The LCS Factor

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

SpeakerCorner if the LCS is not addicted to Lee what's all the fuss about the GLA trying to get on the wagon? Those addicted to Lee cannot imagine an existence without their bottle of Lee. They think they cannot survive without their regular Lee fix. It's not just about reading his materials. The "Lee substance" pervades the LCS. It's like going into an alcoholics house and smelling whiskey. You also smell it on their breath and on their clothes. Go into the LCS and it reeks of Lee. And the raging Leeaholics in Anaheim running the still in a drunken Lee stupor are the pushers. Not a pretty picture to be sure but: the first step to recovery is admitting the problem!

[Thankful Jane]

Hope,

BlessD told me that she has a clear memory of there being four elders from each of four churches present (16 elders): Dallas, OKC, Houston, and Austin.

You seem to still be questioning if this really happened when you say it is very odd or strange. Well, I can guarantee you from first hand experience that this kind of thing is not something the "victim" ever forgets. It is embedded in their pysche. Do you have even the faintest idea what it would have been like to be on the receiving end of this treatment. Horrendous doesn't even come close to describing what happened. Not only was she a very young female sitting in front of 16 men being "talked to" about kissing a boy, these were "God's deputy authorities."

This sister was a beautiful and vibrant young woman who dearly loved the Lord. Her suffering from this lasted for years. This was major abuse of a God created human being done in the name of God. The fact that her parents sat frozen throughout this speaks loudest of all to the mindset present in LC members.

I believe that one day whoever did this will repent with tears when God opens their eyes to what they really did.

We are not here doing a clinical study to come up with statistics. We are talking about precious souls for whom Christ died.

I hope I can inspire some who have not done so to give some thought to the impact on real lives that came as a result of the mindset that was taught and practiced from the top echelon downward. The deviant teachings and practices about marriage and family were pervasive. Ohio confirmed that he heard the "take care of the church first" teaching in his locality. The truth is that people were not taught to properly honor God-given family boundaries or to fulfill their God-given responsibilities to their children or spouses. This was true in Houston, Austin, and Oklahoma City. You have told us it was better in Dallas, yet the event we are speaking about happened there.

Here is what seems strange or odd to me about what happened to BlessD. If you weren't there, then why didn't at least one person out of the many present tell you something about it? Were they told not to speak about it beyond that room? (Wouldn't be the first time.)

It sounds like a classic abuse scenario to me, only this is in the family of God.

Thankful Jane

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

You seem to still be questioning if this really happened when you say it is very odd or strange. Well, I can guarantee you from first hand experience that this kind of thing is not something the "victim" ever forgets. It is embedded in their pysche. Do you have even the faintest idea what it would have been like to be on the receiving end of this treatment. Horrendous doesn't even come close to describing what happened. Not only was she a very young female sitting in front of 16 men being "talked to" about kissing a boy, these were "God's deputy authorities."

This sister was a beautiful and vibrant young woman who dearly loved the Lord. Her suffering from this lasted for years. This was major abuse of a God created human being done in the name of God. The fact that her parents sat frozen throughout this speaks loudest of all to the mindset present in LC members.

Here is what seems strange or odd to me about what happened to BlessD. If you weren't there, then why didn't at least one person out of the many present tell you something about it? Were they told not to speak about it beyond that room? (Wouldn't be the first time.)



Thankful Jane

Thankful Jane, as I read throught the posts I read Hope not doubting what happened, just he had no recollection. You are abosultely correct, when you're on the recieving end, you remember that moment more clearly than many other moments. Those that have yet to experience such an unpleasant dealing; it's equally shocking, dumbfounding, and eye-opening.

Terry

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Let me ask a simple question: in a place where god-man socks are pitched and worn is it "very very odd" that this took place in Dallas i.e. 16 Lee addicts berated a very young lady and her rents for her kissing a boy? These are some of the same men who think Lee is the acting god and other such trivialities. Look how many millions of $ they wasted on building the Irving conference center.

So yes it is "very very odd" by normally accepted standards of behavior but it is not very very odd in the context of the LCS and for Hope to call it such in my view is feigned ignorance on his part.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Let me ask a simple question: in a place where god-man socks are pitched and worn is it "very very odd" that this took place in Dallas i.e. 16 Lee addicts berated a very young lady and her rents for her kissing a boy? These are some of the same men who think Lee is the acting god and other such trivialities. Look how many millions of $ they wasted on building the Irving conference center.

So yes it is "very very odd" by normally accepted standards of behavior but it is not very very odd in the context of the LCS and for Hope to call it such in my view is feigned ignorance on his part.

Wow! That's amazing. Someone from the Living Stream Church willing to berate a young lady for kissing a boy; at the same time the "Blended Brothers" are willing to traverse heaven and hell to cover up Philip Lee's sexual impropriety in the Living Stream Office.

Go figure!

Roger

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Well, I can guarantee you from first hand experience that this kind of thing is not something the "victim" ever forgets. It is embedded in their pysche. Do you have even the faintest idea what it would have been like to be on the receiving end of this treatment. Horrendous doesn't even come close to describing what happened. Not only was she a very young female sitting in front of 16 men being "talked to" about kissing a boy, these were "God's deputy authorities."



Thankful Jane

Thankful Jane, such an experience can happen to sister or brother. It doesn't matter how old the receptient is, the numbers observing whether it's 6, 12, or 18 is intimidating. Furthermore the subject of the meeting is blindsided when they meeting takes place. No forewarning.
If a meeting is necessary, why not one on one with a third party as a witness? As minors are concerned, their parents should be addressed; not the child.

Terry

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Terry

Thankful Jane, such an experience can happen to sister or brother. It doesn't matter how old the receptient is, the numbers observing whether it's 6, 12, or 18 is intimidating. Furthermore the subject of the meeting is blindsided when they meeting takes place. No forewarning.
If a meeting is necessary, why not one on one with a third party as a witness? As minors are concerned, their parents should be addressed; not the child.

Terry

Dear Terry,

The fact that this sister kissed someone is none of the business of elders. God gave parents the job of training and nurturing their children. Moral instruction and guidance is their job.

Elders have no business dictating to parents particulars related to how they discipline their children.

This is real basic fundamental Bible stuff.

Thankful

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Dear Terry,

The fact that this sister kissed someone is none of the business of elders. God gave parents the job of training and nurturing their children. Moral instruction and guidance is their job.

Elders have no business dictating to parents particulars related to how they discipline their children.

This is real basic fundamental Bible stuff.

Thankful

Thankful Jane, I believe you have misunderstood my post. The essence of my post was elders should not be rebuking of disciplining minors. For that matter there were other adults who overstepped their bounds and in my case that individual was not an elder. It is the parents responsibility to rebuke and discipline. It is the parents prerogotive how they raise their children. Growing up in the local church I did have friends that did date. Whether elders had a problem with it, I don't know. I only observed my friends parents were fine with it.

Terry

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

Thankful Jane, such an experience can happen to sister or brother. It doesn't matter how old the receptient is, the numbers observing whether it's 6, 12, or 18 is intimidating. Furthermore the subject of the meeting is blindsided when they meeting takes place. No forewarning.
If a meeting is necessary, why not one on one with a third party as a witness?

Terry

As I had quoted last night, why are such large numbers needed for a so called private meeting? It doesn't matter how old the subject of the meeting is, having unnecessary attendees is intimidating and shameful. If such a meeting (generally speaking) is needed in the first place, it doesn't need the cloak of mystery. Just set up a suitable time for all parties involved and have no more than four present ALTOGETHER (two elders, the meeting subject, and a third-party witness). Could be done at any location. A restaurant, a Starbucks, or even a home. Anything else would make someone uncomfortable if not an unwilling attendee.

Terry

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Terry

As I had quoted last night, why are such large numbers needed for a so called private meeting? It doesn't matter how old the subject of the meeting is, having unnecessary attendees is intimidating and shameful. If such a meeting (generally speaking) is needed in the first place, it doesn't need the cloak of mystery. Just set up a suitable time for all parties involved and have no more than four present ALTOGETHER (two elders, the meeting subject, and a third-party witness). Could be done at any location. A restaurant, a Starbucks, or even a home. Anything else would make someone uncomfortable if not an unwilling attendee.

Terry

How about if one elder just came and talked to my parents and then my parents to me? Or, better yet how about the elders let my parents decide if we could have hung out at each other's house with parent supervision? We would have been perfectly happy doing so - we were good kids and pretty obedient to our parents. All the hooplah wasn't necessary.

[finallyprettyokay]

Originally Posted by blessD

How about if one elder just came and talked to my parents and then my parents to me? Or, better yet how about the elders let my parents decide if we could have hung out at each other's house with parent supervision? We would have been perfectly happy doing so - we were good kids and pretty obedient to our parents. All the hooplah wasn't necessary.

blessD:

I have shared before that I live in the Salt Lake City area --- lots and lots of Mormans, and a very strong culture. Well, one of my friends that is Morman told me when her sister (one of 9 girls) was in high school, she wanted to 'go out' with this guy, and her parents were sort of uncomfortable for whatever reason, but they were so smart -- they said, sure, you can see him as much as you want -- in the front yard. And so they hung out in the front yard for a while, the girl figured out he really wasn't for her, and they all moved happily on. The kids were protected, and the parental relationship was in tact. Smart!!!! Maybe the LC elders could learn from the Mormans!!

Has everyone read my new post? On the Testimony thread. Read it, it is dedicated to all of YOU.

FPO

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by blessD

How about if one elder just came and talked to my parents and then my parents to me? Or, better yet how about the elders let my parents decide if we could have hung out at each other's house with parent supervision? We would have been perfectly happy doing so - we were good kids and pretty obedient to our parents. All the hooplah wasn't necessary.

In my opinion, the elders had no authority how your parents raised you. All they could do is express their concern. If the elders didn't like whatever decision your parents made, it's not their business. Isn't the function of elders to be bondslaves through their work? To minister, to exhort, to teach, to do all for the building up?

Terry

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Terry

In my opinion, the elders had no authority how your parents raised you. All they could do is express their concern. If the elders didn't like whatever decision your parents made, it's not their business. Isn't the function of elders to be bondslaves through their work? To minister, to exhort, to teach, to do all for the building up?

Terry

Sounds good ;-). Just wasn't going to happen in 1970s Houston. I adore my parents even with all of this obedience craziness.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Terry

In my opinion, the elders had no authority how your parents raised you. All they could do is express their concern. If the elders didn't like whatever decision your parents made, it's not their business. Isn't the function of elders to be bondslaves through their work? To minister, to exhort, to teach, to do all for the building up?

Terry

I know when I began to write the history many were interested to know how the eldership worked and how our relationship with WL and the LSM worked. The way the thread has gone has given an excellent opportunity to take a look at some of the service of the so called leading ones.

In Dallas, the elders were usually the last to leave the hall. Many nights my phone rang after mid-night. Poor old George Whitington, the papa elder and master bond-slave was deluged everyday as soon as he arrived from work. There was a dear sister, (one of the junior high students who was saved in Waco) who lived with George. She once told me that she would never marry an elder because she had seen how much George and Cleo, his wife, had to lay down their lives to serve others.

Serve others? There were many young people who wanted your prayers and advice as to college, dating, engagement, marriage, where to live, what job to take, their parents, their boss and on and on. I have had college students call me at 2:00 in the am. They could not sleep because they were so worried about what to major in and wanted to talk. No problem. Slaves do not have the right to chose when they are called to duty.

One of the most difficult matters to handle was a request for fellowship regarding marriage. I cannot count how many times I heard WL give the advice of "the elders should not put people together." "If the marriage does not work out then you will be blamed, the church will be blamed and the Lord's Testimony damaged." But I never heard him say anything about what if someone approaches you about their getting married. Are you just to utter some platitudes on marriage? What if you see the relationship leading to over the cliff? Should you just say nothing less you be accused of manipulating people? In my own experience, 95% of the time I had no particular impressions regarding a couple. They got the general Biblical help and I wanted to be sure that they realized I was for them and available. That needed to be demonstrated. It could not just be a nice slogan. It does take time to demonstrate your love and care. George and Bob Bynum were outstanding at this and far ahead of me.

On two separate occasions I was approached by a couple who were considering marriage. The inward anointing said warning, warning! I had to be honest and faithful. The brother had lived with me for over two years and was very very dear to me and to my entire family. My sons loved this brother dearly and still do to this day. The brother was very upset with me but took the fellowship and stepped back from the relationship. Later he met the sister he was to marry. They have a wonderful marriage. He has thanked me at least 50 times over the years for saving him from a life wrecking decision. The other case was a sister set on getting married. She found a boy who would have her. Again the Lord said I must serve them by giving a warning and asking them to reconsider. A few weeks later, her parents spoke with me regarding my fellowship. They had been visitors for a few weeks and began to attend because their two daughters had become regulars. They told me that because I had the courage and leading to approach their daughter in such a way they saw that the Lord was here. They were so happy for their daughter that the marriage did not happen. Later the daughter thanked us for the fellowship.

But on the other hand what was done could have become ground for unhappiness and the charge of manipulation and control. Same when saints wanted fellowship about jobs, college, where to live etc. Not only were there the normal situations but we did have many dear ones who had damaged souls and needed constant special care.

On several occasions, I was approached by parents to speak with their teen-age children or young adult children regarding some issues. Take a deep breath and turn to your spirit. Of course you do not say, "hey son your mother wants me to talk with you about your ....." That would have been the end. How do you get close to the young person? They are going to be spooked at the slightest misstep. Once a deeply concerned mother asked me to visit her immoral son. When I appeared, all I could say was "hello D. How are you?" Then he unloaded on me and told me to never see him again. Of course, I was open to the charge that I handled it all wrong. Maybe I did. He died a few years later due to his sinful life. My inabilities to help were certainly evident.

This kind of activity was the main duty of the elders. Giving messages was a piece of cake. But for the real job of shepherding you always felt inadequate. If you had opportunity at a conference etc to ask for advice from other elders you did. Often this question - advice was the content of the WL private small group gatherings during a conference.

To defer to the "ministry" for direction of the local assembly was an easy decision to make. The stress on local leadership was more than they often could handle and frankly often being over their heads led them to choose the centralization and promoting of WL. If some elders used the Lee statement about putting the church first and all would be well, I can understand. They sure hoped it was true.

In the proof case which has come up on this thread, I am still wondering about some of the details. Did the parents actually ask the Houston elders to intervene? Did the Houston elders actually expect their fellowship to be followed or else? I learned fairly early on that the brothers and sisters took everything I said very seriously and that made the job even harder. One of the undertones I got to know was, "If Don does not give a specific answer that means he either does not trust you or feels you are not open and not in life. But if I gave some fellowship that was not appreciated then we were open to problems in the future, but even worse what if someone took your advice, fellowship and things went south. Boy oh boy!! Wouldn't it be easier just to follow some higher deputy authority? Thus it was not hard to sell this teaching to the elders and co-workers.

Forget about the errant teachings for a moment, I and the other elders made lots of mistakes, lots of mistakes. The tragedy was that the mistakes were with real people not with objects.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Hope you keep trying to paint a picture that I think you might wish were true but is not. What are the Leeaholics in Anaheim arguing about as it pertains to the GLA? Their fellow addicts have a taste for Lee. A taste for Lee. Good description and very true. Now how many in the LCS jumped on the detox wagon with Tomes, etc. Relatively few huh? Not so easy to face the addiction problem and to actually do something about it. Once ya get a taste you want more and more and more and eventually it consumes your life and takes it over. Credos to Tomes for stepping up! The abuse he will take from the Leeaholic family he is outing is typical but if he stays clean and sober he will be a better man for it.