106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

[OBW]

Knowing that I will hear from some about "the full knowledge of God" and some other similar verses, the thing about this list that stands out to me is the burning desire of too many people to know a lot of stuff that will not add one bit to their spiritual stature or righteousness, and won't get them even one "star" in their "crown." (No, not one. No, not one.)

It is obvious that I do not despise knowledge. But I also accept that some kinds of knowledge are not for everybody. For example, I know little or nothing of quantum physics, string theory, Greek philosophy, archeology, calculus, electrical engineering, oil painting (or any painting that is not one color on walls or furniture), and many more. But ask me about international tax, and while I do not know everything, I know a lot.

I'm not sure that having the knowledge that "the redemption of Christ rests upon the power of the eternal Spirit" is something tremendously important. It is very true. But whether or not I know it does not improve my condition.

Reminds of a time at a family reunion when someone suggested that if we improve our lexicon, our experience of Christ will be better. I guffawed openly at that one.

(And I note that such a "lexicon" approach to scripture is probably the reason that most arguments in favor in inerrancy of scripture seem so empty. No matter how many mathematical patterns turn out to look the same up close or far away, the Word of God is not a collection of sayings, but a narrative. It is not a collection of jam-packed words, but descriptive accounts — even Paul's writings.)

I'm not suggesting just remaining totally ignorant of things. But even many of the spiritual things that Paul wrote about were not provided to think about, study, and get really knowledgeable concerning. They were typically existing facts that he provided as the reasons that the audience should act of behave in a different manner. He didn't say to study these premises well and you will become better. He said "this is true, therefore you should do . . . . [whatever]." He didn't say to become crucified with Christ. It doesn't say "you should be crucified with Christ." it says "I am crucified with Christ."

I did note that #16 "Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is" could be argued against the author himself (Lee). After all that we know about DayStar, the LSM bullying of the churches, and the lies that comprise The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, it would seem that Lee did not know what righteousness is. How could he then know that a "word of righteousness" is?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I did note that #16 "Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is" could be argued against the author himself (Lee). After all that we know about DayStar, the LSM bullying of the churches, and the lies that comprise The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, it would seem that Lee did not know what righteousness is. How could he then know that a "word of righteousness" is?

How about #1

“That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.

Was WL involved in "the wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error"? Surely he had doctrines that damaged the Body of Christ.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How about #1

“That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.

Was WL involved in "the wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error"? Surely he had doctrines that damaged the Body of Christ.

Now there's an understatement.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How about #1

“That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.

Was WL involved in "the wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error"? Surely he had doctrines that damaged the Body of Christ.

There is no better description of all the "moves, flows, and ways" which steadily proceeded out of Taipei and Anaheim over the years than Paul's own words in Ephesians ch. 4. I remember how many times today's "new way" became tomorrow's "old way." Never was this so evident than back in the mid- to late-80's during the time of the infamous "new way." That time was so damaging to the body of Christ.

Those saints who had "connections" in Taiwan would constantly inform us that our "new way" had already become the "old way" because Brother Lee had "moved on." After all, Lee was only "experimenting" in his FTTT "laboratory." The local church would get our latest "new way" either from Cleveland or from a returning local brother, but there was always a saint who would get the newer "new way" via phone call. That one week "lag" made a world of difference as to whether we were "up-to-date" or not with the Lord's "current" move.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There is no better description of all the "moves, flows, and ways" which steadily proceeded out of Taipei and Anaheim over the years than Paul's own words in Ephesians ch. 4. I remember how many times today's "new way" became tomorrow's "old way." Never was this so evident than back in the mid- to late-80's during the time of the infamous "new way." That time was so damaging to the body of Christ.

Those saints who had "connections" in Taiwan would constantly inform us that our "new way" had already become the "old way" because Brother Lee had "moved on." After all, Lee was only "experimenting" in his FTTT "laboratory." The local church would get our latest "new way" either from Cleveland or from a returning local brother, but there was always a saint who would get the newer "new way" via phone call. That one week "lag" made a world of difference as to whether we were "up-to-date" or not with the Lord's "current" move.

So then, you agree with WL that not many Christians had paid adequate attention, the LRC proves his point. The insight of a scam artist.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So then, you agree with WL that not many Christians had paid adequate attention, the LRC proves his point. The insight of a scam artist.

The genius of the LRC scam is the amount of energy it expends pointing out how everyone else is inadequate. "Not many Christians" pay adequate attention, have sufficient understanding, have proper practice, etc, etc, etc. Once you have thoroughly exposed the inadequacy of everyone else, this (purportedly) does two things: 1. it "inoculates" you against the same errors; and 2. it leaves you alone before God as the pure remnant. Any similarities which the LRC might then share with "Babylon" and "Egypt" are thought to be incidental and minor.

Neither of the assumed results are correct. The poison of the tree of knowledge is "subtle" that your eyes are indeed opened, and you do see "into darkness". Perhaps it is indeed true that "not many" Christians seek after God, pray all day, etc. But your spiritual eyesight is always distorted: the darkness/failure/shame of the other party always seems magnified and your own faults seem less significant (Matt 7:3-5; Luke 18:10-14). It is a poisoned vision; better to just say "I am blind" and ask God for mercy, and salve.

Indeed, "Many are called and few (i.e. not many) are chosen" But that sorting process is the task of the Bema, the Judgment Seat; it is not our job as fellow sinners. Any movement built on sorting the few "saints" from the many "Christians" is really built on sand.

Yes, we bought into it. WL's gospel really did make us feel special, to incessantly hear how "poor" everyone else was. But really that buying into a scam is not really so shocking, is it? Look at the disciples. How often did you see them jockeying among themselves for special, privileged position? Why wouldn't someone who came along with a "special" gospel find ears to hear?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

The genius of the LRC scam is the amount of energy it expends pointing out how everyone else is inadequate. "Not many Christians" pay adequate attention, have sufficient understanding, have proper practice, etc, etc, etc. Once you have thoroughly exposed the inadequacy of everyone else, this (purportedly) does two things: 1. it "inoculates" you against the same errors; and 2. it leaves you alone before God as the pure remnant. Any similarities which the LRC might then share with "Babylon" and "Egypt" are thought to be incidental and minor.

Neither of the assumed results are correct. The poison of the tree of knowledge is "subtle" that your eyes are indeed opened, and you do see "into darkness". Perhaps it is indeed true that "not many" Christians seek after God, pray all day, etc. But your spiritual eyesight is always distorted: the darkness/failure/shame of the other party always seems magnified and your own faults seem less significant (Matt 7:3-5; Luke 18:10-14). It is a poisoned vision; better to just say "I am blind" and ask God for mercy, and salve.

Indeed, "Many are called and few (i.e. not many) are chosen" But that sorting process is the task of the Bema, the Judgment Seat; it is not our job as fellow sinners. Any movement built on sorting the few "saints" from the many "Christians" is really built on sand.

Yes, we bought into it. WL's gospel really did make us feel special, to incessantly hear how "poor" everyone else was. But really that buying into a scam is not really so shocking, is it? Look at the disciples. How often did you see them jockeying among themselves for special, privileged position? Why wouldn't someone who came along with a "special" gospel find ears to hear?

The idea that there are immature Christians is not shocking at all. What would be shocking is if these ones who were formerly tossed about with every wave of doctrine grew from the experience and helped inoculate the Body of Christ. It would be as though WL was used to further God's purpose. That would be liking saying that the book of Job reveals God building a man.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The idea that there are immature Christians is not shocking at all. What would be shocking is if these ones who were formerly tossed about with every wave of doctrine grew from the experience and helped inoculate the Body of Christ. It would be as though WL was used to further God's purpose. That would be liking saying that the book of Job reveals God building a man.

I love my journey, failures and all, and wouldn't trade it with anyone. "Peter, you will indeed fail. But I have prayed for you, and when you turn, then you will be able to strengthen the brothers."

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

I did note that #16 "Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is" could be argued against the author himself (Lee). After all that we know about DayStar, the LSM bullying of the churches, and the lies that comprise The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, it would seem that Lee did not know what righteousness is. How could he then know that a "word of righteousness" is?

Good point. As Forrest Gump might have put it, "Righteous is as righteous does."

One of the most profound quotes I ever read, from the standpoint of viscerally impacting my central nervous system, was from the first epistle of Paul to the Corinthians. Paul was at this point covering different foods, and then he suddenly said, "We all have knowledge. Knowledge means nothing."

I was blown away, because it was so true. I am (relatively) intelligent, educated, and opinionated, and God was telling me through Paul that all my so-called 'knowledge' was just vapor before Him; just cobwebs and dust. It really shocked me. And it was so incredibly true. It was amazingly profound.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

As Forrest Gump might have put it, "Righteous is as righteous does."

One of the most profound quotes I ever read... was from the first epistle of Paul to the Corinthians. Paul was at this point covering different foods, and then he suddenly said, "We all have knowledge. Knowledge means nothing."

I was reading an essay from Nicolai Berdyaev, a Russian Christian intellectual (1874-1948). He was discussing the concept of "orthodoxy", not in the organizational, Greek/Syrian/Russian Orthodox way as much as in the "orthodox" tradition of following those who came before you, i.e. following the Christ.

Here is a quote I wanted to share.

Orthodoxy is first of all, an orthodoxy of life and not an orthodoxy of indoctrination. For it, heretics are not so much those who confess a false doctrine but those who have a false spiritual life and go along a false spiritual path. Orthodoxy is before all else, not a doctrine, not an external organization, not an external norm of behavior but a spiritual life, a spiritual experience and a spiritual path. It sees the substance of Christianity in internal spiritual activity. Orthodoxy is less the normative form of Christianity (in the sense of a normative-rational logic and moral law) but is rather its more spiritual form.

Knowledge is not so much what we say as what we do. I know that terms such as "spiritual path" may not give us a comfortable yardstick, but it still touches Paul's idea in 1 Corinthians, that our doctrinal placards, however scrupulously presented, really won't support us in the end. In the end, it's about how we have lived. Not what we declared at Tuesday night prayer meeting, but how we lived, every moment of each day.

[aron]

I remember being told that we were not supposed to see anything wrong with the church. We were told the story of Balaam who tried to curse Israel but God told Balaam that Israel was beautiful in His eyes. We also should have such a view of the church, was the refrain. No problems in the church. Nothing wrong here. See no evil, speak no evil. Being "negative" was the mark that showed you were poisoned by Satan, etc.

So why was Lee able to consistently bash "poor christianity"? It is like he was talking out both sides of his mouth. On the one hand he told us that we should see nothing wrong with the church, and if we did point out anything wrong, it merely demonstrated our own darkness. On the other hand he continually said damning things about the Christian church, of which his beloved "recovery" was supposedly the standard-bearing emblem.

And if he was in a really bad mood, he would even bash the "low condition" of the Lord's recovery. The present situation was forcing him to be "frank" with us, he would say. He would tell us we were stagnant, dormant, lifeless, etc. But God forbid if anyone else tried to be "frank". They would be hustled out the door.

So if Lee said it he was being honest. If someone else said it they were being negative. Once you understood the ground rules of the recovery, you were fine. Anyone who "couldn't get it", i.e. couldn't stomach the hypocrisy, got pointed toward the exit sign.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

And if he was in a really bad mood, he would even bash the "low condition" of the Lord's recovery. The present situation was forcing him to be "frank" with us, he would say. He would tell us we were stagnant, dormant, lifeless, etc. But God forbid if anyone else tried to be "frank". They would be hustled out the door.

So if Lee said it he was being honest. If someone else said it they were being negative. Once you understood the ground rules of the recovery, you were fine. Anyone who "couldn't get it", i.e. couldn't stomach the hypocrisy, got pointed toward the exit sign.

aron, you have to understand that in a rigid hierarchical society like the LC, "honesty and frankness" only roll downhill. These ground rules were readily apparent to all. Honesty and frankness never go uphill! Since Witness Lee alone in Anaheim, and Titus Chu in Cleveland were on top of their hills, they never faced such "honesty and frankness." And Titus Chu was well aware that his hill was not quite as high as Lee's hill, so whatever he got from Lee, he faithfully passed on to the GLA workers and elders, who in turn, passed it on to us, who in turn, gave it to our wives and kids.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

So why was Lee able to consistently bash "poor christianity"? It is like he was talking out both sides of his mouth. On the one hand he told us that we should see nothing wrong with the church, and if we did point out anything wrong, it merely demonstrated our own darkness. On the other hand he continually said damning things about the Christian church, of which his beloved "recovery" was supposedly the standard-bearing emblem.

This is where the truth about Lee and the LRC comes out.

Despite referring to the church generically, they are essentially omitting "poor Christianity" from the definition. So in the LRC lexicon, Lee did not say anything negative about the church because the church is simply the "Local Churches" that follow his teaching. All the others are merely "so-called churches" — not real churches.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Lee did not say anything negative about the church because the church is simply the "Local Churches" that follow his teaching. All the others are merely "so-called churches" — not real churches.

Through his linguistic parsings Lee could wrap himself in the Mantle of Luther, while calling Lutherans the daughter of a harlot, devilish, and satanic. Out of the same mouth flowed salty water and sweet, and we, mesmerized, could not tell the difference.

James 3:10 ...from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by aron

I was reading an essay from Nicolai Berdyaev, a Russian Christian intellectual (1874-1948). He was discussing the concept of "orthodoxy", not in the organizational, Greek/Syrian/Russian Orthodox way as much as in the "orthodox" tradition of following those who came before you, i.e. following the Christ.

Here is a quote I wanted to share.

Orthodoxy is first of all, an orthodoxy of life and not an orthodoxy of indoctrination. For it, heretics are not so much those who confess a false doctrine but those who have a false spiritual life and go along a false spiritual path. Orthodoxy is before all else, not a doctrine, not an external organization, not an external norm of behavior but a spiritual life, a spiritual experience and a spiritual path. It sees the substance of Christianity in internal spiritual activity. Orthodoxy is less the normative form of Christianity (in the sense of a normative-rational logic and moral law) but is rather its more spiritual form.

Knowledge is not so much what we say as what we do. I know that terms such as "spiritual path" may not give us a comfortable yardstick, but it still touches Paul's idea in 1 Corinthians, that our doctrinal placards, however scrupulously presented, really won't support us in the end. In the end, it's about how we have lived. Not what we declared at Tuesday night prayer meeting, but how we lived, every moment of each day.

You nailed it, brother Aron.

As for Nikolai Berdyaev, I have always liked reading his books. He had a sharp mind and could flesh out his ideas in a vibrant, fresh, and alive way.

Pure truth, to paraphrase Berdyaev, could burst the Local Church apart.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

As for Nikolai Berdyaev, I have always liked reading his books. He had a sharp mind and could flesh out his ideas in a vibrant, fresh, and alive way.

Pure truth, to paraphrase Berdyaev, could burst the Local Church apart.

Sounds to me like pure truth would burst the Orthodox Church apart too!

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds to me like pure truth would burst the Orthodox Church apart too!

I am not sure about that because our faith and spiritual life are not based on dogmas, but on Christ's love to God and each other. But as for some teachings, interpretations, and doctrines, including yours and mine, as well as Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant, -- that's for sure.

PS Check out these videos with one of our priests. Do you think he has anything to hide like WL and the blended brothers?

The goal of Christianity - Fr. Seraphim Cardoza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gdB24gyu_M You may start watching from 15:45 if you find the beginning boring.

Why America is in spiritual decline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IImc93s9SvQ

Spiritual Battles - Father Seraphim Cardoza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI2QKHu9xfQ

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

I am not sure about that because our faith and spiritual life are not based on dogmas, but on Christ's love to God and each other. But as for some teachings, interpretations, and doctrines, including yours and mine, as well as Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant, -- that's for sure.

PS Check out these videos with one of our priests. Do you think he has anything to hide like WL and the blended brothers?

Methinks that you have an idealistic view of the priesthood.

After the collapse of the Soviet Empire two decades ago, it was the Orthodox priesthood which was the biggest opposition to the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the common folks.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Knowing that I will hear from some about "the full knowledge of God" and some other similar verses, the thing about this list that stands out to me is the burning desire of too many people to know a lot of stuff that will not add one bit to their spiritual stature or righteousness, and won't get them even one "star" in their "crown." (No, not one. No, not one.)

It is obvious that I do not despise knowledge. But I also accept that some kinds of knowledge are not for everybody. For example, I know little or nothing of quantum physics, string theory, Greek philosophy, archeology, calculus, electrical engineering, oil painting (or any painting that is not one color on walls or furniture), and many more. But ask me about international tax, and while I do not know ....

Reminds of a time at a family reunion when someone suggested that if we improve our lexicon, our experience of Christ will be better. I guffawed openly at that one.

(And I note that such a "lexicon" approach to scripture is probably the reason that most arguments in favor in inerrancy of scripture seem so empty. No matter how many mathematical patterns turn out to look the same up close or far away, the Word of God is not a collection of sayings, but a narrative. It is not a collection of jam-packed words, but descriptive accounts — even Paul's writings.)

I'm not suggesting just remaining totally ignorant of things. But even many of the spiritual things that Paul wrote about were not provided to think about, study, and get really knowledgeable concerning. They were typically existing facts that he provided as the reasons that the audience should act of behave in a different manner. He didn't say to study these premises well and you will become better. He said "this is true, therefore you should do . . . . [whatever]." He didn't say to become crucified with Christ. It doesn't say "you should be crucified with Christ." it says "I am crucified with Christ."

I did note that #16 "[COLOR=darkgreen]Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is

Hi Mike...
Totally respect your post and understand where you are coming from..except on the international tax stuff.

As for the lexicon and scriptural jargon.... The letter does kill!! Haven't we all met people who quote scriptures only to choke the Life out of us? We then meet someone else who shares the same scriptures and suddenly ¥¥ BING¥¥ we GET IT or we are splashed with the WATER of LIFE!!! And we leave so very refreshed!

Just want to share with all, The Holy Spirit of God, Who is ALMIGHTY GOD Himself opened the eyes of my understanding on the Word of Righteousness. In a nutshell, it is Christ Himself and we all know this mentally speaking.

I personally believe it takes the Revelation from the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of Righteousness. Practically speaking however, we all know their are lots of "True Words" spoken by many fine people out there but only ONE is Righteous.

To enter into the Presence of the Word of Righteousness requires us to have a clean heart, a purified mind and the Revelation of the Holy Spirit for He is the One Who reveals Jesus to us, even though He is Christ Jesus in us.

Forgive me if I sound "spiritual". I am not trying to impress anyone. It is just that as I began to speak the Scriptures a few years back, the Lord, the Holy Spirit began to open the eyes of my understanding!

Think about it!? Isn't the entire bible but especially the NT, filled with spiritual jargon? Every book begins and closes glorifying the Lord. Sometimes we read about the Spirit working in us, sometimes "God" is addressed, sometimes it is Christ Jesus.

They are not sermons. The writers are addressing the living saints...and they are all FILLED with the Spirit.

Can I explain it? No. So when I write spiritual words, it is because I DO understand what I am writing!! I am not quoting scriptures! I KNOW I AM crucified with Christ!! I get it!,! TOTALLY!,,

Paul wrote he was a prisoner of Christ. For years that was a scary thought. What connotation does being a prisoner convey? Nothing positive right?

Then a couple of years ago, I GOT IT!,!! What a blessing to be a prisoner of Christ!!!! There is where we are fully protected from all evil!!!! Praise our Awesome Lord and King!!!!

Ok..enough sharing / preaching to the choir!

Blessings and Peace,

Carol

[OBW]

Carol,

Funny thing is that when I think about over-pushing the "spiritual" side of things, I sometimes think of you. Seemingly right at the border at times.

But then you clear it up with posts like that one.

We may know a lot of stuff. We may really understand it. But until the Spirit reveals it, we don't really know it. We have just check-off another box on the
"I believe" list.

And you said that so eloquently.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Carol,

Funny thing is that when I think about over-pushing the "spiritual" side of things, I sometimes think of you. Seemingly right at the border at times.

But then you clear it up with posts like that one.

We may know a lot of stuff. We may really understand it. But until the Spirit reveals it, we don't really know it. We have just check-off another box on the
"I believe" list.

And you said that so eloquently.

Well..thanks Mike! Very kind words from you. . I really do have revelation coupled with experience when I share. I never quote scriptures or share on a topic I have not experienced. It may not come across that way but I am trying with the Lord's help of course to express myself without coming across overbearing & over spiritual.

P.S. When I pray...if I am praying solely for worship, it is there I get revelation beyond human understanding. Sometimes when I address the Holy Spirit in prayer for example, I acknowledge Him being the Spirit of Jesus as well as the Spirit of God the Father. So when I Praise and Honor Him for being the Spirit of Jesus, bazingah!! I suddenly get IT!!! And something happens to me. It is as if GOD ushers me into a new and Glorious dimension. That is the reason I sometimes write as I do, coming across unfortunately as being spiritually overbearing. I do not mean to. Honest.

When I pray for earthly needs, and make my requests be made known to the LORD, I thank Him " with a heart filled with gratitude and thanksgiving for receiving the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart (quoting Psalm 19 in my prayer) to the Praise and Glory of His Name.". I really do pray this way.

When I pray with friends, they express their astonishment in a positive way in the way I prayed. I am not trying to impress them. Are you kidding me ?? If I dare go in that direction, I will get a heavenly whipping!! And I w7ill get spanked right then and there. It takes one good whipping and I/ we will never do that again!!! No thank you!

Muchos blessings to you and everyone here.

Carol G

[james73]

Originally Posted by OBW

Knowing that I will hear from some about "the full knowledge of God" and some other similar verses, the thing about this list that stands out to me is the burning desire of too many people to know a lot of stuff that will not add one bit to their spiritual stature or righteousness, and won't get them even one "star" in their "crown." (No, not one. No, not one.)

Yup, perfect, nail on the head there. It's just empty calories, sugar. And the reward, the sugar high, is the puffed up pride, the feel-good from being one of the few "in the know".

Aron related Lee's style to a politician - to me, it's more a small-time broker trying to convince people to buy gold NOW ("not many people know that the gold price is linked to x, y, z etc etc").

Yes, it inflates the speaker by deceitfully claiming common knowledge as one's own authority. But it also inflates and flatters the listener as being one let in on a secret, as being special, as being "chosen". Sound familiar? It's security, ego and one-upmanship, packaged in a socially-acceptable form... like cigarettes in the 1950s.

LSM is Christianity with a dopamine rush. That's why it's so addictive and hard to leave.