A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

But if we are sojourners in this world, how is it that the laws of this passing world are so strongly on our radar that we drop almost everything else to go after them?

What we are so heavenly that we are of no earthly good? We see lies and deceit and just keep quiet? My experience with WL, WN, PL, etc. is that you do not ignore lies and deceit. You have to challenge it head on. Churchill said that in a democracy the people get the government they deserve. The constitution guarantees the right to free speech, the flip side is we cannot shirk our responsibility as citizens by saying "what could I do". You were given the right to speak up. If you keep silent you are without excuse.

[Cal]

ZNP,

I'm afraid I had to move most of your post to the closed Abortion thread. Let's not make this discussion about abortion specifically. The issue is about how in general Christians should engage themselves in affecting the laws of the country they live in.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

ZNP,

I'm afraid I had to move most of your post to the closed Abortion thread. Let's not make this discussion about abortion specifically. The issue is about how in general Christians should engage themselves in affecting the laws of the country they live in.

I think this is a matter of the "word of righteousness" that is mentioned in Hebrews. I see no reason why the way in which Christians should engage in affecting the laws should be considered a priestly service after the order of Melchisedec. I understand the feeling that it shouldn't be after the order of Aaron, that is fine. But Melchisedec does not have any similar affiliation. Likewise if Jesus was made a priest after the order of Melchisedec I see no reason why we can't follow after Him.

Hebrews
5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[Cal]

In a democracy, focused minorities (special interests) often trump a blasé majority. This is why we get things like the wool and mohair subsidy on the books for decades. Although it greatly benefited sheep and goat raisers, it was not worth the 30 cents saved in per capita annual taxes (or whatever small amount went to the subsidy) for the average citizen to raise a ruckus about it. There's nothing insidious about that. It's just the nature of democracies.

But it was a case of the majority being too uninterested to do anything about a law they didn't like. Eventually, however, the majority will stand up to laws pressed by dedicated minorities when those laws become sufficiently objectionable. This is what would happen with any untoward "Christian" laws a minority might get enacted. The rest would be tolerated, simply because the majority isn't bothered enough by them. To the victor goes the spoils. So if you don't like the laws, work to to get them changed. But let's stop the nonsense about "forcing" laws on others. All laws are forced on others, right down to banning single-use plastic bags.

BTW, the wool and mohair subsidy was phased out in 1995, having become the poster child of wasteful government spending.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

In a democracy, focused minorities (special interests) often trump a blasé majority. This is why we get things like the wool and mohair subsidy on the books for decades. Although it greatly benefited sheep and goat raisers, it was not worth the 30 cents saved in per capita annual taxes (or whatever small amount went to the subsidy) for the average citizen to raise a ruckus about it. There's nothing insidious about that. It's just the nature of democracies.

But it was a case of the majority being too uninterested to do anything about a law they didn't like. Eventually, however, the majority will stand up to laws pressed by dedicated minorities when those laws become sufficiently objectionable. This is what would happen with any untoward "Christian" laws a minority might get enacted. The rest would be tolerated, simply because the majority isn't bothered enough by them. To the victor goes the spoils. So if you don't like the laws, work to to get them changed. But let's stop the nonsense about "forcing" laws on others. All laws are forced on others, right down to banning single-use plastic bags.

BTW, the wool and mohair subsidy was phased out in 1995, having become the poster child of wasteful government spending.

But how would a Christian minority focused on an objectionable law work? Should you treat this labor as a "ministry" or as "community service"? According to the NT what did Jesus, Paul, James, etc. speak on our involvement in the community at large? Is this a distraction from our heavenly calling or is this part of our heavenly calling?

Many on this forum feel that the teachings in the LRC were designed to create an isolated group from society and were self serving in teaching they didn't need to care for the poor, or the widows, or the fatherless. However, we don't want the pendulum to swing to the other extreme that our ministry is indistinguishable from worldly foundations like the YMCA, etc.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What we are so heavenly that we are of no earthly good? We see lies and deceit and just keep quiet? My experience with WL, WN, PL, etc. is that you do not ignore lies and deceit. You have to challenge it head on. Churchill said that in a democracy the people get the government they deserve. The constitution guarantees the right to free speech, the flip side is we cannot shirk our responsibility as citizens by saying "what could I do". You were given the right to speak up. If you keep silent you are without excuse.

And while I made that specific statement, I have also said that I am not opposing political activity on our part. And I do not oppose acknowledging our Christian heritage and perspective as we do that.

The problem is how that is done. If our lives affect enough others that we change the face of the nation, then maybe there will be a change in the laws and other societal landscape. But that is the outgrowth of our living the gospel, not politicking for stronger laws. The difference seems to be lost on too many people. For a movement of Christians to start to push, even demand, more "moral" laws (from the Christian perspective) places the very core of the church into the realm of politics. While we do not desire the kind of marriage of church and state that our founders sought to free themselves from, we seem to be determined to obtain the benefit of having it anyway. When that happens how do you assert that we are not simply in bed with the government and find that people who are on the outside are exactly like the Pilgrims.

We may not take it as far as they did in England, or in Rome or Constantinople, but we are dancing around the same error. Becoming the "in power" religion that is able to execute God's rules on those who do not claim to follow our God.

What shall we do about those who would mock our religion in the media? Who would argue for the freedom to stop at the numerous appointed times during the school day to pray to Mecca?

And, picking back on an issue that is now banned here and in the other (locked) thread (but only as an example), how do we deal with the legitimate exceptions on abortion, especially where one or the other is almost certainly to die? Do we just leave it for the natural outcome to decide and punish those who refuse to wait for that? In other words, do we want laws that favor us and our heritage and our religion and disfavor those of others, with the result that we create a sort of Religious state?

Stop suggesting that I do not get involved in politics in any way, or that I am insisting on such a thing. I am not. I am merely pointing to a different approach to it. One that is not concerned with my "rights" but with the will of God which is concerned with the salvation of mankind, not the subjugation of it to well-meaning religious masters.