believes Jesus is the son of God and died for his sins and has gone to church all their life by attending Tuesday night prayer meeting, Friday night small group and Lord's Day meetings. One day the beast government prophesied by Daniel has taken over his country and he is forced to renounce his faith or his children will be killed. He renounces his faith due to wanting to preserve the lives of his children and he lives out his life with his family in retirement conforming to the pagan culture that he lives in and dies. He figures that he is saved after all, because eternal life is not something that can be lost due to his earlier "faith". Is such a person going to heaven?

Hi Sam:

How do interpret Matthew 16? Peter confessed with his mouth (essentially)that Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus said that it was upon this revelation of who Christ is - this belief - that He would build his church. Would you contend that, at that point, Peter was "saved"?

If so, how do you reconcile Peter's denial of Jesus 3 times when fearing persecution?

If not, when did Peter get saved?

Thoughts?

Peter

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think this is where you got stuck. You don't see real faith as the scripture does. You continually discredit faith as "mere credence," which is probably due to one verse in James which says "even the demons believe."

BB,

And of course, if it is mere credence, then it is not much. But it does take some credence. It takes some mental acceptance of the facts as presented. That is part of the deal.

Like I mentioned in another post, pointing to creed, or declaration of faith, and declaring it is "mere" is a distractor. It is a misdirect. It is possbily a misrepresentation of the facts. Just because you only know of the statement of belief does not make it unreal. Or the works non-existant. Just not visible to you.

I fear that there is too much desire in some to seek the scirptures for a formula rather than seeking God. You don't have to find a formula to believe in the "creed" of Jesus, and obey what he commanded (or at least keep trying) as you seek Him for your help in achieving.

And expecting that at death you will still not be fully there.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by OBW

BB,

And of course, if it is mere credence, then it is not much. But it does take some credence. It takes some mental acceptance of the facts as presented. That is part of the deal.

Like I mentioned in another post, pointing to creed, or declaration of faith, and declaring it is "mere" is a distractor. It is a misdirect. It is possbily a misrepresentation of the facts. Just because you only know of the statement of belief does not make it unreal. Or the works non-existant. Just not visible to you.

I fear that there is too much desire in some to seek the scirptures for a formula rather than seeking God. You don't have to find a formula to believe in the "creed" of Jesus, and obey what he commanded (or at least keep trying) as you seek Him for your help in achieving.

And expecting that at death you will still not be fully there.

Sorry if I misrepresented your definition of faith. I guess I'm still struggling to understand it. I'm basing it off what I've read and knew back in the LCs.

Jesus said if you do not forgive someone from your heart, the Father cannot forgive you. According to Lordship Salvationists if you die with unforgiveness, you do not receive forgiveness from God. Forgiving is deemed as an act of faith because we perform this act of obedience out of having faith that God's commands are true, just as Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac because he trusted in God's promises. Would a person who said he believed in Jesus and the word of God still go to heaven under your definition of faith, if he couldn't bring himself to forgive because the pain was too great?

The reason I'm citing examples of works and faith is James says there is a saving faith and a dead faith which can be judged by the fruit or the works produced from the faith in question. Hebrews 11 is also a laundry list of works that were done out of saving faith. So I just want to test the waters to see what level of saving faith you need to obtain eternal life under free grace.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I agree faith is actually gifted to us by God but it comes when we fully surrender to him. I can look at all the miracles God has done in my life and use that as a basis of his perfect integrity to trust him in the future.

At what point do you become born again? Is it by mere credence that Jesus is the son of God and he died for our sins? How do you arrive at this from the scriptures?

You become born again when you initially truly believe and the Spirit comes in and makes you alive in Christ. I'm not going to quote the verses because you know what they are.

http://new.exchristian.net/2011/07/f...-satanist.html

I don't know this person or really know anything about him. I don't even know if he is truthfully representing anything.

In general, I try to not comment on whether someone I've never met and know little about is truly a believer or not. In fact, I don't actively try to discern whether someone is saved or not. If someone tells me they believe in Jesus I give them the benefit of the doubt until I get enough evidence to think they really don't.

In general, however, I doubt that anyone who has truly tasted the Spirit could become a Satanist. Though I do believe that a nominal Christian could.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Igzy

You become born again when you initially truly believe and the Spirit comes in and makes you alive in Christ. I'm not going to quote the verses because you know what they are.

I'm not sure of which verses you are referring to but I know that Jesus says in John 14 that he will send the Holy Spirit to us after we love him and keep his commandments ( such as forgiving and loving your enemies, etc.).

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,

Jesus repeats this again in verse 23 and says he and the Father will make his home in our hearts once we love and obey him, presumably via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

What level of love and obedience is required exactly? He did tell us to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and that this was the greatest commandment.

By loving God we also love those who are made in his image.

Jesus said he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Paul says the law is fulfilled by loving our neighbors, perhaps with the love that comes from Christ living in us.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

So this is my understanding of when you become born again, when you surrender your heart to Jesus and in doing so love him with all your heart.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I'm not sure of which verses you are referring to but I know that Jesus says in John 14 that he will send the Holy Spirit to us after we love him and keep his commandments ( such as forgiving and loving your enemies, etc.).

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,

Jesus repeats this again in verse 23 and says he and the Father will make his home in our hearts once we love and obey him, presumably via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

What level of love and obedience is required exactly? He did tell us to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and that this was the greatest commandment.

By loving God we also love those who are made in his image.

Jesus said he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Paul says the law is fulfilled by loving our neighbors, perhaps with the love that comes from Christ living in us.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

So this is my understanding of when you become born again, when you surrender your heart to Jesus and in doing so love him with all your heart.

None of these verses have anything to do with being born again.

bearbear, you read the Bible like someone who is colorblind. You just see black and white. To you, either the verses are about getting eternal salvation or about losing eternal salvation. It's outside of your concept that the Lord could be talking about anything else.