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Spiritual Abuse Titles Spiritual abuse is the mistreatment of a person who is in need of help, support or greater spiritual empowerment, with the result of weakening, undermining or decreasing that person's spiritual empowerment.

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Old 08-22-2008, 06:26 AM   #1
OBW
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I've heard many people say that they thought Witness Lee was repentant during the early years he was in the US (early 60's) about what had happened in Taiwan. As a result they claim that he was in a more blessed condition and even though he got off track later on, he was doing okay at that time.

If Lee was still up to his same ole' tricks during that window of time and there was no time in which 'fruits of repentance' were there would it make any difference in your mind?

What exactly would you consider to be 'concise evidence' of demonic influence for Lee? Give a hypothetical example.

Matt
To All,

While I think that pursuing this in terms of "demons" is a waste of time, the underlying question as to whether Lee was ever anything more than soft-peddling during the 60s and early 70s has always been a significant issue for me.

So acting in an evil manner has now been promoted to all-out demon possession?

Even if you can make a case, we have moved far from the topic, which was describing how the LC was responsible for the failings of their children.

The examples of demonic influence in the scripture, OT and NT, were much more than just doing badly. The whole of the Jewish rituals, especially those of the Pharisees, was corrupted from what God had ordained. Surely that was influenced by Satan.

Nell has said, “Do you think Satan himself, as God's sworn archenemy does his work himself, or do you think he has worker bees (demons) to do his work for him?” On one hand, I agree. But when Satan throws his fiery darts at us and we respond to act according to them, we do not suggest that we have become Satan possessed. Demons effectively do the same thing. I am not denying actual demon possession. But it is not the norm. People follow the suggestions too easily for Satan or his demons to need to actually possess us very often.

Even when Jesus addressed Peter by saying "get thee behind me Satan" he did not put his hands on Peter and command that a demon come out.

I must protest that this has become everything we have cursed the LC for in terms of their constant mantras of "poor pitiful Christianity, Whore of Babylon Catholicism, demonic Judaism." We should now tie weights on them and throw them in the water. If they float, they are witches. If not, they are not guilty — but dead.

If we continue this folly, it will be without me in any part of this forum. I must say that this is becoming a dark alley that even I am beginning to fear. My desire is to help people see the error in the LC doctrines and teachings, to help people deal with the pains of their sufferings, and to help some extricate themselves from that system of errors.

I really questioned SC months ago when he slipped away from the BARM for a period. I may not have agreed with his position, but he had a point of order that even I would not accept at the time. This line of reasoning, although very different in character, is worse that what he was dealing with at the time. I have indirectly been accused of being in denial because I think this is terribly off-topic and much ado about nothing. I do not think that idolatry is meaningless or not a possible issue. But our discussion here is nothing more than a bunch of Pharisees pointing at the rest of the scum of society and pounding on our chests.

And the first harsh word back is proof of my point. I doubt that the people who should hear this are really listening. I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but I honestly believe that if you merely take offense instead of listening and considering, then you missed the point.
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:37 AM   #2
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OBW,

Who ever said 'demon-possession'? You. That's it. Your introduction of this is your bad in the process of dialogue. No one else.

To be honest, I don't care whether you call out the demonic activity or not. We can focus on the specifics and the deeds and connect it to the underlying sins. Where there is sin, there is probably Satan's influence. So, if you can accept that then good enough. If you can't accept that then we have a real problem.

Let's be clear. It was Hope that started this line of reasoning at the beginning of the thread if you want to be factual about the introduction of influences from the dark side. He said, "remember there is an enemy". You didn't object to that.

He did this to deflect attention from some aspects of individual responsibility for sin. I started pushing on this fact by drawing out the issue of idolatry. Idolatry is a sin. It is a deed that each one of us can commit and must take responsibility for it when we do. If we take care of our sin, then God will protect us from the Enemy.

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Old 08-22-2008, 06:40 AM   #3
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On one hand, I agree. But when Satan throws his fiery darts at us and we respond to act according to them, we do not suggest that we have become Satan possessed.
OBW, you are introducing an idea that has not been represented here. This is not a discussion about demon possession. I think the introduction of this into your argument is what you call a straw-man.

I am more than willing to drop the term demon or evil spirit and just say devil. I'm not into demonology or casting out demons, etc. That doesn't mean I'm ignorant of the enemy behind the scenes. These terms that SC jumped on were mainly introduced in the quotes I put out by Jessie Penn Lewis. The point of the quotes was not to define or focus on demons or evil spirits but to talk about deception.

The only reason to mention the devil behind the scenes is to keep the whole problem in perspective. The real problem is that behind idolatry is the devil. Witness Lee even told us this. Maybe someone knows where that is.

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Old 08-22-2008, 06:47 AM   #4
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MikeH,

Good balancing word.


SC
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Old 08-22-2008, 06:59 AM   #5
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I would again advocate that we attempt to keep this little corner of cyberspace as holy as possible.

I've never had much confidence about the long-term prospects, but, saints, seriously, can we at least just try to come back to the reality of Christ?

If localchurchdiscussions is now become the place to denounce all things Lee and Local Church as idolatrous and demonic, as opposed to merely heretical and cultic, I'm already packing my bags....
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