The Psalms are the word of Christ

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

the death and resurrection of Jesus set in motion the end of Satan. But, in time, the defeat is not complete until he is cast away eternally. So the accomplishment is not fulfilled until then..

The defeat of Satan is accomplished, but the "fall of Satan" is recursive; it happened before Adam and Eve's fall from grace (Isa. 14:12, etc), and it happened when Jesus sent out the seventy-two in his name in Luke 10, (see e.g. v. 18), and it will surely happen in Revelation 12. I suspect that it happens every time we obey the speaking of the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by OBW

So the law and the demand for righteousness remains. Jesus demanded of us righteousness and justice. He demanded love for our fellow man that equaled our love for ourselves...

And arguably "every Christian knows" the commands of Jesus. Love each other, keep yourself unspotted from the world, forgive one another, and repent when you yourself fail.

Originally Posted by OBW

So, as the Psalmists say in so many ways, we need to meditate on the righteous commandments of the law. Dwell on them day and night. Abide by them.

Even in the era of grace.

In my very limited experience of "mediating on the righteous commands of the law" I see both my miserable failure and the thrill of Jesus the Nazarene stepping in for not only me but all of us. His life and work pleased the Father; he obeyed to the full, and now we can see him and be emboldened to follow.

Have I done a very good job at it? I don't know. Really my meditations on a phrase in Psalm 56:13 means nothing if I don't obey. If I don't walk before God in the light of life as I faintly see Jesus going before, then my comments display yet another know-it-all hypocrite. If I don't live it, then I don't "know" Psalm 56 at all, or any of it.

So I struggle, and try. At its core the command is very simple. See Jesus going before us, and follow him. Hear his voice, and by faith obey.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

The defeat of Satan is accomplished . . . .

We say that. And in the manner that I described, it is true. From the perspective of eternity, it is true. In fact from that perspective it has always been true.

But does that statement mean all is accomplished just because it is according to eternity? Or is the temporal accomplishing of all only realized when the events of time play out?

This was what I believe to be one of Lee's errors. He pushed eternity into the realm of time and declared the requirements of time — righteousness, justice (in short, God's righteous law) — to be ended because in eternity it was true.

We should boldly declare that Satan was defeated on the cross. From eternity, that was the event that ended his reign. But in time, it is the key to the march toward his defeat.

Before the battle begins we can correctly declare that it already belongs to the Lord. But the final battle has not begun (in at least one respect). So we cannot declare to be free of the righteous requirement of the law. It is not yet ended (in time). The requirement of endless sacrifices has been abolished. But we are still called to righteousness. But we are expected to walk according to the Spirit, not just according to the statements of law.

So you are right to say that just meditating on the law is not the end-all to accomplishing it. But it is intended to be accomplished, not avoided. There is now a new and better way.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

you are right to say that just meditating on the law is not the end-all to accomplishing it. But it is intended to be accomplished, not avoided. There is now a new and better way.

Psalm 56:12 I am under vows to you, my God;
I will present my thank offerings to you.
13 For you have delivered me from death
and my feet from stumbling,
that I may walk before God
in the light of life.

I was singing Psalm 56, and the melodic refrain induced repetition of verse 13... my consciousness shifted, and focused... my mind went blank and the light flooded my heart and I could “see Jesus” walking in the light of life before the Father God in heaven. “And when again He brings the firstborn Son into the inhabited earth..."

And 'the eyes of my heart' superimposed that with Psalm 27:13; about David [Christ] seeing the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living. I had also been lingering musically on this line.

Psalm 27:11 Teach me your way, LORD;
lead me in a straight path
because of my oppressors.
12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes,
for false witnesses rise up against me,
spouting malicious accusations.
13 I remain confident of this:
I will see the goodness of the LORD
in the land of the living.

I was not trying to “do” anything, just getting "enjoying", or getting “dispensed”. But eventually, when I stop singing, what to do? Ignore this word, or live it? Except that “It is now no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me…” This is perhaps Paul's point in Colossians 3 about "the word of Christ dwelling in you richly". But the obedience is still there. Christ always obeys the Father (John 8:29).

Secondly, and important: WL said that Christ was the "universality and centrality" of God’s will, move, administration, household, kingdom, economy, and so forth. This I agree with. BUT, WL said that this universal and central Christ was only seen in Psalm 2 and not in either Psalm 1 or Psalm 3. I strongly disagree; Christ may be found there, as well. Same thing with the rest of the book of Psalms: WL said no Christ found in either Psalms 4,5,6, or 7; only to be found in Psalm 8, etc, etc.

Now, I have not spent time on Psalms 4-7, but I suspect that maybe, just maybe, Christ is there, partly veiled, looking through the lattice like the Beloved in Song of Songs 2:9. As Ohio said, the OT scripture is waiting to be "mined" for Christ just as the NT is. Clearly the NT writers and readers were mining it. Why shouldn't we? Shouldn't we "eagerly examine the Scriptures daily" like the noble Bereans?

In conclusion: no, “dispensing” isn’t the end-all and be-all. But conversely, how can we obey if we don’t see Jesus going before us (Heb. 6:2)? How can the dead rise if they don’t hear his voice (John 5:28)?

I close by again quoting OBW.

... it is intended to be accomplished, not avoided. There is now a new and better way.

Yes, there is now a new and better way. Amen; come Lord Jesus.

[aron]

I was interested in the current thread on tongue-speaking, but wanted to comment here because I see wider relevance. As OBW said, the scriptural basis for tongue-speaking does seem less than compelling. But there were two practices of "ecstatic utterances" that we had in the LCs, which I remember well, and which arguably mirror the tongue-speaking phenomena. They were:

1. Pray-reading.
2. Singing/shouting over and over again the same verses or phrases from the hymns.

In both cases the ordinary (praying, speaking, singing) became emotionally laden. It was a way to "get out of your mind", i.e. have an overwhelming emotional experience which "shut down" the typical brain activity. This was seen to be "spiritual". I find this, along with the peer pressure to participate, and the pride of attainment, and the "in-group membership" payoff to be similar to my (admittedly limited) experience with tongue-speaking in the charismatic/AOGs.

Originally Posted by james73

I learned to "speak in tongues" just to satisfy my own curiosity that it was nothing but a physical ability and, essentially a misguided power play by the church....at ICA in Hong Kong, an AOG church, I was at the Alpha course "Away Weekend" and there had been a lot of talk about tongues. It was a mark of pride, a sign of "spiritual maturity"

I agree that it can be seen as "a misguided power play by the church". Can you imagine meeting in the LCs for any length of time and NOT pray-reading, complete with special phraseology, modulated syllables, shouting and fist pumping? I doubt it. You would at best be an "associate" and not a "full" local church member.

The practices are a mark of being "in", not in spirit but in the group.

Originally Posted by james73

One girl in particular convinced me there was something wrong with this - because she WANTED it, so bad! She was almost crying at dinner, she said "why didn't God give me this gift?" And the slightly superior church lady was at her side, "there there, we all have different gifts [but mine is better than yours]."

I found it was something quite easy to learn to do, one of those little tricks like learning to whistle or blow bubble gum, that you always feel faintly foolish practicing alone but the payoffs when back in company are huge... no big deal, take away the spiritual mulch, I did it pretty well in about two minutes. It's quite fun, quite novel - and if I'd been surrounded by people in awe and praising the Lord I am sure I would have found it a spiritual experience..... but I think if everybody knew how easy it was, the myth would dissolve and nobody would bother doing it.

Certainly pray-reading in groups was easy to get into. You were given the rules ("Oh Lord Jesus, amen, hallelujah") and expected to enter in. Also the repetitive singing with shouting/declaring. In my church we would sing, then stand together in sections and either sing or declare different stanzas... the social payoff for collective arm-waving and shouting in the LC group was certainly huge.

Originally Posted by james73

I am sure there are genuine cases, but I also think it's become a thing, a power play, an attraction or amusement ride to give the kids or newcomers something to aim at. Not far off the spiritual maturity games played by LSM, come to think of it.

Yes; very similar. It is a power play - not spiritual power, but group power.

Originally Posted by james73

A Linguistic Analysis of Glossolalia by Michael Motley... there was significant language structure within "tongues" speaking, not related to speakers' own language and likely not coming from traditionally understood cognitive centres... an interesting finding and adds credence to those who would say it is from the Holy Spirit. Certainly according to those findings tongue speaking is not "made up" and is coming from somewhere deeper than the brain which controls normal language/speech.

Also, pray-reading, shouting, and singing repetitiously, loudly, and emotionally also access the brain at a deeper level than the normal language patterns. Think about your experience pray-reading, or shouting parts of hymns out loud after singing. Yet, is there not also a "significant language structure" of these supposedly spiritual experiences?

I will write how I see this related to my discussion of Psalms, in another post.

[aron]

I would like to approach ecstatic experiences from a personal level, from what I have "seen and heard" outside the LCs. And I want to relate this to my Psalms discussion because I see the psalmists' personal experiences, related in written scripture, and the subsequent public/group rehearsals -- "in the midst of the assembly I will sing hymns of praise" -- to be exemplars of the personal/group "ecstatic experiences" that

1. tongue-speaking
2. pray-reading and
3. sing/shouting hymns repetitiously

all aim for.

These practices all try to "go higher" or "go deeper" than the usual human communicative strategies; to "tap into the divine", as it were.

From my "coming closer" to the Psalms, and, from that experience, re-engaging again the words of the prophets, the law, and the NT, I can say that the Bible itself is a very emotionally-charged set of writings. "God loved us so much that He sent His only-begotten Son." Consider what is suggested by "so much"... that there is "so much" love in this gospel of Jesus Christ, right? Likewise, when we disobey, that there is "so much grief" to the Holy Spirit, and when one sinner repents, that there is "so much rejoicing" by the angels in heaven?

We often miss the emotionally-charged "so much" parts (of course I'm generalizing, but I'm trying to encapsulate my limited experience) in our traditional strategy of silently reading. Thus we feel the incentive to shout and fist-pump and repetitively chant, to "...get out of your mind and get your spirit in gear." In other words to go deeper. And this experience is easily driven or co-opted by the group "power play" dynamic.

My response is this: if we could see how much "spirit and life" was right there in the text, we'd not need so many noisy histrionics. If we scented the phenomenally rich spiritual landscape beckoning us in these words of scripture, we wouldn't so easily write them off, like WL did, as "fallen" and "natural". My view of "praise the Lord" may indeed be shallow and natural, but the praises of the angels and cherubim are certainly not! How can you say that the psalm-writer was not echoing something heavenly? How can you say how many spiritual levels may be right in front of you, staring you in the face?

When you begin to sense this, not just the Psalms but the whole Bible begins to suggest an "overwhelming emotional experience". The capacity of our emotions to contain the divine emotions expressed through the writings of the prophets and apostles and psalmists is like a shot glass underneath Niagara Falls: we might get some, even feel "soaked", but shouldn't presume to have caught it. These are truly "words of Spirit and life", and this Spirit is truly "given without measure". Then we can see David dancing before the ark; then we see the family of Jesus saying, "Someone restrain him; he is crazy" (Mark 3:21); and we see Festus interrupting Paul, "You are mad..." (Acts 26:24)

"...where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears."

The reality of God's love and power and righteousness and holiness have been there, presented before us, and plainly, all along. But we felt that we required "crutches" of our practice to touch it. When we are no longer little children we will no longer need crutches; we simply know it is true and real and good and we enter in. That may occasionally (or even often) involve shouting, praying, or tongue-speaking, but it certainly will not need them. In the long run they are "in part"; they are superfluous. And as Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 13, they will indeed pass away.