The Psalms are the word of Christ

[Cal]

The problem of evil would exist if the Bible and the Psalms didn't exist. The problem of evil would exist if there was no religion in the world.

So it's really not a matter of arguing which parts of the Bible we think are truly reflective of God. Because the God who lets innocents suffer would exist even if we didn't have the Bible and all its vexing propositions. So blaming the problem on mean-spirited OT writers doesn't solve it. God has let more innocents suffer than the writer of Psalm 137 ever thought of cursing.

We have a proposition (God is good and loving) and a fact (innocents suffer). If you believe the first then you must believe that innocents suffering is not incompatible with love and goodness. And if you can truly accept that, then Psalm 137 is not a problem to you, because it will mean you've become able to look behind the veil a bit and realize that love is a lot more mysterious and complex than our shallow, Santa Claus, hippie version of it.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Igzy

We have a proposition (God is good and loving) and a fact (innocents suffer). If you believe the first then you must believe that innocents suffering is not incompatible with love and goodness. And if you can truly accept that, then Psalm 137 is not a problem to you, because it will mean you've become able to look behind the veil a bit and realize that love is a lot more mysterious and complex than our shallow, Santa Claus, hippie version of it.

Who it's innocent? According to whom? All have sinned. All. Adam's sin constituted everyone sinners. All share that guilt.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Who it's innocent? According to whom? All have sinned. All. Adam's sin constituted everyone sinners. All share that guilt.

I would like to present the shocking proposition that the Bible is primarily about Jesus Christ. Yes, it does mention sinners like you and me (and ALL the rest of us), but our temporary experience of the fall (as ABiF says, "all share that guilt")should prepare us to experience Grace. And we all believe that this grace is found in the person of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Now, how does that relate to WL's exposition of the Psalms? I'd like to look at the first section of Psalm 119, which strikingly models the intro in Psalm 1. Psalm 1 celebrated the righteous man who kept the law (and whom WL said didn't exist, and whom I say was actually Jesus Christ). Likewise, Psalm 119 starts off with "Blessed are those whose ways are blameless; who walk according to the law of the Lord" (NIV). See the similarity?

Similarly, WL's commentary here starts with his usual disquisition about "letter-keepers" such as Pharisees and Saul of Tarsus, versus "God-seekers" such as Paul the apostle. The man Jesus Christ is not mentioned, except for a brief note that "Christ is the reality of the law".

Now, Jesus said, "These things were written concerning me". He didn't say they were written concerning Pharisees and/or apostles. Jesus is the one whose ways were blameless. And He is now our way (or, He should be).

My purpose for this post (sorry for the length) is actually found at the end of the first section of Psalm 119: verse 8. "I will obey your decrees; do not utterly forsake me." (NIV) Who is the obedient Son here? Jesus the Righteous. Whose soul was not left in Hades? Whose flesh didn't see corruption? The apostle Paul? No, his grave is also with us. Again, see Peter's speech in Acts chapter 2: for me it's crucial to our NT understanding of the OT text. In verses 29 and 35 Peter said that Psalm 16 and 110 were not about David, but really about one of his descendants, "this Jesus" (v.36). God recognized the obedience and faithfulness of Jesus the Nazarene, and provided proof to all by raising Him from the dead, and placing Him far above everything at His right hand. Jesus was, is, and will always remain, the fulfillment of the "God-seeking" aspirations of the psalmist.

As WL used to say, "I could give a whole conference on this point." Here, in Psalm 119:8, the idea of being "utterly forsaken" (which means all of us sinners) and being redeemed by faith in the obedient ONE is arguably worth a conference, and it doesn't even get a passing note. Somehow, our disobedience, fall, sin, and death, and Jesus' righteousness, with our faith, repentance, redemption, rebirth and obedience/transformation were not part of WL's "God's New Testament economy" yardstick here. And all of us who sat under these messages and teachings were very much poorer for it.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by aron

Now, Jesus said, "These things were written concerning me". He didn't say they were written concerning Pharisees and/or apostles. Jesus is the one whose ways were blameless. And He is now our way (or, He should be).

Exactly! The (unique/only) righteous man was Christ. And because of this, because of His obedience He was blessed as we, through believing in Him are blessed. The fact of His death and all that made it possible (His fulfilling the law, His obedience to the Father) was a blessing to Him and ultimately to all those who believe.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Who it's innocent? According to whom? All have sinned. All. Adam's sin constituted everyone sinners. All share that guilt.

But when was the last time you bashed a baby against the stones?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But when was the last time you bashed a baby against the stones?

I think a more relevant question based on the context is "how would you respond if someone bashed your baby against the stones?"

As Aron said, the Psalms record the journey that we as believers take. This person before getting saved might have decided to respond tit for tat.

However, that is not what this Psalm records. Instead this person is not taking vengeance, as the NT says, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" saith the Lord. Instead this person is praying for the Day of the Lord to come and for judgment to be given. Once again, this is still according to the Lord's word in the NT where He said "as you have measured it will be measured to you".

The attitude here may not reach the super spirituality of Awareness, but it is certainly not a basis to say that the Psalms are not the word of Christ, which is how Awareness presented this verse.

Also, as Igzy said, you are confusing "love" with "righteousness". Jesus died for us because He loved us, but His horrific death as a result of being betrayed, a kangaroo court, and then the cruel scourging on top of the crucifixion; that was righteousness.

God is a God of Love and of Righteousness.

Zeek and Awareness would have us believe that this verse somehow is at odds with this. Yet, any other option would violate God's righteousness.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by awareness

But when was the last time you bashed a baby against the stones?

James 2:10 For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God's laws
( I realize I'm quoting from an unpopular book)

I've never bashed a baby's head, should I feel better? Should you?

But Lord....I can't be THAT bad. I've never bashed a baby's head against the stones and those other guys have.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

James 2:10 For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God's laws
( I realize I'm quoting from an unpopular book)

I've never bashed a baby's head, should I feel better? Should you?

But Lord....I can't be THAT bad. I've never bashed a baby's head against the stones and those other guys have.

Glad you were light hearted about it bro ABrotherinFaith.

And ... I have a president that's killing babies with drones ... so I guess I am guilty ... by proxy.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by awareness

And ... I have a president that's killing babies with drones ... so I guess I am guilty ... by proxy.

I've got the same President. I didn't vote for him though so technically...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Glad you were light hearted about it bro ABrotherinFaith.

And ... I have a president that's killing babies with drones ... so I guess I am guilty ... by proxy.

No you're not guilty of anything.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Glad you were light hearted about it bro ABrotherinFaith.

And ... I have a president that's killing babies with drones ... so I guess I am guilty ... by proxy.

Good point, we all have seen the pictures of wailing men and women holding up small children killed in these bombs paid for with our tax dollars. I imagine many of these people have the same sentiment

137:8 O daughter of Babylon (the great Satan), who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

If that were their attitude then it would appear that the God they worship is no different from the God we worship. Except that in the revelation of the God we worship He first "reconciled us who were enemies" by sending His own Son to die on the cross for us. Yes there will be a righteous judgement, but first there is a wonderful Savior who proves that this righteous God "so loved the world" and that He does not desire that any would perish but rather that we would have eternal life.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Who it's innocent? According to whom? All have sinned. All. Adam's sin constituted everyone sinners. All share that guilt.

When Timothy McVeigh blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City, children at the day care there died. Those children were the innocent victims of McVeigh's wrath. If you don't understand that then you don't understand what this discussion is about. If you want to make the case that those children deserved what McVeigh dished out then have at it and good luck, but I wouldn't want to be you in the effort.