Witness Lee has Seven Gods

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I would like to show how George Lucas... is actually representative of "gospel hucksters" who merchandise the gospel.

Of course my writing is actually the opposite of what I elsewhere called good and desirable -- scholarship. I opined that scholars would put forth an idea, a proposal: say, that "A is somehow related to B". The scholar will present this conjecture, displaying possible dependent relationships between two variables. He/she uses readily observable and commonly agreed-upon facts to demonstrate a "correlation" between two different things.

However, I didn't unoquivocally link with Mr. Lucas with an evil Trade Federation; I just pointed a possible linkage, in that his $4 Billion buyout by Walt Disney Co. shows that rich merchants somewhere were quite pleased with his wares. Nor can I prove that Living Stream Ministry's 2002 entry into the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association, nor its 20003 "dialog" with CRI which led to its eventual rehabilitation of and by them, was the equivalent of their joining the Dark Side (or that it demonstrated them having already done so).

No -- I merely point out these facts, along with the interesting coincidence in Revelation 13 of worship (v.15) joined with a kind of copyright "mark" (v.16), and linked to control of buying and selling (v.17). I already noted the detailed descriptions of merchandising in Ezekiel 27 & 28 and its culmination in Revelation 18.

Originally Posted by aron

The key is in the money changing hands... something like: "You will benefit from your helping me to prosper materially"... [and then] the gospel story becomes a monetized product, which can be exchanged for a bowl of soup, Esau-like...The marketplace seems to be spreading the truth, but the spreading-for-cash process ultimately subsumes the truth...

My sense was that cash exchanged for the gospel seems to use the market forces to spread gospel truth, but actually the market subsumes it. The gospel message becomes just another product on eBay or Amazon or Wall-Mart. So the 'relational' hypothesis might be: A seems to be using B, but really B is co-opting A. Light seems to be overcoming darkness, but darkness is actually infiltrating the gospel light. And when the light turns to darkness, how great is the darkness! (See, e.g. Anakin Skywalker).

In fairness, pointing out weaknesses/alternatives, I will say that Jesus got money & material support from His followers; see e.g. Luke 8:3. Paul quoted Deuteronomy 25 in about not muzzling the threshing ox in 1 Cor. 9:9. Multiple times in the NT record (Acts and Epistles) Paul collected money for the poor. In Acts 5 Peter received sums of cash from disciples, laid at his feet.

But none of this was quid-pro-quo, like Simon Magus, like "my-ministry-for-your-money", especially in the realm of merchandise (books, tapes, CDs, videos, magazines, pamphlets, booklets, calendars, coffee mugs, etc). In such an environment, the Holy Spirit, once given without measure, and given "without money and without price", is replaced by a thing, which is sold. And the "truth" becomes a number attached to a dollar sign.

But all this really proves nothing. This is what I see. What such observed phenomena might mean, ultimately, to and for the collective ekklesia I have no way of knowing. But this is what I see.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

My sense was that cash exchanged for the gospel seems to use the market forces to spread gospel truth, but actually the market subsumes [the gospel message].

Any researcher wants to get many data points; this will better "prove" whether the proposed hypothesis is correct or not. My original hypothesis was kind of messy, so I'll try to prune it here, and provide some more data.

Data points:

1. Paul converted the truth of the gospel message into objects, called letters, and they were distributed among the churches. Paul told the Colossians, "See that you send this letter to the church in Laodicea, and read the one I sent to them." Eventually people will pay money for the letters, to cover the cost of paper, printing and distribution. Not evil in and of itself.

2. I buy christian books and CDs on the marketplace. Not bothersome to my conscience.

3. Not everyone that wrote a book about Christ or sang a song praising God is a money-grubber. Most times it's the opposite.

3. On the other hand, you have "Gospel hucksters" out there, just trying to make a million or three. One example is a guy named Jim Bakker. He was an earnest young preacher from Muskegon, Michigan, who fell into the lucrative televangelism gig. I saw a clip of him telling viewers if they sent something like several hundred dollars they would get a souvenir stuffed animal. He started a christian theme park and told people if they "invested" thousands of dollars they would have a permanent time-share condo on this place. Eventually he got convicted of fraud and went to jail. Another huckster, Jerry Falwell, took over his television satellite. The PTL Ministry's "Heritage USA Theme Park" is now a ruin, a home for owls and jackals.

But Jim Bakker is still at it. He's hooked on the art of easy money. It's like a drug. Loot at this:

http://jimbakkershow.com/lovegifts/i-care-club-ii.html

It's like heroin. He just can't let go of the hucksterism business.

4. So, Witness Lee -- Gospel huckster or no?
A. Left the Far east in the late 50s early 60s to get away from angry 'investors'... sound familiar? Sold tennis rackets, plastic chairs, men's suits, World's Fair, Seattle 1962. I don't know the details, maybe someone else can provide them.
B. Daystar. Took saints' money, set up a motor home business with son Timothy as head. A disaster. Advertising had christian 'sisters' from the local church posing in skimpy outfits. A lot of 'investors' from the local churches lost quite a bit of money. 'Training fees' were then established at LSM conferences to raise money to pay off angry investors. If you don't believe me read the story.
C. Placing admittedly 'nonspiritual' son Philip as head of his publishing company, Living Stream Ministry. Lee said "It's a business", in defense of this move. This son caused a lot of problems, was repeatedly caught molesting the help, and was eventually removed. Again, it's well-documented.
D. Instead of repenting when this was exposed, Lee became the untouchable 'apostle of the age', who must be 'covered' like the drunken Noah so that discussion of any wrong-doing became verboten. Anyone who opened their mouth was 'rebellious'.
E. Consolidation and complete control of merchandising: "One Publication Policy" and "One Trumpet". News flash, folks: our one trumpet is called the Bible.

So my hypothesis is that Lee was a Gospel huckster. He got caught in the Far East selling snake oil, came to the U.S.A. and repeated his business, with better results. Even when he got burned with Daystar and Philip Lee he managed to keep his empire, by purging any unwelcome voices of critique and setting himself up as "God's oracle."

And Lee's opinion, and his rudimentary scholarship, became the equivalent of "the teaching and fellowship of the apostles", available online or at your local bookstore. Catalogs are also available.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

On the other hand, you have "Gospel hucksters" out there, just trying to make a million or three. One example is a guy named Jim Bakker. He was an earnest young preacher from Muskegon, Michigan, who fell into the lucrative televangelism gig .... But Jim Bakker is still at it. He's hooked on the easy money. It's like a drug.

So I conclude that Lee was a Gospel huckster. He got caught in the Far East selling snake oil, came to the U.S.A. and repeated his business. Even when he got burned with Daystar and Philip Lee he managed to keep his empire, by purging any unwelcome voices of critique and setting himself up as "God's oracle."

I remember when the Jim and Tammy Faye scandal hit the fan back in the Spring of 1987. I was on a jumbo airliner with many other brothers crossing the Pacific to participate in the Lord's move in Taipei, the evangelization of the island of Taiwan, the beachhead of the whole inhabited earth.

Some of us then discussed how "this ministry" had kept itself pure, thus preserving the "recovered" word of God as food for the whole world, as Joseph did in Egypt of old. Little did I know that at that very moment, Philip Lee was actively molesting the volunteer help and bullying LC leaders around the globe. Neither did I know about about a long trail of "angry investors" which were left in Lee's wake.

How naive I was. Just like Jim Bakker recycling old con games, we too believed all the lies.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Sold tennis rackets, plastic chairs, men's suits, World's Fair, Seattle 1962. I don't know the details, maybe someone else can provide them.

My understanding is the tennis rackets and the plastic chairs came much later. It was the suits that were sold at the World's Fair in 1962. I had read in an email or in a post from another forum that Elden Hall was later used as storage for some of the suits that didn't sell.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

...I had read in an email or in a post from another forum that Elden Hall was later used as storage for some of the suits that didn't sell.

I am also vague on the details. Besides the World's Fair thing, I remember reading that some local church meeting halls got plied with chairs from an unsuccessful business venture.

Two (hopefully final) points: one is the idea of apostasy. Apostasy, as I see it, is with someone who is not heretical, and has the basics of the faith. You look at their "confession", and it seems orthodox, maybe even quite orthodox.But there is a long trail of evidence that something just isn't right. They confessed the faith, but eventually they got sidetracked by something. Power, money, fame, ego, control; whatever.

So I believe I am possibly looking at apostasy here. All the theological "i's" are dotted and "t's" are crossed, but there is also a long and unmistakable trail of wreckage. The fruit is testifying as well as the "What we believe" statements. All those "storms" and "rebellions" are lined up, and "speaking in one accord".

Second point is what Jesus said to Peter at the end of John's gospel: "They are going to bind you and take you somewhere you don't want to go." Lee maybe repented of his earlier Oriental failures, and tried to serve the Lord. Then one day in the U.S., a brother came up with an sizeable inheritance, and tried to lay it at Witness Lee's feet, and suddenly "Daystar" was born.

It was like a bank robber that got caught, and did the prison time, and was restored, and one day he walks by a bank and looks over and says, "Wow. Look at all that money and their security is terrible! What an easy mark..." and he begins to think, and he gets taken somewhere he doesn't want to go.

Like a dog returning to his vomit, like a sow going back to the mud; Lee got the potential for easy money placed before him and he couldn't resist. The Gospel Huckster was reborn, and he got taken somewhere he didn't plan on going.

Same with me. I did my time in the Local Church system. I got taken somewhere I didn't want to go. So I accept it. It is part of my journey. It was a lesson I needed to learn. I thank the Lord for all of my experiences.

[OBW]

I think that both the chairs and tennis rackets were attempts to make something besides motor homes in the plant they set up for Daystar. As you recall, the sales company went belly-up (that is the part the members were invested in) while the plant made some money and survived (the part that Lee was invested in).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I am also vague on the details. Besides the World's Fair thing, I remember reading that some local church meeting halls got plied with chairs from an unsuccessful business venture.

Two (hopefully final) points: one is the idea of apostasy. Apostasy, as I see it, is with someone who is not heretical, and has the basics of the faith. You look at their "confession", and it seems orthodox, maybe even quite orthodox.

But something isn't right. There is a long trail of stuff that just isn't right. They confessed the faith, but eventually they got sidetracked by something. Power, money, whatever. So I believe I am looking at apostasy here. All the "i's" are dotted and "t's" are crossed, but there is a long trail of wreckage there. The fruit is testifying as well as the "What we believe" statements. All those "storms" and "rebellions".

First. WL bought a myriad of chairs from Taiwan. That's 10,000 total. He told TC, "you just bought a thousand chairs." TC called my elder in Columbus, "you just bought a hundred chairs." The elder called me up, "go to Cleveland and get our new chairs." Then I spent the next 5 years gluing and screwing those junky particle board chairs back together so we had a place to sit.

Second. Great points about having orthodox confessions and unorthodox behaviors. This is why I place great responsibility on the leadership code of ethics, and pay little regard for statements of faith. WL and his team of editors at LSM took great pains to publish book after book, attending to every jot and tittle, but when it came to keeping an eye on their illustrious "Office Manager," they were all like Tommy, that "deaf, dumb, and blind kid."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

WL bought a myriad of chairs from Taiwan. That's 10,000 total. He told TC, "you just bought a thousand chairs." TC called my elder in Columbus, "you just bought a hundred chairs." The elder called me up, "go to Cleveland and get our new chairs." Then I spent the next 5 years gluing and screwing those junky particle board chairs back together so we had a place to sit.

Now that, my friend, is a funny story. This was exactly what I was referencing when I talked about being bound and taken somewhere that you didn't want to go.

Peter was too cool for school, so he went fishing. Jesus told him where his journey was going to take him (John 21:18). Lee was too cool for christianity, and he convinced us that he had found a shortcut. Remember that song with the refrain "We love the church life" -- the line that said "It may be that you willl find with us a better way." How we all congratulated ourselves that we had found a better way, a shortcut to the throne! But eventually we realized that actually we had been bound, and taken somewhere that we didn't want to go.

Ohio, I totally love that story. Thanks for sharing. You made my day.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Now that, my friend, is a funny story. This was exactly what I was referencing when I talked about being bound and taken somewhere that you didn't want to go.

Peter was too cool for school, so he went fishing. Jesus told him where his journey was going to take him (John 21:18). Lee was too cool for christianity, and he convinced us that he had found a shortcut. Remember that song with the refrain "We love the church life" -- the line that said "It may be that you willl find with us a better way." How we all congratulated ourselves that we had found a better way, a shortcut to the throne! But eventually we realized that actually we had been bound, and taken somewhere that we didn't want to go.

Ohio, I totally love that story. Thanks for sharing. You made my day.

I never thought anything about those ugly gold chairs was funny. The backs of those chairs started falling apart right away. I remember finding some old syringes at work, and bought some messy two-part epoxy. We got an assembly line going with the saints, first disassembly, next injecting epoxy into the elongated hole of the particle board back and clamping it together, then reinsert larger screws and pray for the best.

I was actually proud of my efforts to salvage that junk. When I visited other LC's with those same chairs, theirs were the worse for wear, but with my improvements, they outlasted every other church. That's when I found out that some other LC's updated their chairs with soft comfy cushions. Cleveland's were nice, but Akron's were the best, and we were still sitting on particle board.

I should have let them fall apart.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

First. WL bought a myriad of chairs from Taiwan. That's 10,000 total. He told TC, "you just bought a thousand chairs." TC called my elder in Columbus, "you just bought a hundred chairs." The elder called me up, "go to Cleveland and get our new chairs." Then I spent the next 5 years gluing and screwing those junky particle board chairs back together so we had a place to sit.

Would these be those gold colored inter-locking chair that became standard furniture for any localities meetings? If so, the chairs were bought with the intent localities would be billed for the chairs. Local churches would have new chairs and Lee's investment in (Overseas Christian Stewards?) would make a profit.

In my employer's ethics training this scenario is considered a conflict of interest. The alternative would be to have purchased chairs from another vendor.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Would these be those gold colored inter-locking chair that became standard furniture for any localities meetings? If so, the chairs were bought with the intent localities would be billed for the chairs. Local churches would have new chairs and Lee's investment in (Overseas Christian Stewards?) would make a profit.

That would be them.

I guess at the time I was naive enough to think that WL bought a large quantity to get a better price. Little did I know that he took a commission too.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Data points:

1. Paul converted the truth of the gospel message into objects, called letters, which were distributed among the churches. Paul told the Colossians, "See that you send this letter to the church in Laodicea, and read the one I sent to them." Eventually people will pay money... to cover the cost of paper, printing and distribution.

2. I buy christian books and CDs on the marketplace. Not bothersome to my conscience.

3. Not everyone that wrote a book about Christ or sang a song praising God is a money-grubber. Most times it's the opposite.

Continuing these thoughts: maybe what really spells doom for the centralized, command-and-control models honed by the likes of the Living Stream Ministry is that the cost of disseminating information is nearing zero. Think how hard it was to copy the Bible before Gutenberg! When Lee came to the U.S. and started the Living Stream Ministry in the 1960s and 70s the printing press was still king. Now with computers and the internet and a printer in every home and public library, information is easily available.

So an attempt to copyright and control not only the Word of God but even commentary about the Word a futile quest. Even the RCC lets its parishioners write, and publish! The LSM model does not stand a chance. The more they try to bind people, the more people will struggle free. The "one trumpet" idea is just a last gasp from Babel. Me, me, me... ten thousand people each standing there, holding a brick or a bucket of cement, speaking and unable to hear or understand anyone else.

Contrast that with the "many counselors" in the OT and the "many waters" in the NT, who with one voice point out the same reality of God.

Put it another way: if the cost of information transmission is virtually nothing, what right do I have asking for money in return for my information? "Freely have ye received; freely give."

This is my last post; I shall not write any more. Thanks to this site for hosting my comments. Thanks to all writers for their feedback. My apologies to all, especially Living Streamers, who've been offended by my often confident speculations. I had a lot of fun and hopefully some of my enjoyment spread around. Peace.