The Psalms are the word of Christ

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

... did you ever notice in the NT (in Hebrews, or the Gospels, for example) that the Son was speaking to the Father using the words of what they called 'scriptures' and we call "The Old Testament"? Did you ever consider that the words in the Psalms are perhaps not only fallen man's words directed at or towards Jehovah and/or His Christ, but also Christ the Son's words to His Father? That perhaps Paul saying "the word of Christ" is not our word about, or regarding Christ, but rather Christ's word about, or regarding His Father? That it really is the Son, in the midst of the assembly of the redeemed, speaking and singing words of praise to His Father and our Father, to His God and our God(Heb. 2:12; John 20:17)?

Look at Psalm 86 for example. It gets one footnote from Lee. "David is trying to save himself. But God is after something bigger than David. God is after Christ". Lee doesn't say David's prayer is vain, but he implies it.

But just put that prayer into the mouth of the man Jesus. Who was faithful, and trusted in God (v.2)? Jesus. Who cried in distress and got answered (v.7)? Jesus. Who knew the ways of Jehovah; who had an undivided heart; who feared the Father's name (v. 11)? The man Jesus.

Enough said. I could go on, verse by verse. But the point is that arguably Jesus Christ is quite present in Psalm 86. Lee ignores the possibility.

[aron]

Hebrews presents a remarkable window into the Psalms as an engine of revelation. The Psalms show us an intimate portrait of a Man on earth in relation to His God in heaven. The Gospels show us the miracles, the effect of the relationship. Psalms shows us the relationship. And the epistle to the Hebrews gives us a Christian view into the Psalms through its repeated use of them.

For example, look at Hebrews 5:7 "During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission." Where in the Gospels do you see "fervent cries and tears" so vividly portrayed? You do see fervent prayers in the garden of Gethsemene, but little else. But try a search of the Psalms and you will see citation after citation. "I cried all night to my God"; "My pillow became wet with my tears"; "streams of tears flowed from my eyes", etc.

[aron]

Psalm 119:115 Away from me, you evildoers, that I may keep the commands of my God!

Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"

(All quotes NIV)

Now, do you think that Psalm 119:115 at least deserves a cross reference, if not a footnote? If you go to the RecV Psalm 119 there are pages of text with no footnotes. WL at least recognizes, in a few introductory footnotes of this psalm that its writer had a seeking heart. But is there no shadow, type, or figure of the coming Christ? None?

The lack of any relations between God's Holy One and anything which was unclean or sinful is such a huge point. We may think of Jesus as such a nice guy, "a friend of sinners" and so forth. And he was (thank God). But the demons cried out in fear when he showed up: "We know who You are -- the Holy One of Israel! (Mark 1:24)" Whoever that trod the 'broad path' near Him, including the disciples, found out real quick what Psalm 119:115 sounded like 'in person'.

But there is no comment in the Recovery Version regarding Psalm 119:115, not even so much as a cross reference.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Psalm 119:115 Away from me, you evildoers, that I may keep the commands of my God!

But there is no comment in the Recovery Version regarding Psalm 119:115, not even so much as a cross reference.

By that time, LSM was in a hurry to wrap things up and get the thing published.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

By that time, LSM was in a hurry to wrap things up and get the thing published.

I agree. Interpretation had been exhausted and merchandising was in full swing. University Press in England was ready to go.

[aron]

I would like to make 3 more comments. I will start with another verse from Psalm 119: verse 120.

"My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws." (NIV)

This verse, like most of Psalm 119, gets no comment or cross-reference in the RecV. In no way, evidently, is this indicative of the coming Christ, who "In the days of His flesh... offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety." (Heb. 5:7 NASB)

In Psalm 119 WL saw, at best, the piety of the psalm writer. Not the piety of Christ.

Second, in spite of numerous NT references to Jesus Christ as revealed "in the flesh" in the psalms, where WL did see Christ in the text it was as "Jehovah God". As in Psalm 23: "Jehovah is my shepherd, I shall not want, etc". To Lee, this meant that Jesus/Jehovah is our shepherd. Perhaps, but what about the Father shepherding the Son, in the days of the Son's flesh (incarnation)? Evidently not considered.

If WL was not forced by existing NT exposition to read the text as showing us Christ in the flesh (incarnated, suffering, resurrecting, glorified), then he either saw the writing as indicative of the psalmist's natural (uninspired) inclinations or at best a revelation of Jehovah/Jesus. But Jesus the persecuted and suffering and faithful Nazarene was not sought for.

I would like to correct this tendency by using the hermeneutic (interpretive strategy) which Peter displayed in his speech, standing with the eleven: "Brothers, we all know that this word (by David, of being saved from corruption) could not have been fulfilled by him, as we have his grave with us to this day. It was rather fulfilled by his seed, Jesus, the Son of David, as we have all witnessed." This is my paraphrase from memory; see Acts 2 for the exact words.

I argue that the Psalms are most importantly the words of Jesus Christ our Lord, not merely words about Christ or to Christ (though both do exist) and even less the words of a well-meaning, sinful psalmist. To WL they were predominantly the latter. He really only saw Jesus Christ where he was absolutely forced to.

Third, I would like to go back to the idea of keeping the law, and being righteous. I believe this was the big stumbling for WL; he dismissed this, and therefore the bulk of the text, out of hand. I say not so fast: we do see Jesus clearly fulfilling the law, down to the proverbial 'jot and tittle', and we do see Jesus telling His disciples that "if you love me you will keep my commandments". Faithfulness and obedience are NT characteristics as well. If we believe in Jesus the righteous one we are supposed to try and follow him.

Today, our "law" is the law of the Spirit of life, and not the law of letters engraved on stone. But our law still exists. The Father speaks, and we (should) obey. "Your word, O Father, is eternal; it stand firm in the heavens" Psalm 119:89

In Psalm 1, the introductory psalm, Lee categorically states that no one can keep the law. I do understand his point but this unfortunately became his basis for effectively dismissing the whole book. His dismissal, however, couldn't make it through the text of Psalm 1, much less the next 149 chapters. To the 'righteous man' in Psalm 1, WL retorts, "There is no righteous man". Then, when the "assembly of the righteous" appears later in the same chapter, he ignores it. But the psalmists' "assembly of the righteous" is quoted by the author of the epistle to the Hebrews! It is the church!

But WL already said that "there is none righteous; no, not one" so he had to dismiss the assembly of the righteous. And so on for the next 149 chapters; in order to keep his premise WL essentially had to rid the Psalms of any meaning.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by aron

In Psalm 1, the introductory psalm, Lee categorically states that no one can keep the law. I do understand his point but this unfortunately became his basis for effectively dismissing the whole book. His dismissal, however, couldn't make it through the text of Psalm 1, much less the next 149 chapters. To the 'righteous man' in Psalm 1, WL retorts, "There is no righteous man". Then, when the "assembly of the righteous" appears later in the same chapter, he ignores it. But the psalmists' "assembly of the righteous" is quoted by the author of the epistle to the Hebrews! It is the church!

But WL already said that "there is none righteous; no, not one" so he had to dismiss the assembly of the righteous. And so on for the next 149 chapters; in order to keep his premise WL essentially had to rid the Psalms of any meaning.

Aron,
Isn't our righteousness in Christ and not from the law? When Paul says, "as it is written, there is none righteous, no not one" he's showing us that the law cannot save us because we can't keep it, but faith in Christ makes us righteous because He kept the law, He fulfilled it.
Abraham was accounted as righteous...how does WL address that? Solely with respect to the law no one (save Christ) can be considered righteous. With respect to faith, all those who believe in God and Christ can be considered as such. The assembly of the righteous is the church as it stands in faith and in Christ. I think you're right on target when you say that the Psalms are Christ's words just as much as they are about him. To dismiss any of them is, I think, to miss the mark entirely. Such a slight misstep leads one far far away.
This is a great thread. Thanks to everyone for helping me work through my understanding of Psalms and its place in the Bible.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

I would like to make 3 more comments. I will start with another verse from Psalm 119: verse 120.

"My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws." (NIV)

Based on the idea that this must refer to Christ, "standing in awe of your laws" could refer to the idea that according to the Law of God He offered up His son to die on the cross to fulfill all righteousness. A path that Jesus chose to take.

That is certainly a view that would cause my flesh to tremble in fear of God and to also stand in awe of His laws.