The Process of God's Full Salvation - CANFIELD

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

As I look over the "God's Full Salvation" pamphlet it strikes me how theoretical it is. Yes, it's lofty. Yes it's all satisfying in its tidy seeming completeness. But, really, all the talk about "life" transforming us and needing "the cross" strike me as abstract substitutes for the real thing.

All Christians know God wants to change us to be like Him. All know that the Holy Spirit does this, and that God uses our obedience to Him in our circumstances to practically bring this about. I am so thankful that I'm in a church that keeps it real. We don't use the terms "transformation" or "the cross," but I guarantee you people are being changed into His likeness. They are doing it by having a relationship with God and being obedient, not by talking about "life" and "transformation" and "the cross" as if they are shibboleths of the kingdom.

The LC still thinks it is on to some special revelation that nobody else has. Really what they have is a set of terms that few use. But I'm afraid transformation (aka change) and the cross (aka obedience) are a lot more widespread than they know. Lofty catchwords are not required. Getting real is.

Great points. How much we need this today.

We have been reading thru the gospels hanging out at the local Panera's. People stop by all the time and say odd things like, "who's the pastor here? where do you go to church? what version do you read?" But last night one unassuming brother stopped by and said "hi, I saw the Bibles out, what are you reading?" I try to mix it up saying something off the wall, "there's some crazy stories in this book, like this one about some lad afflicted with a dumb spirit, and then Jesus came along."

He knew the story, he knew the point, and what he said was real. "Jesus said, if you can." That's right, "if you can." It was like the Lord had spoken this to us too.

Later on, after that brief exchange, my sluggish memory came to life. "I know who that guy was." I couldn't remember his name, but I remembered praying for him and why he moved to town. Then it all slowly came to me ... but it's not necessary to discuss that information here ... just an unassuming brother at the coffeeshop who has experienced the reality of faith.

Igzy's point is well taken. It's so easy for God's children to masquerade behind special verbiage, spouting (or shouting) shibboleths to impress others. Jesus, however, used simple words with eternal significance. "If you can." What's real is faith, and what's needed the most today is faith, not long-winded spiritual-sounding words designed only to impress others.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's so easy for God's children to masquerade behind special verbiage, spouting (or shouting) shibboleths to impress others. Jesus, however, used simple words with eternal significance. "If you can." What's real is faith, and what's needed the most today is faith, not long-winded spiritual-sounding words designed only to impress others.

Amen, Ohio. I've often thought about how faith was hardly emphasized in the LC. It bothered me when I was there and really bothered me years later. But it took experience for me to see why.

Lee, in his usual way, attempted to redefine faith to fit his process model, calling it a "sense" by which we "substantiate" spiritual things (based on a faulty interpretation of Hebrews 11:1). But other than that we barely talked about faith in the LC. Why? Because we didn't need it! We knew! We knew God's eternal purpose. We knew God's economy. We knew how to touch our spirit. We knew the process of God's full salvation. Who needs faith when you know everything?

Turns out we did. Turns out walking by faith is what it is all about. Not because faith is the "sense" by which we "substantiate" reality. But because God honors those who trust in him. It's simple. It's relational. It's real.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Amen, Ohio. I've often thought about how faith was hardly emphasized in the LC. It bothered me when I was there and really bothered me years later. But it took experience for me to see why.

Lee, in his usual way, attempted to redefine faith to fit his process model, calling it a "sense" by which we "substantiate" spiritual things (based on a faulty interpretation of Hebrews 11:1). But other than that we barely talked about faith in the LC. Why? Because we didn't need it! We knew! We knew God's eternal purpose. We knew God's economy. We knew how to touch our spirit. We knew the process of God's full salvation. Who needs faith when you know everything?

Turns out we did. Turns out walking by faith is what it is all about. Not because faith is the "sense" by which we "substantiate" reality. But because God honors those who trust in him. It's simple. It's relational. It's real.

We had endless teachings on faith, i.e. whether we have the faith of Christ or the faith in Christ, yet when the time came for a brother to walk by faith following the Great Shepherd, he was quickly ushered back to the safety of the fold. How dare he do his own work contrary to the one work of God headed up and initiated by LS.

..............................

Igzy, can you say more about the misunderstanding of faith as a sense, substantiating the real and invisible things of God?