The LCS Factor

[Thankful Jane]

Dear Roger,

I hear where you are coming from somewhat. You seemed to be concerned about current LCers and how this topic fits them or how they would receive it. You view the strength of this discussion as blasting everyone. I personally don’t think that is what is happening here, though I understand your concern.

Clearly the topic of idolatry is not something with which to blast current LCers. I’m in agreement with you on this. Maybe you are concerned about LCers who are coming here and reading this discussion? If so, I would say that is beyond our control. It's their choice to be here.

This is a complex topic and it is made more complicated by our various reactions to it. (We all have feelings about this based on our own situations.) I don't know if this will help anyone or not, but I am trying to be more objective about the topic (trying, I said..). I am looking at it from four sides:

1) the truth – what is idolatry as shown by God in the Bible

2) its application to me – how does it apply to me in the present and how did it apply in the past?

3) its application to the LC system as a whole- what characteristics of the LC system are clearly idolatrous

4) its application to others I care about – how can I use this understanding to help others I love that are in bondage find freedom?

If I tangle these 4 up in my head, it becomes difficult to discuss. For now, I'm spending most of my time looking at 1-3.

I'm trying to keep my feelings about the topic in check! (again I said trying .... )

Thankful Jane

[Hope]

Dear Posters,

Since this is the discussion about Spiritual Abuse and has been filled with many charges, I would like to introduce a few key passages for consideration.

I asked the following question regarding sharing issues that counterbalanced pure spiritual abuse, “By the way does it cut both ways? I have been accused of trying to shut people down. But then, is anyone trying to shut down any positive evidence or positive experience while in the local church at …

A poster replied,

"No, I don't think it cuts both ways on this thread. We reacted to talk about positive things because it is inappropriate on this thread. For example, no matter how good a family is or how many positive things there are about it, when child molestation is discovered, it is not appropriate for family members to want to somehow balance that bad by pointing out the good things about the family.

Child molestation, wow!!!

In parallel thinking, it also would seem that one bad family is enough to label the whole bunch. Therefore should all memory of anything of Christ be obliterated? Could it be that the use of such explosive language as “child molestation” would have the effect of wiping out any testimony that was there? Could it be that contending that four churches with all their elders present was for the purpose of completely discrediting all leadership and all churches in the Texas area?

I have not failed to point out flaws in Witness Lee, the local churches, the Living Stream Ministry and the Blended Brothers. If I continue to write my history, more will be forth coming. But here is a warning from the Old Testament for out consideration. Jerusalem was defeated because of their idolatry and unfaithfulness. Jeremiah prophesied that it would happen but when it did he wept over the city and the people. On the other hand, the nation of Edom gloated and wanted to destroy it to its foundation and eliminate all memory of Jerusalem. God’s judgment of His people is for their restoration not for their utter destruction. Note in the following passage that Babylon went too far in carrying out the Lord’s judgment on Jerusalem.

Psalms 137:7-9, Remember, O LORD, against the sons of Edom the day of Jerusalem, who said, "Raze it, raze it, to its very foundation." O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, how blessed will be the one who repays you with the recompense with which you have repaid us. How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.

Lam 4:21-22, Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, who dwells in the land of Uz; but the cup will come around to you as well, you will become drunk and make yourself naked. The punishment of your iniquity has been completed, O daughter of Zion; He will exile you no longer. But He will punish your iniquity, O daughter of Edom; He will expose your sins!

Ezek 25:12-14, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because Edom has acted against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and has incurred grievous guilt, and avenged themselves upon them," therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "I will also stretch out My hand against Edom and cut off man and beast from it. And I will lay it waste; from Teman even to Dedan they will fall by the sword. "And I will lay My vengeance on Edom by the hand of My people Israel. Therefore, they will act in Edom according to My anger and according to My wrath; thus they will know My vengeance," declares the Lord GOD.

Obad. 10-14, "Because of violence to your brother Jacob,You will be covered with shame, and you will be cut off forever. On the day that you stood aloof, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth,And foreigners entered his gate And cast lots for Jerusalem — You too were as one of them. Do not gloat over your brother's day, the day of his misfortune. And do not rejoice over the sons of Judah In the day of their destruction; Yes, do not boast In the day of their distress. "Do not enter the gate of My people in the day of their disaster. Yes, you, do not gloat over their calamity in the day of their disaster. And do not loot their wealth in the day of their disaster. And do not stand at the fork of the road to cut down their fugitives; and do not imprison their survivors in the day of their distress. “

We all should have some Godly fear. Yes, it does cut both ways.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[SpeakersCorner]

Excellent point and corresponding verses, Hope.


SC

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Hope

A poster replied,

"No, I don't think it cuts both ways on this thread. We reacted to talk about positive things because it is inappropriate on this thread. For example, no matter how good a family is or how many positive things there are about it, when child molestation is discovered, it is not appropriate for family members to want to somehow balance that bad by pointing out the good things about the family.

Child molestation, wow!!!

I disagree with the poster in blue above.

There is nothing wrong with trying to balance a point by injecting something positive.

There is something wrong with trying to avoid a point by injecting something positive.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

...There is something wrong with trying to avoid a point by injecting something positive.

This is the point Jane was trying to make. Please read her whole post (in blue) in context. Injecting something positive on this thread was avoidance and inappropriate.

Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

Injecting something positive on this thread was avoidance and inappropriate.

Positivity doesn't necessarily equal avoidance. Attempting to avoid does. There's a difference.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Positivity doesn't necessarily equal avoidance. Attempting to avoid does. There's a difference.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Mine in blue.

Igzy,

Please read the original post which I have provided the link above. It puts what Jane said in context. The bold in Don's post was added by him, not by Jane. Context is important.
Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

Igzy,

Please read the original post which I have provided the link above. It puts what Jane said in context. The bold in Don's post was added by him, not by Jane. Context is important.
Nell

Nell, I've read it. What is it you want me to realize that you don't think I do?

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Nell

Igzy,

Please read the original post which I have provided the link above. It puts what Jane said in context. The bold in Don's post was added by him, not by Jane. Context is important.
Nell

Hi Nell,

My bad that I failed to point out that I added the bold type to high light the phrases on which I was commenting. I will do better next time.

But other than a failure to acknowledge I was the one marking the bold text, what was the difference? What am I missing?

Also I am curious and waiting for Matt to point out the mistake of using the passages about Edom as a warning against piling on when the Lord is judging His people. Frankly, many times I feel there is too much piling on. We all saw it in the lc done by WL in public meetings. I saw him pile on in private meetings. Some of us witnessed dear saints piled on in our own assembly and in private type fellowships.

Why were John Ingalls and John So among others writhen out of the annals of the LC? They were attacked and others with whom they had fellowshiped were deemed worthy of being razed down to the foundation and any positive testimony or memory erased. I am so sad to say so but sometimes I witness right here a piling on and blanket dismissal toward anyone who does not join in 100% in judging 100% everyone and everything from the LC, LSM past.

I am also in tune with OBW as to the lack of value of broad sweeping generalizations of judgments. Furthermore, I am not seeing any balancing appeals to mercy. It seems that the Lord almost always tempered justice and judgment with mercy. Here are a few verses. (Please do not just write me off as trying to dodge or deflect personal responsibility or accountability.) I believe we are all responsible to judge righteously and to show mercy.

Matt 5:7, Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

James 2:13, For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 3:17-18, But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. NASB


Nell, I appreciate any call to honor proper context. Good Job. Context and correct details should be important to me and I hope they are. This helps me stay accurate and minimize any personal agenda.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Hope

Could it be that the use of such explosive language as “child molestation” would have the effect of wiping out any testimony that was there? Could it be that contending that four churches with all their elders present was for the purpose of completely discrediting all leadership and all churches in the Texas area?

Dear Hope,

Are you suggesting that this was the motivation behind what I wrote?

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

Concerning how this topic applied to me in the past, I asked myself, “Was I ever in idolatry while I was in the LC?” A few years ago, I might have answered, “No,” but after spending more time in the Bible considering what idolatry is and the evidences of it, I now have to say, “Yes. I was an idolater.” Here are the reasons:

1. I was terribly afraid that I would offend God if I left the LC. I was controlled by my loyalty to the vision of the LC and WL’s ministry—a false belief controlled my behavior and bound me there (evidence of idolatry). If I had been serving the Lord alone, His love would have cast out fear and I would have had the freedom to stay or go as I chose.

2. I preferred leavened words over the Word of God (evidence of idolatry). I let Lee’s words govern my whole thought about the Bible. Every where I read I could only see it through his template (the line of life, the line of building, etc.) I had given up reading it to see what it said on its own. I believed I couldn't get anymore from it than what Lee saw. I was dependent on his interpretation. “What did Brother Lee say about this?” Whatever he said I believed, even if the Bible seemed to say differently....(after all sisters could not get revelation.) (Eventually I heard that only the apostle could get revelation, but I had left by then.) I put Lee’s leavened words in a higher place than God’s pure Word. The Bible tells me to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, not leavened words out of the mouth of others. I was not eating unleavened bread, as the Bible tells me to do (the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth).

3. I fully/absolutely submitted to leaders who convinced me they were God’s deputy authorities (evidence of being in an idolatrous system). I didn’t need to ask God because he would say the same thing as the leaders. I believed it was wrong to follow God as an individual. I needed to follow the Body and listen to the members.

4. As for how I spent my time, which shows what I loved first, the LC meetings and service got top priority (evidence of idolatry). My family was sacrificed. My husband’s and children’s needs came after the needs of the church. This was clearly in violation of the Word. I have a vivid memory of thinking one night that the Lord wanted me to stay home with my children and miss the meeting. However, instead of hearing His voice (“the words I speak to you”), I applied one of Lee’s speakings of his leavened teachings about not loving my children more than the church and dismissed this speakng as my “self” and went to the meeting. Both of my children suffered longterm effects of my longterm neglect (sacrificing children is evidence of idolatry).

All of these are clear evidences of my idolatry while in the LC. I am happy to report that after a long period of treatment with some pretty intense rehabilitative therapy by the great physician, I am doing well.

1) I have no more fear and am free to choose to follow the Lord wherever He leads.
2) I love the pure word of the Bible above all else.
3) I only have one Master and His name is Jesus.
4) My children have forgiven me and been able to find healing from the Lord and are walking with him today. I can never make up for the time I stole from them as children, but I’m trying. Concerning the harm done to my children by my idolatry, this was the hardest area. It has required a thorough repentance to them (not just “I’m sorry,” but a complete acknowledgement of my sin against them and turnaround in my behavior).

Idolatry and its resultant bondage is a big deal.

It's a big deal to God: He wants a walk with us as free individuals.

It's a big deal to the devil: It's his M.O. He doesn’t want us to understand how he works secretly among God’s people to snare them and bring them into bondage to him by mixing in his things with the things of God. He will not give up that ground without a fight.

It’s now also a really big deal to me: I have seen in my own life that when idols are smashed, God begins to show Himself mighty to save and set captives free.

I think I may need to put a reminder on my calendar to have a regular complete spiritual checkup with Dr. Jesus, requesting Him to run special diagnostic tests in the idols in my heart department. He’s the great spiritual cardiologist before whose eyes all things are naked and opened. I may not see my heart's diseases, but He does and is able to save me to the uttermost.

Thankful Jane