Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

Many thanks Gubei, for your post.

1. The scene in the garden of Eden was the first instance when man fell and corrupted by sin and death by eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Dear Paul,

Thanks a lot. My next questions are as follows;

1. Was the tree of knowledge of good and evil

a. a physical thing with spiritual meanings
b. a figurative story for spiritual meaning (i.e. not a historical/physical event)

2. If your answer is a, how could a phsyical fruit make man fall? Is is that Satan hided himself or his "nature" into the fruit in order to get into man eventually? And why was the tree called "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" rather thatn "the tree of death", which could have been made more symmetrical with "the tree of life?"

3. If your answer is b, what spiritual entity does the tree of knowledge of good and evil stand for? (i.e. Satan, Satanic nature, death,....)

Judging from your past posts, I guess you would take anwer a

Many thanks once again for your help. - Gubei

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by Gubei

Dear Paul,

Thanks a lot. My next questions are as follows;

1. Was the tree of knowledge of good and evil

a. a physical thing with spiritual meanings
b. a figurative story for spiritual meaning (i.e. not a historical/physical event)

2. If your answer is a, how could a phsyical fruit make man fall? Is is that Satan hided himself or his "nature" into the fruit in order to get into man eventually? And why was the tree called "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" rather thatn "the tree of death", which could have been made more symmetrical with "the tree of life?"

3. If your answer is b, what spiritual entity does the tree of knowledge of good and evil stand for? (i.e. Satan, Satanic nature, death,....)

Judging from your past posts, I guess you would take anwer a

Many thanks once again for your help. - Gubei

I believe the tree of knowledge of good and evil is "a physical thing with spiritual meanings".

Man's eating the physical fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a vivid illustration in the Old Testament how man's disobedience manifested and thereby corrupted him.

Brother Watchman Nee's teaching was very clear regarding this --

In Hebrew, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is composed of three words: knowledge, good, and evil. Life is simply life; it is unique. But God cannot say that evil is good, or that good is evil. Other than knowledge, good, and evil, there is still another thing, which is death. Good and evil bring in death. Today, in order to gain God, we have to be pure. The meaning of being pure is to have one thing only. What we take into us is life, and what is lived out of us is the image. If it is life for us all the way from the beginning to the end and we have nothing besides life, we are being pure. When man joins himself to the knowledge of good and evil, he falls into death, and he becomes complicated. The tree of knowledge can be called the tree of good, and it can also be called the tree of evil. Humanly speaking, the tree of good and the tree of knowledge sound very nice, and the tree of evil and the tree of death sound very bad. But in the whole universe, nothing other than life is according to God's will. Everything outside of life is in the realm of knowledge, good, evil, and death. Today, man thinks that good is life, and evil is death. When man touches evil, he touches death. But when he touches good, does he not touch death also? When he touches knowledge, does he not touch death also? I have to shout loudly that the result of good and knowledge is also death.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

I believe the tree of knowledge of good and evil is "a physical thing with spiritual meanings".

Man's eating the physical fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a vivid illustration in the Old Testament how man's disobedience manifested and thereby corrupted him.

Brother Watchman Nee's teaching was very clear regarding this --

Thanks Paul,

Your quotation of Watchman Nee is more about the reason why the tree could be called the tree of knowledge of good and evil (instead of the tree of death), rather than how the physical fruit can make man fall.

Bascially, I think the physical fruit itself was not a contaminating source of man at that time because physical fruits are just nuetral thing like apples you and I eat in our daily life.

If, however, the apples on the table are prohibited by a mom from the access by her children in order to give them to the dad who is about to get home soon from work, and the children eat them out.... That could be a problem - disobedience.

So my tentative conclusion is this. Man's fall is more related to disobedience than physical eating the fruit (i.e. injection of something into man by eathing it). So it appears that I'm for KSA's "untuned piano" theory.

However, even though Adam was in a untuned contion (caused by disobedience) in the Garden, why his decendants should be born also "untuned" without regard to their freewill are not so clear to me yet.
Ovious is that "unavoidable being born untuned" and "having perfect freewill" conflicts each other quite a lot to me.

Anyway, judging from some verses in the Bible, I think the untuned condition (or sinful nature, or defected freewill) is sure to be inherited ever - which means every human being is sinner.

1. I welcome your comments on my tentative conclusion.
2. You said that the friut is a physical thing. According to Gen., the Garden and the trees are still there, being protected by angels and a flaming sword. And why can we not find the Garden now? That should be somewhere between the Mid-East countries...

- Gubei

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

I believe the tree of knowledge of good and evil is "a physical thing with spiritual meanings".

You are slaughtering the text by allegorizing it. That itself is an insult to the patriarch Hebrew writer, Moses. Allegorical hermeneutics is obsolete; not if taken its proper use in applying to some other passages of Scripture. It might be trending for Witness Lee's time, but not for 21st century Christianity. It was Origen Church father who popularized the allegorical hermeneutics and later on it became so prevalent in church history. Lee was illogical inconsistent of his view on Sin and Satan. But anyway Paul Miletus, many members of the LC unequivocally claim that sin is literally Satan himself indwelt in human flesh from their spoken mouths. I have witnessed it firsthand. Because of Lee's eastern mindset and non-English-native language combine to make different conclusions on how his followers understood it. Maybe because their LC elders who are not biblically trained enough to exegete a particular passage, spoke loosely to the point of mishandling the Scriptures. They only rely the ready-made outlines, RcV Study notes, and Life-Study commentary coming from a publishing house called LSM which is actually for lazy elders who don't diligently study the Scriptures for themselves unlike the noble Bereans in Acts. 17.

Far be enough, Lee is no inerrant teacher. He has caused a lot of damage to the Body of Christ. Why would he be THE ONLY minister (of the Age) whom we should pay attention, to listen to?

Again sorry to say, Nigel Tomes, has also missed this wonderful truth from the Bible, and therefore, Nigel Tomes' writing is DEFECTIVE and LACKED SPIRITUAL REVELATION!

Mere assertions is no argument at all.

Evangelical: On the matter of Satan entering man, I was referring to Lee's teaching as unorthodox, not Christianity's, Lee said this:

"Satan entered into the human body to be the evil in man's flesh"

There is nothing in Genesis that says Satan entered the human body. So Lee is unorthodox.

Right on, Mr. Evangelical. Words from a LC member. It seems Paul Miletus can't run away this admission from another LCer. You admit Lee has erroneously dividing Scripture. I have never heard such a demonic doctrine from any contemporary Christian teachers such as R.C. Sproul, Paul Washer, John Piper, and the others that teach Satan is presently indwelling in our flesh whether be Christians or nonbelievers. It makes Satan sovereign and omnipresent spiritual being. It's just another eisegesis of Lee's making.

“We are not the lords over rules of interpretation, but must pursue scripture's interpretation of itself. . . This is everywhere a rule in scripture: when it wants to allegorize, it tells the interpretation of the allegory, so that the passage will not be interpreted superficiality or be met by the undisciplined desire of those who enjoy allegorization to wander about and be carried in every direction.”

—St. John Chrysostom

[Kevin]

What Is Evil & Where Did It Come From? - RC Sproul

[Kevin]

Looks like, I'm having out of words to get along with the discussion on evil.