The LCS Factor

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Not to leave this interesting discussion of proper football fundamentals with Ohio behind, but...

Honestly, I think we in the LCs were more in love with the idea of Christ alone than we were with Christ alone. Sort of like the woman who is in love with the idea of being in love. We were in love with the idea of being pure and perfect more than we were in love with the pure and perfect One.

I mean, we always talked about Christ alone, but when push came to shove we never stood by it. Did we? Being one with the program always took precedent.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I mean, we always talked about Christ alone, but when push came to shove we never stood by it. Did we? Being one with the program always took precedent.

I s'pose it's easier to talk about football.


I haven't met another group of Christians who got this whole thing perfectly right either.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I s'pose it's easier to talk about football.


I haven't met another group of Christians who got this whole thing perfectly right either.

Because it's not a group thing, it's a personal thing.

[OBW]

TJ,

I think JPL is onto something. But I’m not sure it is truly the advance guard that runs into these crazy deceptions. I think it is those who are somewhere in between. It is believers who have moved beyond milk and have a little knowledge. They are seeking more, and do not yet have sufficient defenses against the wiles, traps, sugary words that sway them away from the truth before they have the spiritual strength gained from further spiritual growth. They may be willing to follow “at any cost” but have not truly counted the cost. In other words, there is an aspect of the cost that is actually away from Christ and is not taken into account because of the exuberant desire to follow something that looks so good. Most of the early Texas contingent would be in this group. Even by 1973, that is probably where I would put my family. There may have been some exceptions, but it seems mostly true from my limited knowledge. They surely were strong seekers of Christ, but they were not yet an “advance guard” with wisdom to see through the wiles of the enemy. Even the now-senior Texas member (and often pointed to as a leader) of the BBs was just an enthusiastic kid in the mid 60s. He was far from any “advance guard.”

I believe that the true advance guard will not be so easily fooled. That means that virtually everyone who came to the LC was somewhat less than advance guard. Some may have been closer, but they were still captured by the less obvious and then carried into what should have been more obvious. Or they were captured by the less obvious and then spent time trying to reconcile the discrepancies as aberrations that could be overlooked or explained away. This would be those few that we consider more like true advance guard. The John Ingalls types and other more seasoned Christian ministers who joined the LC with some spiritual weight already under their belt. One way or the other, many of those have seen the light. If you take into account the ones who are charting a modified course in the GLA and other places, there are few of the true “advance guard” remaining in the old-line LC.

I’m sure that someone can find a hole in this theory. It is just that. I see several places to pick it apart. But like a good metaphor, it only tells the part it tells. If we try to make it fit the entire situation, it will fail, or our account of the entire situation will be faulty (depending on whether we want to throw an incomplete metaphor out or presume that a metaphor tells it all and applies in all possible analogies).

Now if JPL simply meant "those burning for more of Christ" by the term advance guard, then I see her point a little better. In that case, "advance guard" does not suggest weight of experience and knowledge, but desire for more. We already know that those who do not desire more probably have no interest in the LC.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I’m sure that someone can find a hole in this theory.

Some have spoken their "concerns" in the past, but their voices were squelched. Hence those "concerns" never became known by the LC "rank and file." The "smear machine" took over to "silence" these voices. Due to fear, the concept of deputy authority, Christian honor, and other reasons, many have remained silent after they left.

It is the internet, invented by former VP Gore, that brought these few voices together.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by OBW

TJ,

I think JPL is onto something. But I’m not sure it is truly the advance guard that runs into these crazy deceptions. I think it is those who are somewhere in between. It is believers who have moved beyond milk and have a little knowledge. They are seeking more, and do not yet have sufficient defenses against the wiles, traps, sugary words that sway them away from the truth before they have the spiritual strength gained from further spiritual growth. They may be willing to follow “at any cost” but have not truly counted the cost. In other words, there is an aspect of the cost that is actually away from Christ and is not taken into account because of the exuberant desire to follow something that looks so good. Most of the early Texas contingent would be in this group. Even by 1973, that is probably where I would put my family. There may have been some exceptions, but it seems mostly true from my limited knowledge. They surely were strong seekers of Christ, but they were not yet an “advance guard” with wisdom to see through the wiles of the enemy. Even the now-senior Texas member (and often pointed to as a leader) of the BBs was just an enthusiastic kid in the mid 60s. He was far from any “advance guard.”

I believe that the true advance guard will not be so easily fooled. That means that virtually everyone who came to the LC was somewhat less than advance guard. Some may have been closer, but they were still captured by the less obvious and then carried into what should have been more obvious. Or they were captured by the less obvious and then spent time trying to reconcile the discrepancies as aberrations that could be overlooked or explained away. This would be those few that we consider more like true advance guard. The John Ingalls types and other more seasoned Christian ministers who joined the LC with some spiritual weight already under their belt. One way or the other, many of those have seen the light. If you take into account the ones who are charting a modified course in the GLA and other places, there are few of the true “advance guard” remaining in the old-line LC.

I’m sure that someone can find a hole in this theory. It is just that. I see several places to pick it apart. But like a good metaphor, it only tells the part it tells. If we try to make it fit the entire situation, it will fail, or our account of the entire situation will be faulty (depending on whether we want to throw an incomplete metaphor out or presume that a metaphor tells it all and applies in all possible analogies).

Now if JPL simply meant "those burning for more of Christ" by the term advance guard, then I see her point a little better. In that case, "advance guard" does not suggest weight of experience and knowledge, but desire for more. We already know that those who do not desire more probably have no interest in the LC.

Hi Mike,

This is the part that mentioned “advance guard”:

But there are others, who may be described as the advance guard of the Church of Christ, who have been baptized with the Holy Ghost, or who are seeking that Baptism; honest and earnest believers, who sigh and cry over the powerlessness of the true Church of Christ, and who grieve that her witness is so ineffective; that Spiritism and Christian Science, and other "isms," are sweeping thousands into their deceptive errors, little thinking, that, as they themselves go forward into the spiritual realm, the deceiver, who has misled others, has special wiles prepared for them, so that he might render ineffective their aggressive power against him.

This is the best explanation I can find of what JPL meant by advance guard. I don’t think she meant “advanced” referring to people who were spiritually mature, but meant something more like out front in the pursuit of God.

She’s not around any more, so we can’t ask her. I’m sure she never imagined such a thing as the internet and her words being discussed like this.
Anyway, I don’t make a lot out of words that some one uses only a time or two. I just try to get to the main thrust of what is being said. She seems to be saying that intense seekers and/or those with new fresh experiences of the Spirit need to be alert to the possibility of deception.

This happened with the Welsh revival, where many were saved powerfully and there were many visible evidences of the Holy Spirit working. This was followed by many counterfeit manifestations that brought in confusion and had bad effects on people … but that’s another story.

Thankful Jane

[OBW]

TJ,

I didn't remember JPL's contexts right off. But it almost sounds like what I mentioned. Strong salvations but not yet with significant depth.

Anyway, it was a reasonable spiritual and sociological (although she didn't think of it that way) analysis of some tendencies to get wrapped up in errors.

Thanks for the input.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I mean, we always talked about Christ alone, but when push came to shove we never stood by it. Did we? Being one with the program always took precedent.

Igzy,

You've got to stop quoting yourself.


SC

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Igzy,

You've got to stop quoting yourself.

SC

There, I quoted you this time.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Hope you wrote this: "The LC/LSM did not promote or permit any of the horrible social issues and sins that dj listed. There was no more than what you might find in society and among other Christian groups" a couple of posts after a lady wrote the 14 out 15 marriage ended in divorce in one year. I have news for you: that stat is out of the ball park.

One of the features of addictive family systems is they don't like "outsiders" knowing and discussing the issues they confront. But outsiders offer a valuable service - if nothing else a sense of objectivity and the non adherence to "sacred cows" or if you prefer: white elephants in the living room.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Hope you wrote this: "The LC/LSM did not promote or permit any of the horrible social issues and sins that dj listed. There was no more than what you might find in society and among other Christian groups" a couple of posts after a lady wrote the 14 out 15 marriage ended in divorce in one year. I have news for you: that stat is out of the ball park.

One of the features of addictive family systems is they don't like "outsiders" knowing and discussing the issues they confront. But outsiders offer a valuable service - if nothing else a sense of objectivity and the non adherence to "sacred cows" or if you prefer: white elephants in the living room.

Hey DJ, when you were serving in SoCal, what was your marriage / divorce "success" rate? How about some statistics?

You take a lot of "cheap shots" at brothers I appreciate. Did you play football for the Longhorns?

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Ohio I serve among evangelical Christians. Overall the divorce rate is 34%. But in the specific church I serve it is a much smaller number. Rarely is there a divorce. However the general stat is a huge concern. We are not not sure what factor the church plays in this stat. Evangelicals tend to provide considerable teaching and resources and activities including counseling on marriage. We are asking: as a whole are we doing something wrong and if so what is it?

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Hope I have said it before and I say it again: I don't care what you believe about me.

You are right the lady said they were married in the same year not divorced in the same year.

If you believe there is a cause and effect relationship between what I listed in my opening thread and the LCS what is that relationship?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Ohio I serve among evangelical Christians. Overall the divorce rate is 34%. But in the specific church I serve it is a much smaller number. Rarely is there a divorce. However the general stat is a huge concern. We are not not sure what factor the church plays in this stat. Evangelicals tend to provide considerable teaching and resources and activities including counseling on marriage. We are asking: as a whole are we doing something wrong and if so what is it?

I notice that you didn't mention "the past" ... the time when you learned so much about WL, LSM, and the LC's.

DJ, I just don't like it when anyone takes "cheap shots" at another brother's integrity. As long as we agree on this, we'll get along just fine ... and for the most part ... we have.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Hope you wrote this: "The LC/LSM did not promote or permit any of the horrible social issues and sins that dj listed. There was no more than what you might find in society and among other Christian groups" a couple of posts after a lady wrote the 14 out 15 marriage ended in divorce in one year. I have news for you: that stat is out of the ball park.

One of the features of addictive family systems is they don't like "outsiders" knowing and discussing the issues they confront. But outsiders offer a valuable service - if nothing else a sense of objectivity and the non adherence to "sacred cows" or if you prefer: white elephants in the living room.

Could you answer my question regarding where I claimed there was no relationship between the LCS and the problems in the families? See my previous post for the exact quote from your post.

I believe the sister from OK City said that of the marriages from the year 1980 or 81 eventually 14 ended in divorce. She did not say the divorces occurred in one year. But again what does a little accuracy or exact information matter?

Do you really believe we should think of you as an outsider who brings a sense of objectivity. You had to mean that tongue in cheek. Great sence of humor. I got a good laugh.


Don Rutledge

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Hope

Could you answer my question regarding where I claimed there was no relationship between the LCS and the problems in the families? See my previous post for the exact quote from your post.

I believe the sister from OK City said that of the marriages from the year 1980 or 81 eventually 14 ended in divorce. She did not say the divorces occurred in one year. But again what does a little accuracy or exact information matter?

Do you really believe we should think of you as an outsider who brings a sense of objectivity. You had to mean that tongue in cheek. Great sence of humor. I got a good laugh.


Don Rutledge

We had a period around 1980 where there was an "epidimic" of marriages. I said 15 because there was about 1 a month and a few months that year there were 2 a month - thus 15. Almost all my friends from college married during this period of time.

The divorces I spoke about occured over decades - not in the same year.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Hope you wrote this: "The LC/LSM did not promote or permit any of the horrible social issues and sins that dj listed. There was no more than what you might find in society and among other Christian groups" a couple of posts after a lady wrote the 14 out 15 marriage ended in divorce in one year. I have news for you: that stat is out of the ball park.

Hope and BlessD have said repeatedly that OKC operated under leadership by "extremists," who put the "program" far ahead of people. The results can be witnessed by the failure of marriages. This is a clear, present day example of "lording it over" the flock. It was just one of many N.T. concepts that WL nearly never mentioned ... far more pertinent to God's children than his teachings on "leprosy and quarantines." It would have been exceedingly good if many LC's became aware of what this verse meant, and would have been spared from many leadership abuses.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Ohio I learn more and more about the LCS almost on a weekly basis. If I have questions I go to those I know who use to be there and simply ask them. It's really a simple process.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Ohio from what I have read from you and others on this forum the LCS to this day is run my extremists. Consider what happened to Peter's dad in Cleveland - a professional educator and founder of two Christian schools no less.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hope and BlessD have said repeatedly that OKC operated under leadership by "extremists," who put the "program" far ahead of people. The results can be witnessed by the failure of marriages. This is a clear, present day example of "lording it over" the flock. It was just one of many N.T. concepts that WL nearly never mentioned ... far more pertinent to God's children than his teachings on "leprosy and quarantines." It would have been exceedingly good if many LC's became aware of what this verse meant, and would have been spared from many leadership abuses.

Ohio, since OKC has been brought up let's use this place as a case. Suppose there's a brother who at one time is very active in the prophesying meeting, then he becomes dormant for a period of time and maybe draws away from the meetings because of the "extremists". Or it could have been the "lording over" that led to a period of dormancy. He and his wife relocate to another part of the country and become active in prophesying meetings once again. Sometimes relocation can be good for a person or persons to go on. It may be pure speculation on my part, but sometimes "lording it over" can cause one to be discouraged and dormant. OKC was only a case. There are other places this example could be applied to.

Terry