Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by OBW

So how sure are we concerning the actual spiritual condition of everyone around you? Are we really sure that the person that seems to just attend church and go home is really not engaged in the true spiritual living? How do we tell?

Hi OBW, I appreciate your insight and you had a good point about us getting sidetracked.

But to clarify my intentions, I think we should never have a spirit of scrutiny or judgment over the spiritual condition of our brothers and sisters. I do however think scriptures teaches us to be as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves. Why do we need to be wise? It's because savage wolves comes in with sheep's clothing to destroy the sheep. The bible relates these wolves as false teachers and false prophets, so I believe scripture admonishes us in numerous places to beware of these folks and exercise our discernment.

So I believe the bible teaches that the same level of scrutiny that we'd be withholding from our brothers and sisters in Christ should not be withheld from teachers and prophets who are unrepentantly sinning against the flock and teaching things that can lead people astray. These are folks who by exercising spiritual authority over others, have influence on their souls, so they are held to a higher standard in judgment (James 3:1). Jesus practiced scrutinizing teachers when he openly rebuked the scribes and pharisees, but he never spoke a word of condemnation to lay people. Both Paul and Peter gave similar warnings against false teachers. Apostle John went further than that and told us not to even greet such a person! (2 John 1:10)

Jesus also wants to have nothing to do with these people in eternity in Matthew 7, even telling them that they were deceived in thinking they knew him when they didn't. These people are calling him "Lord, Lord", but Jesus called them workers of lawlessness! Implying that they were confessing him as Lord all along with their mouth but not with their actions and therefore deceiving themselves into thinking they had a relationship with Christ when they didn't.

Apostle James tells us that if we just hear the word but not do it, we're deceiving ourselves. For those that do not accept James' teaching (a concept Lee held which I'm baffled by because all scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, correction), the Apostle Paul said the same things in Romans 2:13, it's not the hearers that are justified but the doers.

So Witness Lee by teaching that we just had to be "hearers" who are awaiting the divine dispensing but not "doers" was really encouraging both himself and the saints to live in deception! By this definition he was clearly a false teacher people should avoid not even counting the iniquity he shamelessly and unrepentantly practiced.

Why is this important? A lot of people here including myself felt shame from having been deceived so long and we left the LCs full of mistrust. If we don't learn from our past we're bound to repeat the same mistakes. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

My theory here is that if we learn how to identify false teachers and prophets according to scripture, it will help a lot of us heal because we'll be able to trust again after building up our own discernment in the word and by the Spirit of God.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My theory here is that if we learn how to identify false teachers and prophets according to scripture, it will help a lot of us heal because we'll be able to trust again after building up our own discernment in the word and by the Spirit of God.

Why don't we just learn to be independent critical self thinkers and then false teachers and prophets will have no power over our hearts and minds.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Why don't we just learn to be independent critical self thinkers and then false teachers and prophets will have no power over our hearts and minds.

Took the words out of my mouth.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Why don't we just learn to be independent critical self thinkers and then false teachers and prophets will have no power over our hearts and minds.

It's because as I wrote in another thread that if we rely on our own human wisdom we can become easily deceived by Satan. Satan is the Father of lies, the ancient dragon who's been deceiving people for ages. He's been living for a lot longer than we have and he knows which lies work and which don't. I also have a huge tendency to rely on my own wisdom. It hurts to be deceived. All of us want to stand of some solid foundation to have assurance that we won't be hurt in the future. Unfortunately many of us can fall into the trap of relying on ourselves, when the only firm foundation in this world is Christ.

The only hope we have is to rely on the wisdom which comes from God's word and his spirit. And the word of God teaches us to beware of false teachers in many places. It also provides guidelines for us to discern whether or not someone comes from God or the devil. Many of these are in 1 John and in Jesus' teachings.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

It's because as I wrote in another thread that if we rely on our own human wisdom we can become easily deceived by Satan. Satan is the Father of lies, the ancient dragon who's been deceiving people for ages. He's been living for a lot longer than we have and he knows which lies work and which don't.

The only hope we have is to rely on the wisdom which comes from God's word and his spirit. And the word of God teaches us to beware of false teachers in many places. It also provides guidelines for us to discern whether or not someone comes from God or the devil. Many of these are in 1 John and in Jesus' teachings.

I think what awareness is saying is that our wise discernment needs to be our own, not someone else's. Reading the Bible is not enough to avoid deception. Ultimately one must be able to trust one's own interpretation of what the Bible really means. We should be open to other's ideas, but ultimately we are on the hook for what we decide to do. So our decision must be our own, not something inherited. Certainly this requires prayer and the Holy Spirit. But when push comes to shove the decision about just what is truth is ours to make. No way around that.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think what awareness is saying is that our wise discernment needs to be our own, not someone else's. Reading the Bible is not enough to avoid deception. Ultimately one must be able to trust one's own interpretation of what the Bible really means. We should be open to other's ideas, but ultimately we are on the hook for what we decide to do. So our decision must be our own, not something inherited. Certainly this requires prayer and the Holy Spirit. But when push comes to shove the decision just what is truth is ours to make. No way around that.

My Grandma told me that when she became a new believer, the gospel was spreading so fast that everyone was pretty much a new believer in the church she was meeting in Taipei in 50s. Back then there wasn't as much ministry being passed around and people just had their bibles.

People would read books like Romans or Ephesians and admit they would have no understanding of it. Yet the Holy Spirit still developed in them and my Grandma a hunger to read the word of God regardless of understanding it. They were still "living" on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God like Jesus said we should, despite their lack of "ministry" training.

My Grandma never attended any trainings or FTTAs back then, yet her personal ministry had the power of God no FTTA grad could ever muster (Romans 1:16). Often when she was out preaching the gospel, casting out demons or praying for healing and she wasn't sure what to do, a verse she had read earlier would pop into her mind which she never understood previously and she would instantly have discernment on what to do. Of course after seeing God's word operate in her like this, she would come to know the word of God from experience and not just head knowledge.

God honored her faithfulness in his word by giving her wisdom when she needed it. It wasn't built up by any of her own wisdom, but by the Spirit of God who was guiding her.

But unlike what Witness Lee taught, that's not to say we shouldn't develop our minds when approaching the word of God. I think God had mercy on my Grandma because she was a new believer. We should still come to the full knowledge of the truth, and I agree it's possible to build up our own Godly wisdom by interpreting and digesting the scriptures according to the Spirit of God who gives us understanding and guides us to all truth.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

That's not to say we shouldn't use develop our minds. I think God had mercy on my Grandma because she was a new believer. We should still come to the full knowledge of the truth, and I agree it's possible to build up our own Godly wisdom by interpreting and digesting the scriptures according to the Spirit of God who gives us understanding and guides us to all truth.

I think all kinds of knowledge can be helpful. Wisdom (and humility) also comes with experience, some hard won.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think all kinds of knowledge can be helpful. Wisdom (and humility) also comes with experience, some hard won.

Amen. I'm reminded of scriptures that say all good things come from God (James 1:17). Paul even quoted Greek philosophy in Titus.

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

That said I will still contend that the basis of discernment should still rest on the word of God. We shouldn't be pouring our time into things like Hindu scriptures, unless it's just to understand them for the sake of Gospel.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

It's because as I wrote in another thread that if we rely on our own human wisdom we can become easily deceived by Satan.

I think Satan has a better shot at us if we don't think.

For this reason critical self thinking was more than suppressed in the local church. The hive mentality better allowed Lee to usurp Christ, and replace his headship in our life ... which is a trick of Satan. Satan hates self thinkers. Cuz we have free will we are able to reject him ... just as we're free to reject God.

Bro bearbear, and for this reason I think you should go with as much gusto to think for yourself as you put into pinning everything to the Bible, book chapter, and verse.

[Cal]

By its very operation, decision-making requires we believe we know what we are doing. Whether we think we are God-inspired or not, the last thing we think before we do anything is "I believe I know what I'm doing." Otherwise, we wouldn't do it. No matter how much you pray, read the Bible or sense the Spirit, in the end you have to decide. So a certain amount of developed aptitude and self-confidence is necessary. A person who truly had zero self-confidence could never even make the decision to tie his shoes.

So we shouldn't interpret the Bible, or anything else, in a robot-like fashion. And we should not kid ourselves that we can ever be completely out of the picture. The mantra, "The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it." sounds good until you ask the question "What does the Bible actually say?" We have to decide, which puts us right back in the middle of things.

We have to decide to do whatever we do, even if the decision is to do nothing. The Spirit isn't going to animate us like the well-worn image of a hand animating a glove. It doesn't work that way. And it wouldn't be any fun--for us or God--if it did.

So awareness' point is well-taken. We need to learn how to think.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

I think Satan has a better shot at us if we don't think.

For this reason critical self thinking was more than suppressed in the local church. The hive mentality bettered allowed Lee to usurp Christ, and replace his headship in our life ... which is a trick of Satan. Satan hates self thinkers. Cuz we have free will we are able to reject him ... just as we're free to reject God.

Bro bearbear, and for this reason I think you should go with as much gusto to think for yourself as you put into pinning everything to the Bible, book chapter, and verse.

I think there is some nuance involved in how we balance our own thinking against applying the word of God, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression of promoting one of those extremes. We all know many have abused the word of God for their own means and Satan even uses the word to tempt Jesus. The word has to be "rightly handled" (2 Timothy 2:15) and I think that comes from us reading it in a way which we first humble ourselves and ask the Holy Spirit who guides us to all truth to give us understanding.

I agree that God gave us a mind which we use to think for ourselves. However I believe we should also make sure that our mind is renewed by the word of God, whereby we gradually take on the mind of Christ as we live and meditate on his words. And what I've come to appreciate is that even though God lives in us, we still get to retain our personalities. I think God delights in diversity and that's why he created everyone to be so different. We can adopt the mind of Christ and still retain the qualities that make each one of us unique. The prophets in the OT all had their own individual styles of speech, yet they were still speaking God's word. Witness Lee on the other hand tried pretty hard to stamp out individuality. Looking at the FTTA trainings is like witnessing Star Trek's Borg but for Christians.

As you alluded to, the problem with the LRC was that Witness Lee was preventing us from using these minds that God gifted us and insisting that we adopt his mind instead whereby we'd become Witness Lee clones knowingly or unknowingly. Instead we should be adopting the mind of Christ through taking in the words that were breathed out by God.

Most of the times when I write my responses, verses just keep popping in my head so I can't help but to write them out. I think the word is living and operative. Once you start meditating on God's word, it can't help but to bust out when you need it. That's been my experience at least, it could be different for everyone else with different giftings.

One book I really enjoyed along these lines was "They Thought For Themselves"

http://www.theythoughtforthemselves.com/

It's a compilation of stories of how Jews came to know Jesus as their Messiah once they started reading scriptures and thinking for themselves, rather than adopting the mind of their Rabbis and Jewish religion which taught them they weren't able to understand scripture by themselves. Jews today are instilled with the idea that they needed the Talmud, the life study for the Jews, in order to receive revelation from God to understand his word.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I think there is some nuance involved in how we balance our own thinking against applying the word of God, and I'm sorry if I gave the impression of promoting one of those extremes.

Well we're not a bunch of Hebrews sticking to 613 laws found in the Torah. The gospels have Jesus quoting scripture but I don't think he lived by matching everything to scripture. I'm pretty sure that he was guided by The Father directly ... which is the living word, not the dead letter.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well we're not a bunch of Hebrews sticking to 613 laws found in the Torah. The gospels have Jesus quoting scripture but I don't think he lived by matching everything to scripture. I'm pretty sure that he was guided by The Father directly ... which is the living word, not the dead letter.

Agreed. it's always better to get revelation straight from the Guy who authored the bible, and that's why the Jews were stumbled when Jesus seemed to violate their interpretation of Torah when he violated the Sabbath according to their traditions.

That said Jesus made a bold statement when he said heaven and earth will pass away but my words never will. He also told us the only way we could bear fruit and not be cast into the fire was to remain in him and his words in John 15

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My theory here is that if we learn how to identify false teachers and prophets according to scripture, it will help a lot of us heal because we'll be able to trust again after building up our own discernment in the word and by the Spirit of God.

This is why ideas like MOTA are so destructive, because they force you to take teaching that you would otherwise reject.

For me, simply knowing that no prophet or teacher is right all the time goes a long way toward having the right attitude toward teachers and what they teach. God speaks through teachers. But that doesn't mean every teaching is God's speaking. Therefore no one is up to the mantle of MOTA or anything approaching it. If someone teaches something that your spirit rejects, forget it and don't give it another thought. Certainly don't worry that you've damaged your relationship with some "ministry."