The LCS Factor

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Ohio I learn more and more about the LCS almost on a weekly basis. If I have questions I go to those I know who use to be there and simply ask them. It's really a simple process.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Ohio from what I have read from you and others on this forum the LCS to this day is run my extremists. Consider what happened to Peter's dad in Cleveland - a professional educator and founder of two Christian schools no less.

[blessD]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Ohio from what I have read from you and others on this forum the LCS to this day is run my extremists. Consider what happened to Peter's dad in Cleveland - a professional educator and founder of two Christian schools no less.

To the last few posts, and this one:

Some mentioned various childhood and family problems we have discussed are everywhere and close to the same level as any other Christian community. I have been a part of different Christian gatherings since 1988, and I have not seen anything even close to the same extremity of problems. Somehow, I am thinking Houston and OKC weren't just bad apples in the barrel.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Hope again I ask you if there is a cause and effect relationship between the behaviors I listed in my first post on this thread and the LCS what is that relationship? And if it exists who not what is to blame? I mentioned in a previous post that the idea you propagated that the "system" is to blame I consider a cop out. It is too sterile and abstract. People make and operate systems. I maintain, with exceptions, that Lee, the leadership and the parents who abdicated their parental responsibilities in pursuit of their Lee fixes are to blame.

[Hope]

dj,

I spent some time searching my memory about any and all divorces that occurred in Dallas from 1971 up until today. I came up with eleven. Of course there could be more and two were the second and third of the same woman who had moved there. Three were troubled couples who picked up meeting with us after they were married and brought problems with them. Maybe that comes out to 3-5% but at worse way under 10%. If you take the entire history of OK City not just the 15, I wonder what the percent would be - 50%, 60%, or 40% or maybe even down to the level of your evangelical church, 34%. At any rate, it is a tragedy if it is 5%. Divorce is not what the Lord intended. I grieve for all Christian marriages that end in divorce. I do not agree that some marriages just cannot make it. If both spouses receive the proper care and learn to take Christ in reality as the solution to their problems then the Lord can do whatever is needed.

Here are a few informal practices and formal practices that hurt marriages and parenting in the local churches and in the church in Dallas. I would like you to reciprocate and share with us the faults in your church and ministry that you have identified that contributed to the high divorce rate of 34%. It may be a help to us on the forum.

Regarding singles who met and married in the church: Things often moved way too fast. You need to get to know a person before you enter into marriage. Often the person you see in the meetings may not be exactly the person you think you are marrying. I observed my wife for several months before I expressed any interest directly to her. By then I knew that if she would have me then I would be very blessed. Then, we had a 14 month engagement. We saw each other several times a week during this time. I visited with her parents. By the time we had the wedding we really knew each other and there were few surprises. But in Dallas singles moved very fast to be married. This was the church culture.

We had too many church related activities and it was expected that everyone would participate in as many as possible. Family time was not promoted.

The leadership in many places did not spend adequate time to get to know the members up close and personal. The leadership was often too heavenly minded to be of much earthly good.

Other than George Whitington, very few of the leaders spoke of the wonderfulness of marriage. WL himself was very negative in almost every instance in which he spoke of marriage. He had a very skewed view of marriage and family and it affected the leaders in the local churches.

In fact there was a great flat spot in teaching ministry and counseling labor regarding building up the family. The stress from Lee set up a false dichotomy between family and church.

The local churches were too legal and religious toward the children and often antagonized the children. When my son was 14, he let his blond hair grow very long. His hair was longer than any of his worldly classmates at school and really stood out in the church meetings etc. One brother (not an elder) approached me about his hair and rebuked me for not having my children in subjection. I shared with him that I was taking a long range view. While I was not happy within, I was not going to let a few inches of hair possibly lead to our estrangement. I knew he would cut it off in a short time. I wanted him to have the peace to come to me when he had some big problem to talk about.

This leads to my next point. There were codes of conduct that allegedly reflected a person's spirituality. How your children behaved was a reflection on the spirituality of the parents. There was a lot of peer pressure to be accepted and viewed as a member in good standing. Part of this was due to the excessive amount of activities and meetings. Too much of the Christian life was the meeting life. The family life was neglected since there are just so many hours in a day and so many days in a week. Dallas was probably the worst offender in having a jam packed schedule.

There was too much emphasis on the ministry of WL. He was the main staple. Whenever the local elders focused on meeting the needs in their place, someone like Benson or James Barber would come down on them. Sigh, sigh, how grieved I am for my role in not meeting the saints and their family's needs.

Finally, though if I took the time and thought I am sure I could come up with more, but finally, there was a great lack of prayer and fighting the spiritual warfare for the families and for the children in particular. No one knew how and few had any realization regarding what was happening in the unseen realm. I saw many of the children suffer injustices at school. Things that were illogical. We never knew that the demons may have been behind the harassment directed at the children. (Just an example of our need to be on the alert.) Perhaps dj this is a big shortage at your place. Based on the way you brushed this off when I mentioned it in post #13, you obviously could use some help in this area. Consider, maybe the ones you are seeking to help are suffering because you do not know these things.

Well it is now your turn. If you would share your experiences, we ex local churchers could probably get some help and see some of our shortcoming by seeing what a better family, parenting model looks like.


Don Rutledge

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Hope

Regarding singles who met and married in the church: Things often moved way too fast. You need to get to know a person before you enter into marriage. Often the person you see in the meetings may not be exactly the person you think you are marrying. I observed my wife for several months before I expressed any interest directly to her. By then I knew that if she would have me then I would be very blessed. Then, we had a 14 month engagement. We saw each other several times a week during this time. I visited with her parents. By the time we had the wedding we really knew each other and there were few surprises. But in Dallas singles moved very fast to be married. This was the church culture.

Other than George Whitington, very few of the leaders spoke of the wonderfulness of marriage. WL himself was very negative in almost every instance in which he spoke of marriage. He had a very skewed view of marriage and family and it affected the leaders in the local churches.

Don Rutledge

Don, you are speaking something that needs to be spoken. Regarding marriages, I believe at times there's too much credence given to what the leadership thinks of a particular spouse potential. I've been told from brothers in the past sister's they had a burden for was discouraged because the sister was considered too new to the churchlife or deemed too beautiful for the brother, etc. Instead of seeking out advice from a mature brother whose been married to the same sister for 40-60 years, fellowship is sought out with a leader who may or may not be the best candidate for seeking advice on marriage.
Some of us who grew up in the local churches may have experienced what I have. There's the teaching of not dating before you're ready for marriage. How do you know when that time is? If you do feel you're at that time, how do you get to know someone of the opposite gender whether there's compatability or not? Often there's an invisible barrier if you say anything beyond the superficial greeting in passing, you may make the other person uncomfortable or you may raise eyebrows from certain brothers. What do you do? Seek fellowship from the brothers? There's an invisible obstacle and not knowing how to proceed. In my case I considered the social situation in my locality to be indifferent so I opened my mind beyond the local churches. I took the iniative and got to know a non-lc sister as a friend first and then marriage. Of course marriage was such a crucial decision, it needed countless hours of prayer; month after month. As it is now marriage of 11 years, a son of 9, and a daughter of 8.


Terry

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Terry

Don, you are speaking something that needs to be spoken. Regarding marriages, I believe at times there's too much credence given to what the leadership thinks of a particular spouse potential. I've been told from brothers in the past sister's they had a burden for was discouraged because the sister was considered too new to the churchlife or deemed too beautiful for the brother, etc. Instead of seeking out advice from a mature brother whose been married to the same sister for 40-60 years, fellowship is sought out with a leader who may or may not be the best candidate for seeking advice on marriage.
Some of us who grew up in the local churches may have experienced what I have. There's the teaching of not dating before you're ready for marriage. How do you know when that time is? If you do feel you're at that time, how do you get to know someone of the opposite gender whether there's compatability or not? Often there's an invisible barrier if you say anything beyond the superficial greeting in passing, you may make the other person uncomfortable or you may raise eyebrows from certain brothers. What do you do? Seek fellowship from the brothers? There's an invisible obstacle and not knowing how to proceed. In my case I considered the social situation in my locality to be indifferent so I opened my mind beyond the local churches. I took the iniative and got to know a non-lc sister as a friend first and then marriage. Of course marriage was such a crucial decision, it needed countless hours of prayer; month after month. As it is now marriage of 11 years, a son of 9, and a daughter of 8.


Terry

Question:

Where did this stuff you referred to come from? It was in Texas also. I did some of that awful fellowshiping about spouse potential. NOT GOOD. MY BAD. I only did it a couple of times but I feel like crawling into a hole even now.

It seemed like our culture regarding coutship, marriage and family was a strange amalgum of Chinese, Puritan and anti-modern. The elder, deacons and older sisters needed to seek the Lord for direction and knowledge regarding these matters and assist the young people not lord over them.

There was damage due to the church ignorance and to our not being able to receive ministry outside of WL.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[finallyprettyokay]

Terry:

What a beautiful story of how you and you wife were married. And in the pictures you so generously share with us -- what a beautiful family.

Family -- marriage, children --- are truly the most beautiful, best gift given to us --- the divorce rate is so sad. All those broken people, lost chances. In the past 3 or 4 years, my husband had his relationship restored with 3 grown children from a first marriage. It had broken his heart for years, and having them in his life again is God's gift to him. Imagine this -- NINE grandkids came with the package. Wow, huh?

It's hard to pick out the most obnoxious doctrines/practices of the LC, but the one about 'she is too beautiful for you' (or him for her) has got to be in the top 10. At least. How completely against everything God is, and that Jesus taught. Can you imagine that being part of the Sermon on the Mount? Blessed are the ones considered outwardly beautiful, for they shall inherit each other? Obnoxious and against God.


Terry, you have written that your parents were great, and believe me, brother -- it shows. It's written all over every post from you.


fpo

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Hope

The leadership in many places did not spend adequate time to get to know the members up close and personal. The leadership was often too heavenly minded to be of much earthly good.

Don Rutledge

The key word is in many places, not every place. Some leaders had or have full time jobs while others serve as full-timers. Each brother serving in aleadership capacity are each different.
I've known some who've worked full time and still have time for people. There were others likewise worked fulltime, but I never got to know them and they never got to know me.
About 5 years ago I read an article called In Wake of the New Way. In it's content was an excerpt of Witness Lee charging elders to contact brothers and sisters in their locality. There's time during the week for people to be contacted. What happened with the time?
There is time. It's a matter of elders or deacons taking the responsibility to contact households. In the local churches, is there a real care why someone suddenly stops meeting? Do elders or deacons take the time to find out what happened? Or is there a presumption that this brother or that sister is cold towards the ministry?
Two problems here is:
1. lack of contact
2. placing value on brothers and sisters based on how one gravitates to Witness Lee's ministry instead or caring for them as a member of the flock.

Terry

[Paul Cox]

Man, this thread moves so fast, I'm having a hard time keeping up. Gotta go to bed, but just wanted to say this:

I sorta appreciated the Local Church policy of no dating among the young people, and still do. I got the impression that most of the young ones were saved from falling into lust because of it.

However, I do not agree with arranged marriages, where one or more party really has reservations, but buries them to keep favor with "the brothers."

Buenos Noche
Roger

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Hope

I spent some time searching my memory about any and all divorces that occurred in Dallas from 1971 up until today. I came up with eleven.

Don,

I came up with a clear 10, and another that showed up at my mother's funeral with a different wife and no explanation (which he was not obligated to give). And I have had suspicions about a couple of others that I never heard anything about. At least a couple of the ones I know of happened years after we left but were married during our tenures in Dallas if not before. I know little concerning any marriages since.

Now I doubt there were some large number above that, but we are probably ignorant of a few. Still, that is not so terrible statistically. Spiritually, one is a tragedy. But in that number, there are a couple that really bothered me in terms of how it played out.

I also kept running into a brother at IBC that was in Dallas, as was his former wife. They married in OKC, then moved back to Irving later, and eventually divorced. (He has now moved to New Jersey.) They may be among BlessD's 14.