The Psalms are the word of Christ

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

All of WL's pray-reading, and all of his calling, didn't keep him from treating these scriptures in a light and superficial way at best, and from bulldozing them away at worst.

We should be wary lest our ecstatic experiences lead us away from reliance upon the Word. We may begin to trust our "feelings", our "sensual responses", more than the words of Scripture themselves. And if the mental constructs which are built upon these sensations are challenged, we may be tempted to dismiss the very Word itself.

Hi Aron,
I was not in the LC when Lee began to trash the Psalms. From skimming through this thread, that is my perception of what Lee did. Why more people didn't just walk out of the LC when he did this, proves to me people preferred to "amen" him than amen the Word of God.

That said, I do not understand anything about this post. I have read the Psalms several times. I love the Psalms. They draw me so close to the Lord. They are so comforting. Don't they comfort you?

If you don't mind can you explain your comments?

[countmeworthy]

I read posts 269 - latest. The one difference between the tongu e speaking people I know is some of them feel / believe they get revelation from God. About what? They don't say! They also believe it edifys oneself...cause that what the Bible says.

They also believe Satan cannot understand the prayer language of tongues.

And regarding "enemies" being killed in the OT...including children....often times those enemies are demons. For example in Daniel 7 (I think), he prayed for 21 days. When Gabriel finally shows up, he tells him the Prince of Persia tried to stop him and he had to recruit Michael to help him.

This Prince was not human. Remember we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against the PRINCapalities and powers of the AIR, the rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places. The prince of Persia (Iran) was one of those principalities of the air.

Remember also that in Genesis 6 fallen angels married pagan women and their offspring were hybrids..nephelim or giants, which is the real reason God desired to destroy the earth. Giants some how continued to roam after the flood because the 10 spies saw themselves as grasshoppers and Goliath and his brothers were giants. They were "bad seed".

Blessings,

Carol G

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

If you don't mind can you explain your comments?

Of course; let me try to recap my argument on this thread.

Paul twice (Eph. 5 & Col. 3) encourages the saints to sing the Psalms, likening them to "being filled richly with the word of Christ" and also "being filled in Spirit". (Of course, Paul didn't say exclusively to sing the Psalms, but I never said that, either.)

The fact that Paul repeats his encouragement in separate epistles is significant. Two is the number of witness. Once might be an anomaly; twice signals a trend, a confirmation.

Secondly, the Psalms were obviously an "engine of revelation", to both the gospel and epistle writers of the NT, for presenting aspects of God's Christ, who is Jesus our Lord. A lot of the aspects of Jesus' life and especially his mystical union with the Father in heaven are revealed there.

Thirdly, I didn't see anywhere that Christ or his disciples or subsequent "church fathers" of the first centuries discouraged any of the Psalms as somehow lacking in revelation for Christians. So what basis did WL have? Was he really "continuing steadfastly in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles" by discriminating against so much Scripture as non-revelatory? What precedent for this do we see in either within the NT text or in church history?

I noted that WL discouraged Psalm-singing among the saints, and secondly that the RecV barely covers them. And the RecV coverage is largely dismissive, calling them "natural" and "fallen concepts", versus "divine revelation". A cursory investigation of the first 35 Psalms led me to estimate that over 75% of the material was either ignored or put down. Many verses lack even the basic cross-references, much less footnotes.

Even in places where WL was forced to acknowledge the "divine revelation", i.e. "not one of his bone will be broken" in Psalm 34, he dismissed the entire surrounding text as irrelevant. So I argued that he pretty much only acknowledged as much "Christ" in the Psalms as he absolutely had to.

And I noted the disparity between this kind of treatment the Psalms versus his studies elsewhere in the OT, where he spent message after message after message gleaning "spiritual" details of the Christ from the text.

Lastly, I noted the irony that WL encouraged the LC saints to focus on the "high peak" NT revelations versus wasting time on the Psalms, when the "heart of the divine revelation" (Eph/Gal/Col/Phil) twice encouraged the saints to sing the Psalms!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Of course; let me try to recap my argument on this thread.

Paul twice (Eph. 5 & Col. 3) encourages the saints to sing the Psalms, likening them to "being filled richly with the word of Christ" and also "being filled in Spirit". (Of course, Paul didn't say exclusively to sing the Psalms, but I never said that, either.)

The fact that Paul repeats his encouragement in separate epistles is significant. Two is the number of witness. Once might be an anomaly; twice signals a trend, a confirmation.

Secondly, the Psalms were obviously an "engine of revelation", to both the gospel and epistle writers of the NT, for presenting aspects of God's Christ, who is Jesus our Lord. A lot of the aspects of Jesus' life and especially his mystical union with the Father in heaven are revealed there.

Thirdly, I didn't see anywhere that Christ or his disciples or subsequent "church fathers" of the first centuries discouraged any of the Psalms as somehow lacking in revelation for Christians. So what basis did WL have? Was he really "continuing steadfastly in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles" by discriminating against so much Scripture as non-revelatory? What precedent for this do we see in either within the NT text or in church history?

I noted that WL discouraged Psalm-singing among the saints, and secondly that the RecV barely covers them. And the RecV coverage is largely dismissive, calling them "natural" and "fallen concepts", versus "divine revelation". A cursory investigation of the first 35 Psalms led me to estimate that over 75% of the material was either ignored or put down. Many verses lack even the basic cross-references, much less footnotes.

Even in places where WL was forced to acknowledge the "divine revelation", i.e. "not one of his bone will be broken" in Psalm 34, he dismissed the entire surrounding text as irrelevant. So I argued that he pretty much only acknowledged as much "Christ" in the Psalms as he absolutely had to.

And I noted the disparity between this kind of treatment the Psalms versus his studies elsewhere in the OT, where he spent message after message after message gleaning "spiritual" details of the Christ from the text.

Lastly, I noted the irony that WL encouraged the LC saints to focus on the "high peak" NT revelations versus wasting time on the Psalms, when the "heart of the divine revelation" (Eph/Gal/Col/Phil) twice encouraged the saints to sing the Psalms!

Thanks Aron...
Shame on WL for discouraging the saints from reading the Psalms and James. Maybe Lee did not like James saying be 'doers of the WORD (Jesus) and not hearers only'????

Perhaps he would have liked it better if it said be doers of Lee and listen to him. He is the oracle on the earth...just like Joseph Smith was. uh-huh.

If the LC doesn't stop adulating LEE and to a lesser extent Nee, they are going to be just like the Mormons who adulate Joseph Smith and they are going to be in big trouble before the LORD.

Hope some LC people reading and not posting are getting it!


Carol

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

If you don't mind can you explain your comments?

I'll add to this.

WL did his Life-Study of the Bible, and then went back to certain books to do a "crystalization" study. It was mostly during this time that WL began to berate the book of James, and much of the Psalms. James supposedly was lacking in the divine revelation, and hence contained little of God's New Testament economy. It is interesting to note that many of the verses most critical of WL and LSM found in the book of James.

Lee's study of Psalms was equally critical. Besides those scriptures in Psalms, commonly known to be prophetic of Christ, e.g. Psalm 22, he relegated much of them to the trash heap of "human sentiment." Supposedly the bulk of the Psalms, especially e.g. those which spoke of "avenging my enemies," were denigrated to a lesser status because they lacked Christ, they lacked the divine inspiration, and they lacked revelation.

To a typical LC adherent, these books of James and most of the Psalms have less value than the teachings of Lee himself. Witness Lee often boasted that every page of his books was filled with the heavenly speaking, and every single book had some fresh new revelation from God.

As time progressed, Witness Lee's view of himself and his ministry grew to megalomaniacal proportions.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To a typical LC adherent, these books of James and most of the Psalms have less value than the teachings of Lee himself. Witness Lee often boasted that every page of his books was filled with the heavenly speaking, and every single book had some fresh new revelation from God.

As time progressed, Witness Lee's view of himself and his ministry grew to megalomaniacal proportions.

That's why I felt that the whole charismatic/ecstatic aspect of the LCs (shouting, waving arms, repetition) ultimately pushed aside the Scripture. The "good feeling" from "exercising" in a meeting held more value to the LC saints than the word of God itself.

Ultimately, repetitive chanting and declarations of LC phraseology in hymns, outlines, footnotes became our "peak spiritual experience" and everything else was viewed as either supporting, or was set aside as unprofitable.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

That's why I felt that the whole charismatic/ecstatic aspect of the LCs (shouting, waving arms, repetition) ultimately pushed aside the Scripture. The "good feeling" from "exercising" in a meeting held more value to the LC saints than the word of God itself.

Ultimately, repetitive chanting and declarations of LC phraseology in hymns, outlines, footnotes became our "peak spiritual experience" and everything else was viewed as either supporting, or was set aside as unprofitable.

I agree. the real test of the LC or any ministry hoopla is when you leave the meetings and go back to paying bills only to discover you have more bills Or someone criticizes you for not washing dishes etc... what about coming down with something awful.

You know what? That is when the psalms have comforted me and lifted me up.

The psalms taught me how to Praise without shouting or punching my fist in the air. They taught me how to worship the Lord, how to give Thanks, how to bless, how to pray and how to repent.

Long live the Psalms!!!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I'll add to this.

WL did his Life-Study of the Bible, and then went back to certain books to do a "crystalization" study. It was mostly during this time that WL began to berate the book of James, and much of the Psalms. James supposedly was lacking in the divine revelation, and hence contained little of God's New Testament economy. It is interesting to note that many of the verses most critical of WL and LSM found in the book of James.

As I wrote in my response to Aron...Lee didn't want his flock to be doers of the WORD eh?

Here are some other scriptures from James that probably rubbed Lee the wrong way:

If you need Wisdom, ask our generous God, and He will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone.

Don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us His True Word (Jesus) . And we, out of all creation, became His prized possession

According to these scriptures, we are instructed to go to God Himself for Wisdom...and are advised not to be misled. Do you suppose Lee didn't want people to get Wisdom from their Creator? Do you think Lee wanted to mislead people? Hmmm... No wonder he didn't like the book of James!

Lee's study of Psalms was equally critical. Besides those scriptures in Psalms, commonly known to be prophetic of Christ, e.g. Psalm 22, he relegated much of them to the trash heap of "human sentiment." Supposedly the bulk of the Psalms, especially e.g. those which spoke of "avenging my enemies," were denigrated to a lesser status because they lacked Christ, they lacked the divine inspiration, and they lacked revelation.

Does Lee's flock still believe Psalms and James are of a lesser status?

Seems to me, he lacked Christ and lacked divine inspiration and revelation from the Throne.

To a typical LC adherent, these books of James and most of the Psalms have less value than the teachings of Lee himself. Witness Lee often boasted that every page of his books was filled with the heavenly speaking, and every single book had some fresh new revelation from God.

In my last year there, I recalled hearing a lot about this heavenly speaking. Fortunately, I equated the WORD as being the Heavenly Speaking.

Little by little however, I became sickened by the 'heavenly speaking' because it was not coming from God.

As time progressed, Witness Lee's view of himself and his ministry grew to megalomaniacal proportions

"megalonmanical"....resembles Lebron James personality.

I only hope those who have very disillusioned, discouraged and hurt by the LC will realize Jesus is the Same--Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow...the Healer of our souls, Who restores our health and heals our wounds. Our Creator truly does love us! He just wants us to Love Him back, listen and obey His leading, His guidance through His Spirit and His Anointed Word.

Thanks all,
Blessings and Joy to everyone.

Carol Garza

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Does Lee's flock still believe Psalms and James are of a lesser status?

Evidently.

Yesterday I was in Psalm 30, and came across the line, "When you hid your face from me, then I was ashamed" (v.7), and I remembered how Christ bore our shame on the cross, and the Father turned away from him. He who did not know sin was made sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21). Tears came to my eyes. (And see Isa. 53:3-5, Heb. 12:2, Psa. 22, Matt. 27:46).

In the RecV, this doesn't get considered. No footnote, no cross-reference.

Does all this make me somehow superior to WL & Co? Not at all; obedience is what matters. These verses have to impact one's daily living. The faithful doers of the word are not merely hearers only. But I still come back to this: how can you be a doer of the Word when your "oracle" tells you to ignore it?

Conversely, can I "prove" that Psalm 30:7 is equivalent to the other scriptures cited above? No; nor can I say that WL was "incorrect" in not pointing out this phrase in the RecV.

But this is the word of God; it has the power to radically transform one's life, and probably 75 to 85 percent of the word of God in the RecV Psalms was set aside as of no value.

Seems to me, he lacked Christ and lacked divine inspiration and revelation from the Throne.

That was my conclusion: WL said the word lacked divine revelation, when it was WL himself that lacked revelation.

Again, this doesn't mean that I myself have "laid hold" of the divine revelation. It means that if I do want to lay hold, I'd better not follow WL.

In my last year there, I recalled hearing a lot about this heavenly speaking. Fortunately, I equated the WORD as being the Heavenly Speaking.

Little by little however, I became sickened by the 'heavenly speaking' because it was not coming from God.

It seems to be a classic case of "lifting oneself up", or "being puffed up". Eventually the ministry of WL tried to subsume everything else. The "servant" tried to take the focus away from "the master". And the "interpreted word" tried to push aside the WORD itself.

[countmeworthy]

I just read the book of James. Although I do not know if it was James Zebeddee who wrote it or Jesus' brother James...(for we know Mary who concieved Jesus by the Holy Spirit, had children by Joseph her husband,) I found it once again, filled with Words of WISDOM.

It reminded me very much of Proverbs.

I found it filled with Truth and very good Counsel!

For the record, I have heard of other factions of Christian organizations who don't like the book of James either.

But by the opening lines, I think this James was a close buddy of Paul's because he is addressing his letter to the 12 scattered tribes of Jewish believers. And Paul, who I think wrote Hebrews is also addressing the Jewish believers in Christ.

Blessings all,

Carol Garza

[Ohio]

Philip Schaaf had some wonderful observations about Luke's Gospel that I thought appropriate to share here ...

7. It is the gospel of poetry. We mean the poetry of religion, the poetry of worship, the poetry of prayer and thanksgiving, a poetry resting not on fiction, but on facts and eternal truth. In such poetry there is more truth than in every-day prose. The whole book is full of dramatic vivacity and interest. It begins and ends with thanksgiving and praise. The first two chapters are overflowing with festive joy and gladness; they are a paradise of fragrant flowers, and the air is resonant with the sweet melodies of Hebrew psalmody and Christian hymnody.

The Salute of Elizabeth ("Ave Maria"), the "Magnificat" of Mary, the "Benedictus" of Zacharias, the "Gloria in Excelsis" of the Angels, the "Nunc Dimittis" of Simeon, sound from generation to generation in every tongue, and are a perpetual inspiration for new hymns of praise to the glory of Christ.

No wonder that the third Gospel has been pronounced, from a purely literary and humanitarian standpoint, to be the most beautiful book ever written."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Philip Schaaf had some wonderful observations about Luke's Gospel:

The whole book is full of dramatic vivacity and interest. It begins and ends with thanksgiving and praise. The first two chapters are overflowing with festive joy and gladness

There is a scene in Luke's chapter 2 about angels appearing to the shepherds at night in the fields. At one point it says,

13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

There are times while in the Psalms, that I feel the praises I am reading are very close to those of the angels, that what is being said on earth may actually mirror the praises heard among 'the multitude of the heavenly host'. The wording is often very simple, and even archaic, but with increasing exposure I begin to apprehend, like Paul did, what is its transcendent breadth, length, depth and height.

And WL panned it because it didn't display "God's NT economy". On the contrary, it may display for us the clearest framework of God's economy, both in source, in exercise, and in fulfillment (i.e. 'consummation').

I do remember, sitting there passively while WL mocked the local church saints for praising God in the Psalms. Oh Lord, have mercy on us all and forgive us, because we did not know what we were doing! Lord, make us willing to pay the price and buy from You some eyesalve.