The Psalms are the word of Christ

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I know God loves children more than I ever could. Yet he lets some suffer in ways I find appalling. That doesn't "reflect Jesus" any more than this Psalm does, at least according to your standard.

What makes you seem disingenuous is that you take your frustration about the way things are out on the Psalmist, because he's an easy target, rather that on God, who let the children suffer in the first place. I mean, what's worse, some creepy Psalmist singing about killing children, or a God who lets them be killed? The Psalmist is chump change. You should be taking aim on God himself. But you don't. Which is why I don't take you seriously when you go off like this. Because you don't have the courage of your own convictions.

Bro Igzy, for many reasons I just love you to death. You just have a way of bringing things down to the brass tacks.

Hey, I'm on egg shells on this forum. So I'm just trying to play by the rules of this sand box.

But I think you are right. The Psalmist is just a sock puppet of God, we think. If we accept this verse, and others in the Psalms, we have to accept that God does not love "the little Children," or "those neighbors." Then we're forced to ask : "What's wrong with God, that He could write "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Bro Igzy, it may appear that I'm being disingenuous, but I'm not. I've struggled in my mind with the problem of evil for a long time, and especially since the death of my son. I'm no stranger to cognitive dissonance. I'm loaded down with it, in fact. It's vexing at times.

And I see that Lee dealt with it too. He solved the problem of cognitive dissonance he found in the Psalms by, dismissing it as the work of the Psalmist, not the work of Gods' inspiration. The Psalmist must have been a very hateful scribe. Why would God use such a hateful guy? That seeks to use God to promote his personal hatefulness?

Lee didn't understand it, and neither do I. And it only introduces more dissonance, but I've only been able to come up with one answer :

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[Ohio]

John, the older cousin of Jesus, thought that Jesus did evil too.

So he sent his friends to Jesus to question Him, saying basically "we thought you were a good God, and see what have you done."

Jesus said, "look around and see all the good I have done. Are you blind?"

Then He concluded for the sake of us all, "blessed is the man who is not offended by Me.".

John's problem, and ours too, of course, is that when things don't go well for us, we would see evil in God. The tests will always come our way. Whenever disaster strikes, like in Newtown, there's always a few who scream, "how could God let this happen to children?"

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

And it only introduces more dissonance, but I've only been able to come up with one answer :

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah's conception of God was pre-Platonic. The New Testament is influenced by the Platonic idea that identifies God with "the Good" or ultimate goodness.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Isaiah's conception of God was pre-Platonic. The New Testament is influenced by the Platonic idea that identifies God with "the Good" or ultimate goodness.

I disagree that Isaiah or the New Testament authors were influenced by the arrival or departure of Plato from this world.

That's like saying the difference between WWI and WWII was the absence of mustard gas because my loving mother had been born in the interim.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I disagree that Isaiah or the New Testament authors were influenced by the arrival or departure of Plato from this world.

That's like saying the difference between WWI and WWII was the absence of mustard gas because my loving mother had been born in the interim.

That, unfortunately, is known as the "Pre Manhattan" (not pre Ohio) view of world annihilation. Since the advent of the atomic bomb man is much more efficient at world annihilation, though unfortunately they still don't know what spirit they are of.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I disagree that Isaiah or the New Testament authors were influenced by the arrival or departure of Plato from this world.

That's like saying the difference between WWI and WWII was the absence of mustard gas because my loving mother had been born in the interim.

The coincidence is that before Plato one does not find a god who is all good anywhere in the world. After Plato you find many in the Alexandrian and then the Roman empires including Philo among the Jews. Why would you choose to ignore the correlation?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The coincidence is that before Plato one does not find a god who is all good anywhere in the world. After Plato you find many in the Alexandrian and then the Roman empires including Philo among the Jews. Why would you choose to ignore the correlation?

I will consider the correlation when you provide evidence that the God of the OT was not "good". According to Jesus in the NT only one is good, and that was God. Clearly, based on the context He is referring to the God of Israel.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

The coincidence is that before Plato one does not find a god who is all good anywhere in the world. After Plato you find many in the Alexandrian and then the Roman empires including Philo among the Jews. Why would you choose to ignore the correlation?

Before Plato there is the One God in Israel Who is good. After Plato there is the One God in Israel Who is good.

I didn't ignore the correlation, I only expressed the opinion that it made little sense, as if Isaiah's or the Gospel's concept of God was somehow influenced by the first coming of Plato.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Before Plato there is the One God in Israel Who is good. After Plato there is the One God in Israel Who is good.

I didn't ignore the correlation, I only expressed the opinion that it made little sense, as if Isaiah's or the Gospel's concept of God was somehow influenced by the first coming of Plato.

So then Isaiah did not write Isa 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

So then Isaiah did not write Isa 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"?

I'm getting a little dizzy, so I'll have to get off this ride.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I think you are right. The Psalmist is just a sock puppet of God, we think. If we accept this verse, and others in the Psalms, we have to accept that God does not love "the little Children," or "those neighbors." Then we're forced to ask : "What's wrong with God, that He could write "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Why would God use such a hateful guy? That seeks to use God to promote his personal hatefulness?

You are still avoiding the point. The problem isn't the Psalmist. The problem is God. He's the one who lets little children suffer. The Psalmist is just singing about it.

So why are you so bent out of shape about the Psalmist when you should be bent out of shape about God?

Your frustration is misdirected. You don't want to face the fact that God DOES let little children suffer. Yet, he loves them more than you ever could.

Of course, I'm being the rhetorical. The problem isn't God. The problem is, as U2's Bono so aptly put it, your "hippie" version of God and love. You want love on your terms, not as it really is.

This is the essence of the problem. Instead of trying to make God in your image, try imagining yourself in His.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

You are still avoiding the point. The problem isn't the Psalmist. The problem is God. He's the one who lets little children suffer. The Psalmist is just singing about it.

So why are you so bent out of shape about the Psalmist when you should be bent out of shape about God?

Your frustration is misdirected. You don't want to face the fact that God DOES let little children suffer. Yet, he loves them more than you ever could.

Of course, I'm being the rhetorical. The problem isn't God. The problem is, as U2's Bono so aptly put it, your "hippie" version of God and love. You want love on your terms, not as it really is.

This is the essence of the problem. Instead of trying to make God in your image, try imagining yourself in His.

The gospel of salvation would not be a gospel if we were not under the judgment of God as sinners. Prior to Christ's death on the cross God's righteous judgment was not "good news". But after Christ's death it is. We can escape the righteous judgment, not based on our own righteousness but based on Christ's, and that includes Babylonians. That is good news. But how is "salvation" good news if there is no judgment of sin? If the wicked, abominable, sinful liars and murderers are not judged, how is that "good news"? The gospel of Matthew includes chapter 24. All four gospels include the crucifixion. The good news is that this righteous God who rewards us based on our deeds gave us His only begotten Son that we could be saved by believing on Him.

Now, if you have a wicked murderer who has slaughtered innocents and dashed babies against rocks, and this person doesn't have a conscience to repent of these evil deeds and confess that Jesus is Lord, then yes, it is good news that they are judged at the appearing of the Lord of Glory.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Now, if you have a wicked murderer who has slaughtered innocents and dashed babies against rocks, and this person doesn't have a conscience to repent of these evil deeds and confess that Jesus is Lord, then yes, it is good news that they are judged at the appearing of the Lord of Glory.

Whether in this age or in the next; through salvation or judgment, every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is Lord!