The LCS Factor

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Matt, Jane,
I've made my case against the claim of evil spirits influencing the recovery from the outset so no need to continue repeating them.

Actually, you haven't made a case. You've made some statements, but you haven't explained your logic behind them. I'll still wondering why you have a problem with the idea of demonic influence. Don't demons follow Satan?

As far as I can tell you still have some blinders on. I'm wondering how on the one hand you have little problem believing Satan's nature indwells people, yet are scandalized by the thought that those Satan-filled folks might be influenced by demons as well. That seems pretty inconsistent to me.

It seems you differentiate between Satan's influence and demons' influence. Is that your point? If errors like the "one publication" don't come from Satan, where do they come from?

Igzy

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Actually, you haven't made a case. You've made some statements, but you haven't explained your logic behind them. I'll still wondering why you have a problem with the idea of demonic influence. Don't demons follow Satan?

As far as I can tell you still have some blinders on. I'm wondering how on the one hand you have little problem believing Satan's nature indwells people, yet are scandalized by the thought that those Satan-filled folks might be influenced by demons as well. That seems pretty inconsistent to me.

It seems you differentiate between Satan's influence and demons' influence. Is that your point? If errors like the "one publication" don't come from Satan, where do they come from?

Igzy

Good point.

Methinks the reaction here is way overboard for what has been said. As believers we are not to be ignorant of the enemies devices. What is wrong with discussing what the Bible tells us about the devil and how he afflicts us. I'm not seeing that in every verse, but I see it in some.

The topic of this thread is spiritual abuse.

So I ask you, just who carries out spiritual abuse? It isn't God. It isn't us when we are walking with God. So who is it? Is it just mean old people all by themselves? I'm fine with going there, but it seems a little more soberminded to say that it is men who have been deceived by the devil to carry out acts of spiritual abuse all the while believing they are serving God.

I think there is a verse that says that there are those who will kill people and think they are serving God. (John 16:2)

We really don't have to be afraid of hearing about the wiles of the devil. If it gets too scary for people, then they can just go to another thread. Right? There are a lot more threads on this forum.

Thankful Jane

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Actually, you haven't made a case. You've made some statements, but you haven't explained your logic behind them. I'll still wondering why you have a problem with the idea of demonic influence. Don't demons follow Satan?

As far as I can tell you still have some blinders on. I'm wondering how on the one hand you have little problem believing Satan's nature indwells people, yet are scandalized by the thought that those Satan-filled folks might be influenced by demons as well. That seems pretty inconsistent to me.

It seems you differentiate between Satan's influence and demons' influence. Is that your point? If errors like the "one publication" don't come from Satan, where do they come from?

Igzy

Igzy,

On the first point (I haven't really made an argument) you're probably right. I will sum up what I was fumbling to say: Saying the LC is idolatrous and that every member was engaged in idolatry is way over the top. Saying there are idols is fair ... but then, you can make this claim for all Christians, all groups.

As for my having blinders on, again, I agree. I've got a lot of them on. I yearn to be rid of all of them but it takes time, my friend, it takes time.

I really am done with this one for now. When I get into these heated skirmishes, a lot of things happen. One, I usually overstate something or the other. Two, I offend someone. Three, I learn something. Four, I get ticked off. Five, I get over it. Six, I get a PM from someone which is always nice. Seven, I repent. Eight, I ask myself, why am I spending so much time here? Nine, I vow to back off. Ten, I read a fresh post and break my vow. Eleven, I make a new vow and go public with it to help me keep it. Twelve, I discover I've neglected something in my "real life" (like turning off the hose) and run to do it.

There's about seventeen more things I could list, but I've lost you all by now so why bother?


SC

[SpeakersCorner]

Igzy,

One more thing (see what I mean in my above vows?).

It occurred to me that what I see going on in this line of thought (idolatry, demons, etc.) is similar to the arguments we used to make in the LC about Christmas and Halloween. Yes, these holidays definitely have a mixture of Christian and pagan practices. But, 1) I have a hard time accusing a family sitting around the Christmas tree opening presents of being idol-worshipers and 2) as Ohio is pointing out, even if true, what value is it to ruin their tradition by pointing it out?

There. I really am done with this one.


SC

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Igzy,

One more thing (see what I mean in my above vows?).

It occurred to me that what I see going on in this line of thought (idolatry, demons, etc.) is similar to the arguments we used to make in the LC about Christmas and Halloween. Yes, these holidays definitely have a mixture of Christian and pagan practices. But, 1) I have a hard time accusing a family sitting around the Christmas tree opening presents of being idol-worshipers and 2) as Ohio is pointing out, even if true, what value is it to ruin their tradition by pointing it out?

There. I really am done with this one. SC

SC, are you suggesting that we do random "tree-checks" this December for all those who are screaming idolatry? Is that really spelled "I doll a tree?"

It's been a long time since I used my Jeremiah 10 sword. I'll have to dust it off and sharpen it up for some "serious winter sport." Do I get points for slaying my own family members before I move on to other posters?

Well folks ... are we serious about idolatry or not? Who is on the Lord's side? Who will serve the king? Who will slay his brother? Others, death to bring?

Did I get this song right? Matt, get your sword ready!

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

SC, are you suggesting that we do random "tree-checks" this December for all those who are screaming idolatry? Is that really spelled "I doll a tree?"

It's been a long time since I used my Jeremiah 10 sword. I'll have to dust it off and sharpen it up for some "serious winter sport." Do I get points for slaying my own family members before I move on to other posters?

Well folks ... are we serious about idolatry or not? Who is on the Lord's side? Who will serve the king? Who will slay his brother? Others, death to bring?

Did I get this song right? Matt, get your sword ready!

What is your point, Ohio? I don't get it. Are you whining? Can you put some more substance on this so that it is intelligible? It seems you are obviously reacting to the substance of this thread. Nobody is asking you to do anything. If you think there is screaming going on here, then there must be some crying and pouting to. Sorry, but I'm getting tired of the mean little comments by you. I'm addressing something difficult, substantive and very important to God. No one is asking you to do anything. Maybe you have a tendency to take what other people say and act out on it (like almost tearing down an idol at another building), but surely no one is asking you to do anything. This is in your own mind.

If you have the strong need to continue to speak out like you are, then go ahead but please understand that as long as you are not presenting a reasoned argument it is probably just encouraging me to continue. Why? Because, I know that I am striking a chord on this. It may be tough to hear, which it has been for me when I look at it in relation to my own life, but I guarantee you it has been helpful to me. It's helped me understand that I need to pay real close attention to the Lord and His instruction for the sake of my family.

Matt

P.S. I do think I said something about the need to repent for idolatry, but only in the case that it applies to you. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt

What is your point, Ohio? I don't get it. Are you whining? Can you put some more substance on this so that it is intelligible? It seems you are obviously reacting to the substance of this thread. Nobody is asking you to do anything. If you think there is screaming going on here, then there must be some crying and pouting to. Sorry, but I'm getting tired of the mean little comments by you. I'm addressing something difficult, substantive and very important to God. No one is asking you to do anything. Maybe you have a tendency to take what other people say and act out on it (like almost tearing down an idol at another building), but surely no one is asking you to do anything. This is in your own mind.

If you have the strong need to continue to speak out like you are, then go ahead but please understand that as long as you are not presenting a reasoned argument it is probably just encouraging me to continue. Why? Because, I know that I am striking a chord on this. It may be tough to hear, which it has been for me when I look at it in relation to my own life, but I guarantee you it has been helpful to me. It's helped me understand that I need to pay real close attention to the Lord and His instruction for the sake of my family.

The point is simple. If you go hunting for idols and demons in every home of every saint who ever loved a message by WL in the LC, then you better have a home and a heart that is "squeaky clean," and passing regular inspections.

Whining, no. I was just reminiscing about "the old days" when I too was convinced that God was into "idol-smashing" rather than into saving people. I was only hoping that my mistakes would help you. Sorry, if my points are too brief, lacking "substance."

The "chord" you are striking is the "ding" from my sword. It's sharpened. Do you still want to use it? You mentioned the first idols in Exodus. Is it time for us all to become like Levi and slay his idol-worshiping brothers with the sword? I don't think so.

I'm not the only voice here that has been pleading with you to drop your current course of action. You are not my enemy. I'm just afraid for all the others you may "kill." You came to this forum with an unrecognizable passion that frankly has scared me. I realize that I may take a few hits, but that's OK, if I can protect others.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

...I'm not the only voice here that has been pleading with you to drop your current course of action. You are not my enemy. I'm just afraid for all the others you may "kill." You came to this forum with an unrecognizable passion that frankly has scared me. I realize that I may take a few hits, but that's OK, if I can protect others.

Ohio,

We haven't arrived at the truth of this matter. The truth doesn't "kill" and we don't need protection from the truth. This is no different from the program we all followed before: men presuming they knew what we needed and taking steps to "protect" us according to their own thought.

We have a protector in Jesus Christ the righteous. He is able.

Nell

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The point is simple. If you go hunting for idols and demons in every home of every saint who ever loved a message by WL in the LC, then you better have a home and a heart that is "squeaky clean," and passing regular inspections.

Whining, no. I was just reminiscing about "the old days" when I too was convinced that God was into "idol-smashing" rather than into saving people. I was only hoping that my mistakes would help you. Sorry, if my points are too brief, lacking "substance."

The "chord" you are striking is the "ding" from my sword. It's sharpened. Do you still want to use it? You mentioned the first idols in Exodus. Is it time for us all to become like Levi and slay his idol-worshiping brothers with the sword? I don't think so.

I'm not the only voice here that has been pleading with you to drop your current course of action. You are not my enemy. I'm just afraid for all the others you may "kill." You came to this forum with an unrecognizable passion that frankly has scared me. I realize that I may take a few hits, but that's OK, if I can protect others.

Hi Ohio,

Good morning.

I can see how you think that this line of discussion is going to kill or hurt people, but isn't that a little far-fetched? We're just talking about these topics. Discussion never killed anybody (except in the LC ). Out here in the real world, there really is no need to protect others from hearing or participating in a discussion.

It isn't right for anyone to try to dictate or derail or side track a discussion just because they feel it will hurt others or because they do not like the topic for some reason. That has been going on for a day or so now. (To be clear, I'm not talking about the demons topic that got blown up to be more than it was ever intended to be. I'm talking about the discussion about idolatry. However either topic is valid for discussion.)

We don't have to worry about what people reading it will think. It's their right to think whatever they want to think, including rejecting everything they read.

If you want to end this discussion and prevent the bad impact you fear, then the easiest way is to do so with biblical refutation of the things being said. It isn't good for either you or Matt to make comments about each other's persons or manners such as "I've never seen this side of you" or "there must be some crying and pouting, too" or using adjectives like "scary" and "whining." Why can't we just stick to the topic and put the swords to it, not each other?

Part of the problem with the whole LC dynamic was the inability to have discussions. They got labeled as "negative" "rebellious" "not profitable" etc. We are free to discuss or not. We shouldn't be found in a position of preventing other's discussion.

The truth is let each man decide in his own mind. This implies let each man hear the arguments.

Thankful Jane

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Igzy,

On the first point (I haven't really made an argument) you're probably right. I will sum up what I was fumbling to say: Saying the LC is idolatrous and that every member was engaged in idolatry is way over the top. Saying there are idols is fair ... but then, you can make this claim for all Christians, all groups.

As for my having blinders on, again, I agree. I've got a lot of them on. I yearn to be rid of all of them but it takes time, my friend, it takes time.

I really am done with this one for now. When I get into these heated skirmishes, a lot of things happen. One, I usually overstate something or the other. Two, I offend someone. Three, I learn something. Four, I get ticked off. Five, I get over it. Six, I get a PM from someone which is always nice. Seven, I repent. Eight, I ask myself, why am I spending so much time here? Nine, I vow to back off. Ten, I read a fresh post and break my vow. Eleven, I make a new vow and go public with it to help me keep it. Twelve, I discover I've neglected something in my "real life" (like turning off the hose) and run to do it.

There's about seventeen more things I could list, but I've lost you all by now so why bother?


SC

No, actually this is the most understandable post you've made in awhile. So there is hope.

I see both sides of this argument. I can see how the continuous claims of idolatry and demon influence could become tiresome. I think there are more sophisticated ways of addressing the problems in the LC than that. I have Catholic friends and I wouldn't get to first base with them if I accused them of idolatry, even though that's what praying to Mary is, as far as I'm concerned.

I also see how the infamous letter pledging allegiance to Lee and to the republic for which he stands as a first step to setting up an idol. I think if you ran into a group which venerated, say, Billy Graham, like the LC venerates Lee, it would make you uncomfortable.

Anyway, the other night, NBC Olympic host Bob Costas asked his partner Chris Collingsworth whether woman's beach volleyball would be as popular if the players were required to wear sweatsuits. Collingsworth assented that it probably wouldn't be. In other words, Costas had a point.

Matt has a point, too, as do you.

[Matt Anderson]

I think almost everyone would agree that the 10 Commandments are really, really important.

I'd like to understand why there are a number of posters on this forum who feel that it is not beneficial or productive to look at the very real possibility of violation of this very important subject.

I'm taking God's side on this one.

He started with the most important thing:
1. I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Then He goes to the second most important thing:
2. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (4) Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me, (6) and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

So please explain to me in a 1st grader kind of way why it is we shouldn't look at this real closely in the terms God uses (idolatry)???

And as for the subject of this thread, please see the bolded section of what God says.

So, with all of the complaining going on right now, please see if you can make a reasoned argument as to why we shouldn't give this close attention and look at it very closely with scrutiny.

If you think I am being rough, I'm sorry. How do you think God feels when all of those who He gave His own Son to redeem out of the world forsake Him? Do we think He is happy with us?

We know He is a loving and merciful God. We know he will always accept our repentance, but He does expect us to learn and agree with Him.

With that said, I'll go into a 24 hour pause.

Matt

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Matt

I'd like to understand why there are a number of posters on this forum who feel that it is not beneficial or productive to look at the very real possibility of violation of this very important subject.

I think everyone agrees that idolatry is wrong. I think what people disagree on is what constitutes idolatry.

For example, Witness Lee claimed in the 1st Corinthians training that idolatry was "to eat, drink and rise up and play," thus pouring cold water on picnics and Frisbees everywhere. Are picnics and Frisbees idols? Ridiculous.

So the real question is not whether idolatry is wrong, but rather what is idolatry? That's where you have to make your case.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think what people disagree on is what constitutes idolatry....so ... what is idolatry? That's where you have to make your case.

So, just how does the Bible define idolatry?

The first 2 commandments seem to be a likely starting place. In brief:

. I am the Lord your God. Do not serve other gods before Me.

. Don't make any graven image or likeness of anything.... don't bow down and worship them.

Questions/Thoughts:

1. In commandment #1, what is God referring to when he says "other gods?" Whatever they are, they can be served.

2. What is an actual idol? In the O.T. people literally made physical objects and bowed down to them. Ezekiel also refers to "idols in the heart." What is an idol in the heart?

I am not aware of a checklist of things in the Bible that are idols, so it seems we can't go there. The fact that an idol can be set up in the heart, shows it isn't always a visible thing.

According to Paul, we are to learn something from the idolatry in the O. T. So, just what is that?

In simple terms, it seems that an idol is something we love and therefore serve, more than we love and serve God. Romans says "whoever you yield yourselves, servants to obey, his servants you are."

I agree that only God and I know if I love something more than Him, that is, unless I publicly proclaim I love something else and that I will serve that with all my heart. Then others can also know.

Any one else have any thoughts?

Thankful Jane

[Cal]

"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry." (Col 3:5)

I'm not sure that Paul he is saying all these are idolatry, or only greed. But certainly we can surmise that greed is idolatry. Why is it idolatry? Probably because greed means you want something so bad that you will compromise God's principles to get it, meaning it possesses you, i.e. you worship it.

So idolatry encompasses having a desire so strong for something that you are willing to compromise God's principles to get it.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

SP I agree with your point that it is counterproductive to hammer people over the head with the Bible or any other instrument. An ex Catholic friend of mind was gently weaned off of Mary and ultimately knew how to put her in her proper place based on Scripture and not Tradition. It took time but the lack of condemnation and love displayed to him by the home group he was a part of was instructive.

I think the terms cult, idolatry, etc have to be qualified. In the LCS context I would suggest that for some there is a cult of personality where Lee was idolized resulting in a form of hero worship. How to gently convey this to actual members of the LCS and lovingly nudge them towards a healthier perspective is a question that is worth exploring. Obviously a public forum fiercely debating the issue will not necessarily be effective to this end.