The LCS Factor

[OBW]

Matt,

I was not suggesting that it was necessarily off topic. I had my own thoughts both ways. I have had even more thoughts since then.

Actually, I think that idolatry is probably a very real issue. There might also be other issues. But as part of my further thoughts on the issue, I'm beginning to wonder if throwing the term "idolatry" around might be sort of like my tendency to throw the "C" word around.

I'm not saying that either is not true, but that idolatry is a term that, no matter how we show it to mean more than bowing to a graven image, it has charged meanings that differ among the various people participating and lurking here.

The real issue is in the make-up of the fact that we call idolatry. It is in the expanded definitions. It is about the heart and intent. It is about what comes first (and who's on second).

At some level, the only thing we clearly know is the fruit of the tree. We can point to certain things and think that maybe the issue is the soil, or the water, or a need for fertilizer. But the thing that clearly marks the tree is the fruit.

There are ways to sweep ambition, misguided following, closed-minded dogma, and much more into "idolatry." I'm not sure that it helps the conversation. Instead, it sweeps us into a frenzy.

Now we need the energy of that frenzy at times, but what does collecting a lot of symptoms into a label do? It will alienate those who ride the fence or are still quite “in” the LC but are open to consider.

Rather than talk about idolatry, we can talk about specific instances of LC abuse. For example, Benson has essentially said that he is proud of his actions relating to Jane. He says he did it for the church. When I look at the things he did then, I would have to ask myself, “what kind of church needs this kind of bullying to protect it and would tolerate such a person as one of its primary leaders?” That is clear. We have observed the fruit and can honestly question the source even if we do not know the details about it. Since the examples are coming out of the woodwork, can we let them speak of the fruit of a bad tree? We can separately (different thread?) discuss the fullness of what we believe is the problem with the tree (idolatry, among others).

This is not a complaint about the actual content of the idolatry discussion. It is an opinion about this thread which began as “what role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?” We’ve seen Benson’s role in some cases. A couple of them have been heralded strongly. We are now seeing a few others. I expect there to be more. Some will be stronger than others. Some will border on uncertainty about how clearly the LC was responsible. I think if you look at what I wrote to BlessD about myself you can see that the LC played a big part, although not as clearly as it did for her.

Is it necessary that within this thread we figure out what spiritual label to put on these evil doers? Is allowing the evidence of the various ones who were actually affected by the LC without distraction from other things worthwhile? Might a separation of the “why” discussion from the “how it played out” discussion be useful?

Just some honest questions. (BTW. If you are up on Meyers-Briggs personality types, look up INTP. It says volumes about the way I stick myself into these kinds of things. It also tells why I don’t always understand why others complain sometimes. No excuse — just what I’m dealing with.)

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by OBW

Actually, I think that idolatry is probably a very real issue. There might also be other issues. But as part of my further thoughts on the issue, I'm beginning to wonder if throwing the term "idolatry" around might be sort of like my tendency to throw the "C" word around.

I understood most of what you were saying in your post. The one distinction I think should be drawn between "idolatry" and the "C" word is that the "cult" word is just a label that is a noun.

Idolatry is a specific act of sinfulness described by the Word of God that our behavior can be measured against. I used the Benson example because it was so extreme and clear. I think there are lesser examples that still have application, but it is left to the reader to approach the Lord for their own part. I'm pointing at the Word (with some level of implication) on this subject of idolatry. Without seeing and understanding it, it can be just another label, like the "cult" word.

It's been a 17 year journey for my eyes to slowly open to see it more clearly in my own life. As the light shines, I'm getting better focus on it. It's another one of those things that even with all my good efforts, I can't really get it right apart from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Psa 19:1-14 For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament showeth his handiwork. (2) Day unto day uttereth speech, And night unto night showeth knowledge. (3) There is no speech nor language; Their voice is not heard. (4) Their line is gone out through all the earth, And their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, (5) Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, And rejoiceth as a strong man to run his course. (6) His going forth is from the end of the heavens, And his circuit unto the ends of it; And there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. (7) The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring the soul: The testimony of Jehovah is sure, making wise the simple. (8) The precepts of Jehovah are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of Jehovah is pure, enlightening the eyes. (9) The fear of Jehovah is clean, enduring for ever: The ordinances of Jehovah are true, and righteous altogether. (10) More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the droppings of the honeycomb. (11) Moreover by them is thy servant warned: In keeping them there is great reward. (12) Who can discern his errors? Clear thou me from hidden faults. (13) Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; Let them not have dominion over me: Then shall I be upright, And I shall be clear from great transgression. (14) Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in thy sight, O Jehovah, my rock, and my redeemer.

Matt

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Matt

I understood most of what you were saying in your post. The one distinction I think should be drawn between "idolatry" and the "C" word is that the "cult" word is just a label that is a noun.

Idolatry is a specific act of sinfulness described by the Word of God that our behavior can be measured against.

And I agree. But even when you take it to the action level, it is still a label, albeit of an action. It is also a state of being of the heart. For that reason, the limits of its reach could be enormous. But discussing idolatry does not demonstrate how the LC played a role in the development of behaviors. It is trying to find out why the LC played a role.

I am not disparaging the actual discussion. I think that the how and the why should be separated. Let the two carry on separately. Here is why I think that separation is worthwhile:

I think this may have been one of the problems with the little fiasco of the past couple of days. The original issue was how. But even the originator of the thread started trying to answer why. And Don stepped in provided examples of how he tried to avoid those things. We now have three topics going on simultaneously; how (with examples), why (with analysis and accusations), and how not (also with examples). In hindsight, no matter where it started, it begins to seem that each person saw the whole of the thread in terms of the angle they were addressing (how, why, why not, how not) and not reading others within their proper contexts. When “why” is read as “how,” it suddenly says something different than was intended. We all got caught up in it. We brought BlessD into the mix and seemed to be disparaging her account, although I do not believe that was ever intended. I eventually saw certain things. I may think I was clear on some of them, but I probably was not on all, and maybe none.

I read people on both sides who quoted the person with whom they were disagreeing and then read their characterization and wondered if it was entirely fair and accurate. I did not keep notes on specifics, but I could go back in and find some. I would rather not. We all would probably be embarrassed at some level — including me.

That leads me to question whether we are doing ourselves a favor to continue to have two different aspects of one thing discussed at the same time when we have already seen an example of what can go wrong. Yes, we could try to be more careful. But it may not be worth the risk.

I know I could be beating a dead horse. It is still just an opinion. If you understand my concern and still disagree, I’m quite OK with it. I just want to be sure you understand my concern.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by OBW

Actually, I think that idolatry is probably a very real issue. There might also be other issues. But as part of my further thoughts on the issue, I'm beginning to wonder if throwing the term "idolatry" around might be sort of like my tendency to throw the "C" word around.

Mike,

Yes, we must take care. The term "idolatry" as defined by individual Christians, can eventually be used to exclude everyone. Sometimes it almost seems that idolatry is in the eyes of the beholder.

There are dear brothers and sisters in the Living Stream Church who don't have the slightest clue that they are engaging in idolatry. And you know what? If in their hearts they don't know it, then the Lord will ultimately only judge them according to what they know in their hearts.

So, I guess you are right Mike. We must be careful how we sling words around. Did I say that? Guess I did.

I think it's important to expose the problems, while at the same time know how to preserve those who are innocently following.

Roger

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Roger

So, I guess you are right Mike. We must be careful how we sling words around. Did I say that? Guess I did.

Yep, and so should I. I know I gave you an earful recently. I've had terrible misgivings over it even though I felt so strongly justified at the time.

(I had privately told Pat that he had just stepped lower than I had ever seen him go. I told him to count to ten, take his wife to dinner, go to a meeting. Then I turned around and lambasted you in public. Go figure. Some phrase about pots and kettles comes to mind.) (That smilie will have to do. There isn't a red-faced embarrased, sheepish look guy in there to pick from.)