The LCS Factor

[SpeakersCorner]

It's not an addiction. Wrong word. Addiction implies a craving, a need for another hit. This is NOT what LSMers have. They do have plenty of "hits" of Lee up on the shelves but, unlike true addicts, they don't ever use them. I'm speaking in generalities here, but I do know what I'm talking about. Very, very few LSMers actually read Lee's stuff anymore except when they have to. That is, they will read the HWMR since it's required reading (and many cheat on that) and they will peruse a Green Book when they need to plan a teaching or sharing. But otherwise, you could put those books behind a glass covering and no one would notice.

So what is it that causes a woman to wake up in a panic attack and relieve it by vowing to go back to "The Ministry"? It's fear, plain and simple. LSMers would argue it's the fear of the Lord. I believe it is fear from a lifetime of indoctrination. But it is not an addition, this I know.


SC

[Hope]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

It's not an addiction. Wrong word. Addiction implies a craving, a need for another hit. This is NOT what LSMers have. They do have plenty of "hits" of Lee up on the shelves but, unlike true addicts, they don't ever use them. I'm speaking in generalities here, but I do know what I'm talking about. Very, very few LSMers actually read Lee's stuff anymore except when they have to. That is, they will read the HWMR since it's required reading (and many cheat on that) and they will peruse a Green Book when they need to plan a teaching or sharing. But otherwise, you could put those books behind a glass covering and no one would notice.

So what is it that causes a woman to wake up in a panic attack and relieve it by vowing to go back to "The Ministry"? It's fear, plain and simple. LSMers would argue it's the fear of the Lord. I believe it is fear from a lifetime of indoctrination. But it is not an addition, this I know.

SC

Hello Speaker,

I do not think I have ever responded to one of your posts. I am pretty sure I have read them and found them to be pretty sober minded and right on. Now no, that does not mean I only respond to the unsober minded.


What you have said is the same as what I have found. Actually while I was still in Texas I discovered that the actual readership was pretty low. I remember in 1978, Dallas only had 14 go to the summer training out of 250. We decided not to push but just announce how you could register. No push, few takers. Same was happening to the video training. No push, few takers. Then Benson returned and the push was on again and the attendance picked up considerably.

When Irving opened up, WL planned to spend half the year there. He had been convinced that the metroplex churches would provide an audience of around 750 and within a short time the number including guests could swell to around a 1000. The first year he came for a Thanksgiving conference and stayed until the training time having a Friday night life study meeting. I doubt if the number ever reached 250. There was no taste for his speaking. WL was very dissappointed. Add an ice storm and the Texas experiment was over and several millions of dollars was thrown away.

Speaker, that does not sound like an addiction but rather a fading rose blume.


In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

They do have plenty of "hits" of Lee up on the shelves but, unlike true addicts, they don't ever use them.

Why did they even bother to print Truth Lessons?

I couldn't even fight my way through the first one and only bought two more that have never been even thumbed through to this day and no one has ever mentioned them on these forums that I have seen and as I recall the ambitious 12 volume set only came into existence after they were no longer even considered useful for the program.

That dog just never did hunt.

uttingtosleep:

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

They do have plenty of "hits" of Lee up on the shelves but, unlike true addicts, they don't ever use them. I'm speaking in generalities here, but I do know what I'm talking about. Very, very few LSMers actually read Lee's stuff anymore except when they have to.

SC

SpeakersCorner, while I was meeting in the local churches one thought I had was "why buy something you're not going to read?" I had heard of brothers even elders that would sign up for standing order for appearances sake. What I mean is they'd buy all these books that would collect dust instead of being read.

Terry

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

SpeakerCorner if the LCS is not addicted to Lee what's all the fuss about the GLA trying to get on the wagon? Those addicted to Lee cannot imagine an existence without their bottle of Lee. They think they cannot survive without their regular Lee fix. It's not just about reading his materials. The "Lee substance" pervades the LCS. It's like going into an alcoholics house and smelling whiskey. You also smell it on their breath and on their clothes. Go into the LCS and it reeks of Lee. And the raging Leeaholics in Anaheim running the still in a drunken Lee stupor are the pushers. Not a pretty picture to be sure but: the first step to recovery is admitting the problem!

[Thankful Jane]

Hope,

BlessD told me that she has a clear memory of there being four elders from each of four churches present (16 elders): Dallas, OKC, Houston, and Austin.

You seem to still be questioning if this really happened when you say it is very odd or strange. Well, I can guarantee you from first hand experience that this kind of thing is not something the "victim" ever forgets. It is embedded in their pysche. Do you have even the faintest idea what it would have been like to be on the receiving end of this treatment. Horrendous doesn't even come close to describing what happened. Not only was she a very young female sitting in front of 16 men being "talked to" about kissing a boy, these were "God's deputy authorities."

This sister was a beautiful and vibrant young woman who dearly loved the Lord. Her suffering from this lasted for years. This was major abuse of a God created human being done in the name of God. The fact that her parents sat frozen throughout this speaks loudest of all to the mindset present in LC members.

I believe that one day whoever did this will repent with tears when God opens their eyes to what they really did.

We are not here doing a clinical study to come up with statistics. We are talking about precious souls for whom Christ died.

I hope I can inspire some who have not done so to give some thought to the impact on real lives that came as a result of the mindset that was taught and practiced from the top echelon downward. The deviant teachings and practices about marriage and family were pervasive. Ohio confirmed that he heard the "take care of the church first" teaching in his locality. The truth is that people were not taught to properly honor God-given family boundaries or to fulfill their God-given responsibilities to their children or spouses. This was true in Houston, Austin, and Oklahoma City. You have told us it was better in Dallas, yet the event we are speaking about happened there.

Here is what seems strange or odd to me about what happened to BlessD. If you weren't there, then why didn't at least one person out of the many present tell you something about it? Were they told not to speak about it beyond that room? (Wouldn't be the first time.)

It sounds like a classic abuse scenario to me, only this is in the family of God.

Thankful Jane

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

You seem to still be questioning if this really happened when you say it is very odd or strange. Well, I can guarantee you from first hand experience that this kind of thing is not something the "victim" ever forgets. It is embedded in their pysche. Do you have even the faintest idea what it would have been like to be on the receiving end of this treatment. Horrendous doesn't even come close to describing what happened. Not only was she a very young female sitting in front of 16 men being "talked to" about kissing a boy, these were "God's deputy authorities."

This sister was a beautiful and vibrant young woman who dearly loved the Lord. Her suffering from this lasted for years. This was major abuse of a God created human being done in the name of God. The fact that her parents sat frozen throughout this speaks loudest of all to the mindset present in LC members.

Here is what seems strange or odd to me about what happened to BlessD. If you weren't there, then why didn't at least one person out of the many present tell you something about it? Were they told not to speak about it beyond that room? (Wouldn't be the first time.)



Thankful Jane

Thankful Jane, as I read throught the posts I read Hope not doubting what happened, just he had no recollection. You are abosultely correct, when you're on the recieving end, you remember that moment more clearly than many other moments. Those that have yet to experience such an unpleasant dealing; it's equally shocking, dumbfounding, and eye-opening.

Terry

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Let me ask a simple question: in a place where god-man socks are pitched and worn is it "very very odd" that this took place in Dallas i.e. 16 Lee addicts berated a very young lady and her rents for her kissing a boy? These are some of the same men who think Lee is the acting god and other such trivialities. Look how many millions of $ they wasted on building the Irving conference center.

So yes it is "very very odd" by normally accepted standards of behavior but it is not very very odd in the context of the LCS and for Hope to call it such in my view is feigned ignorance on his part.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Let me ask a simple question: in a place where god-man socks are pitched and worn is it "very very odd" that this took place in Dallas i.e. 16 Lee addicts berated a very young lady and her rents for her kissing a boy? These are some of the same men who think Lee is the acting god and other such trivialities. Look how many millions of $ they wasted on building the Irving conference center.

So yes it is "very very odd" by normally accepted standards of behavior but it is not very very odd in the context of the LCS and for Hope to call it such in my view is feigned ignorance on his part.

Wow! That's amazing. Someone from the Living Stream Church willing to berate a young lady for kissing a boy; at the same time the "Blended Brothers" are willing to traverse heaven and hell to cover up Philip Lee's sexual impropriety in the Living Stream Office.

Go figure!

Roger

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Well, I can guarantee you from first hand experience that this kind of thing is not something the "victim" ever forgets. It is embedded in their pysche. Do you have even the faintest idea what it would have been like to be on the receiving end of this treatment. Horrendous doesn't even come close to describing what happened. Not only was she a very young female sitting in front of 16 men being "talked to" about kissing a boy, these were "God's deputy authorities."



Thankful Jane

Thankful Jane, such an experience can happen to sister or brother. It doesn't matter how old the receptient is, the numbers observing whether it's 6, 12, or 18 is intimidating. Furthermore the subject of the meeting is blindsided when they meeting takes place. No forewarning.
If a meeting is necessary, why not one on one with a third party as a witness? As minors are concerned, their parents should be addressed; not the child.

Terry

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Terry

Thankful Jane, such an experience can happen to sister or brother. It doesn't matter how old the receptient is, the numbers observing whether it's 6, 12, or 18 is intimidating. Furthermore the subject of the meeting is blindsided when they meeting takes place. No forewarning.
If a meeting is necessary, why not one on one with a third party as a witness? As minors are concerned, their parents should be addressed; not the child.

Terry

Dear Terry,

The fact that this sister kissed someone is none of the business of elders. God gave parents the job of training and nurturing their children. Moral instruction and guidance is their job.

Elders have no business dictating to parents particulars related to how they discipline their children.

This is real basic fundamental Bible stuff.

Thankful

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Dear Terry,

The fact that this sister kissed someone is none of the business of elders. God gave parents the job of training and nurturing their children. Moral instruction and guidance is their job.

Elders have no business dictating to parents particulars related to how they discipline their children.

This is real basic fundamental Bible stuff.

Thankful

Thankful Jane, I believe you have misunderstood my post. The essence of my post was elders should not be rebuking of disciplining minors. For that matter there were other adults who overstepped their bounds and in my case that individual was not an elder. It is the parents responsibility to rebuke and discipline. It is the parents prerogotive how they raise their children. Growing up in the local church I did have friends that did date. Whether elders had a problem with it, I don't know. I only observed my friends parents were fine with it.

Terry

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

Thankful Jane, such an experience can happen to sister or brother. It doesn't matter how old the receptient is, the numbers observing whether it's 6, 12, or 18 is intimidating. Furthermore the subject of the meeting is blindsided when they meeting takes place. No forewarning.
If a meeting is necessary, why not one on one with a third party as a witness?

Terry

As I had quoted last night, why are such large numbers needed for a so called private meeting? It doesn't matter how old the subject of the meeting is, having unnecessary attendees is intimidating and shameful. If such a meeting (generally speaking) is needed in the first place, it doesn't need the cloak of mystery. Just set up a suitable time for all parties involved and have no more than four present ALTOGETHER (two elders, the meeting subject, and a third-party witness). Could be done at any location. A restaurant, a Starbucks, or even a home. Anything else would make someone uncomfortable if not an unwilling attendee.

Terry

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Terry

As I had quoted last night, why are such large numbers needed for a so called private meeting? It doesn't matter how old the subject of the meeting is, having unnecessary attendees is intimidating and shameful. If such a meeting (generally speaking) is needed in the first place, it doesn't need the cloak of mystery. Just set up a suitable time for all parties involved and have no more than four present ALTOGETHER (two elders, the meeting subject, and a third-party witness). Could be done at any location. A restaurant, a Starbucks, or even a home. Anything else would make someone uncomfortable if not an unwilling attendee.

Terry

How about if one elder just came and talked to my parents and then my parents to me? Or, better yet how about the elders let my parents decide if we could have hung out at each other's house with parent supervision? We would have been perfectly happy doing so - we were good kids and pretty obedient to our parents. All the hooplah wasn't necessary.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Hope you keep trying to paint a picture that I think you might wish were true but is not. What are the Leeaholics in Anaheim arguing about as it pertains to the GLA? Their fellow addicts have a taste for Lee. A taste for Lee. Good description and very true. Now how many in the LCS jumped on the detox wagon with Tomes, etc. Relatively few huh? Not so easy to face the addiction problem and to actually do something about it. Once ya get a taste you want more and more and more and eventually it consumes your life and takes it over. Credos to Tomes for stepping up! The abuse he will take from the Leeaholic family he is outing is typical but if he stays clean and sober he will be a better man for it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

So what is it that causes a woman to wake up in a panic attack and relieve it by vowing to go back to "The Ministry"? It's fear, plain and simple. LSMers would argue it's the fear of the Lord. I believe it is fear from a lifetime of indoctrination. But it is not an addition, this I know.
SC

Well said, SC. You have described it well.

I believe fear, pride and judgmentalism are more accurate descriptors (matching Laodicea) than Leeaholism and idolatry, though I am not disputing that the idolatry line had not been crossed.


Whew! This thread is like the whirlwind!

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Very, very few LSMers actually read Lee's stuff anymore except when they have to.

How true. I spent my early days reading so much privately on my own. But in the last 20 years or so I could only read those books when we read as a group, or when I had an assignment.

[Hope]

Regarding a case study which is part of the proof of the anti-family practices and grounds for indictment of the Dallas church.

Here are a few quotes from various posts which seem to represent how my experience in Dallas is not legitimate or that I am in denial or simply covering up or lying. Take your pick. As more details have come out, I am absolutely certain I was not in that get together and had no knowledge of it. I can believe two young people were seen kissing in the parking lot at the meeting hall. But there are big holes in the rest of the story.

Quotes from posts:

it's been intimated that The Church in Dallas was somehow without problems in this area, and Matt came out to refute that notion. Please consider another thread with reference to The Church in Dallas, The Thread of Gold:
When Sally Martin (the sister whose arranged marriage I described previously) was in high school, she was reported to the elders for being seen kissing a young brother in a car after school. Subsequently, during a conference at the Church in Dallas, she was summoned to a private meeting. When she arrived, she found that her parents had also been summoned. According to her, neither she nor her parents knew what the meeting was about prior to being asked to attend. Sally was seated at the head of a long table. Her parents were included at the table with approximately sixteen Local Church elders from Texas and other states. They proceeded to talk to her about her inappropriate behavior while her parents said nothing.

She told me that the whole time became a big blur to her because she was in so much pain from the embarrassment and humiliation of such a confrontation. She lived with the pain of that memory and suffered under the sanctions they placed on her. She also suffered having to face those elders at other Local Church meetings and conferences. (363–364)

Jane goes on to state that this was a matter that should have been broached with her parents for her parents to handle. To subject a young girl to a council of 16 elders from two states sounds like a horrific injustice to me.

For example, how many times did elders in local congregations discipline other people's children? It happened all of the time. It happened without informing, involving and working with the people who are commanded to love and nurture these children (the parents).

P.S. Based on what I have heard from others it is possible that the Texas Region (inclusive of Dallas) was more extreme than other regions of the US.

Quote from the sister posted on the forum yesterday,

This instance occurred at a conference in Dallas at which time someone told me I needed to go next door after one of the meetings. Maybe it seemed like a good idea since we were all gathered in Dallas???

BlessD told me that she has a clear memory of there being four elders from each of four churches present (16 elders): Dallas, OKC, Houston, and Austin.
.

First big hole in the story: It happened in the house next to the meeting hall
If the elders were going to transact something they always met in the elder’s room upstairs in the meeting hall. We would have wanted privacy and the so called big house was grand central station. When the long table with 16 men plus parents plus young sister sitting around it were mentioned, well that could not have happened in the meeting hall as there was no long table. There was a dining room in the house off from the kitchen and living room. Of course it had a table, but there is no way 19 adults are crowding into that room. It simply could not have happened that way.

Second problem: Sixteen elders from four churches are summoned to a meeting after the conference meeting? I have tried to piece together a time when there were a total of 16 elders in those four churches. A Texas area conference in Dallas would have been before the completion of the Irving Hall. I have thought hard and for the time period of 1974-5 through 1982 I cannot come up with more than 14 possible elders as the total for those four churches. That is the top number if we counted all who served in those four churches inclusively and I doubt if there were ever that many at a specific point in time.

Third problem: The various elders really did not want to be brought into the local issues and problems of a specific church. The sort of meeting described and put forth as representing the elders or churches overstepping its boundaries did not ever happen as far as I can recall. Why would I lie? Am I in such deep denial that my memory has been erased? If elders in Houston or OK City or Austin overstepped on a local level, I could not say one way or other. Could Ray Graver? I would believe just about any odd charges against him. He liked creating a mess and then jumping into it. Best to stay clear was my philosophy.

Now let me offer a possible and believable frame for the story. Young people seen kissing somewhere, after school or in the parking lot of the church building before or during or after a meeting etc. Could happen anywhere. Witness reports to his or her local elder. In this case we now know it was Houston. That elder tells another Houston elder. They note that parents who live in OK City are also there. They decide it would be convenient to get with them and the daughter during the conference since they are all there. They ask one of the Dallas elders or deacon for a place to get a few together after a meeting. (If they asked an elder he most likely gave the task to a deacon who would know what might be open for the use of the Houston brothers.) Deacon arranges for the dining room in the house to be available. Person living in house who is overseeing it lets others staying there, permanent and out of town guest know that the dining room will be in use for a certain period of time. People in house go about their business. At best the atmosphere is semi-private.
Houston elder contacts OK City elder and informs him of the situation and would like him to attend the meeting and would he contact the parents. OK City elder decides to ask another elder to be there. The only ones who really know what is about to happen are the elders from Houston.

Now let us look at the room. Maybe two elders each from Houston and OK City, the parents, the young sister, a Dallas deacon serving as traffic cop. That is eight, not 19. Eight could get into the dinning room comfortably. Maybe the brother or sister overseeing the house popped in to offer refreshment. I can certainly understand that in the young sister’s mind the crowd looks like the Mongolian horde. Could be she counted four elders and in her mind it became four elders from all the churches. Whoever set this up was not just insensitive but dense. Could have been Ray. As we see the lack of wisdom has spawned a long line of problems.

Since this was no doubt done on the fly, who was to speak to the parents? Fell through the cracks. Since they were ignorant when they got to the meeting, they probably did hold their fire until they could speak to the daughter.

This is a plausible frame for the incident. The other is not.

According to TJ, the sister said the whole affair was a blur. In the sister’s report on the forum, she says “someone” informed her of the meeting. I have to conclude nothing is really clear about that incident and all the inferences and sweeping charges that have put forward should just be dropped. Believe me I am not afraid of digging down deep on this case since I am very certain it is not what it was reported to be. I would rather let the sister go and “move on” as she has said she has.

Don Rutledge

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

Regarding a case study which is part of the proof of the anti-family practices and grounds for indictment of the Dallas church.

Here are a few quotes from various posts which seem to represent how my experience in Dallas is not legitimate or that I am in denial or simply covering up or lying. Take your pick. As more details have come out, I am absolutely certain I was not in that get together and had no knowledge of it.

Brother Hope,

I, for one, sure appreciate the way you have responded on this thread. Rarely have I seen leaders take the time to examine all potential avenues to reconcile conflicting accounts, without resorting to the nasty alternatives you have cited.

When we get occupied only with the extremes, we lose healthy perspective, and emotions get heated. I have passed thru a few rounds of that myself. Nothing gets this crowd (including me) more excited than someone saying a "few good things" about the LC's.

Grace to you. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all. (I love that saying.)

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Hope

According to TJ, the sister said the whole affair was a blur. In the sister’s report on the forum, she says “someone” informed her of the meeting. I have to conclude nothing is really clear about that incident and all the inferences and sweeping charges that have put forward should just be dropped. Believe me I am not afraid of digging down deep on this case since I am very certain it is not what it was reported to be. I would rather let the sister go and “move on” as she has said she has.

Don Rutledge

As far as I am concerned this won't be dropped. The simple fact that you have requested that it would be dropped has prompted me to believe it should be pursued. You're trying to say the water is muddy. Let's leave it muddy.

Just so you know, this kind of approach activates me to pursue. So here goes. In these situations I don't presume one way or the other. I pursue it to discover the truth. I know one thing for sure. Something happened as this person says and it crossed local boundaries. It violated family boundaries. It was wrong.

I have a question for you: What are you protecting at this time? Please elaborate. Is all of this about protecting against djohnson? If so, there is no need. Almost everyone understands his frame of reference and need no guidance from an ex-leader in knowing how to handle his inputs. Are you protecting something else? If so, what? Many of those here know how to sort through information and see the real situation. The "noise" of the "fray" is not a problem for most here. Almost every single person here is wanting to dig down on elements of truth and have things established for the sake of the Lord. You included.

It is obvious that there is some confusion on the facts. Let's get the facts straight.

To be quite honest, your reaction is very odd to me.

You may be right that some of the lesser facts are wrong, but to request that the whole matter be dropped seems very inappropriate in my mind.

Let me tell you why I see it as so inappropriate. The person this happened to has spoken up. The abused has spoken up. The Lord is clear. We should defend the case of the widow, the oppressed, etc. This matter should be pursued. And factual errors should be cleared up for the sake of the abused (and the abusers).

The only reason I can come up with in my mind is for your protection or the protection of the perception of Dallas. Between you and the abused party in this situation, you do not need the protection. You can suffer the truth. The abused party always needs more support.

I had written a little more conciliatory post last night, but after reading your post this morning, I just can't be conciliatory.

In closing, let me be quite clear. At this stage, the only reason to determine your presence at a meeting like this one is for your sake. I am assuming based on your words that you were not there and it doesn't make a difference to me. Let me close with a few facts that point to the underlying point of this thread.

1. Elders from outside your locality came to your locality and conducted extra-local church discipline that violated proper family boundaries without your knowledge. (Violation of Local Authority)

Note: Based on your own accounts, this was not the only time this happened. I can think of at least one or two other instances.

Question: Are you trying to say this didn't happen in Dallas? If so, why is it important to you that it didn't happen in Dallas?

2. If there were things like the aforementioned example happening in Dallas, then Dallas was no exclusion to what was going on throughout the greater Texas region. You may not have liked it or may have tried to exclude yourself from some of it. Good. When those extra-local influences were not around Dallas may have been a little better. Good.

3. As this conversation continues, it seems you are positioning yourself as the exception, not the rule, of what happened within the LC. In doing this, you exclude yourself from the point djohnson was/is making and so your reaction to his thread make no sense to me. The general rule was abusiveness towards families due to the way the system of the LC worked. This abuse came in the major form of neglect of parental duties and sometimes it was worse. The priorities of the LC system were off. We've all agreed to this fact.

4. It has become apparent that your eldership in Dallas was not respected (especially throughout the rest of the region) and it was ignored when someone with a higher level of authority from some other locality felt it appropriate to take some action. You were treated with kid gloves by others who had more "power" (James, Benson).

The last thing you said, was that you would prefer that this be dropped in part for the sake of this sister. If I assure you that this sister will be cared for in this situation, would you prefer to dig down on this and establish the truth?

Matt

P.S. We've all been beat up on forums like this one when we get "defensive" from time to time. We each have a right to "defend" ourselves and we should. It helps establish truth for the sake of everyone.

[finallyprettyokay]

Wow. What a deal. I have no doubt believing this happened, for alot of different reasons. Hope, I also have no trouble believing you weren't there. I think those two facts can easlily co-exist.

I would specualate that one or two men put this into motion, and the other men either didn't know what was going to happen (like the parents did not know), or didn't think it through very well. Either way, someone could have spoken to put an end to the inquisition when it became clear what was happening.

Hope --- believe other people's experience more graciously. Here is an example:

Matt wrote: For example, how many times did elders in local congregations discipline other people's children? It happened all of the time.

And you responded:

Regarding the discipline of other's children. I am not familar with this practice. Perhaps some elder somewhere scolded a child.

As I PMed you, I hate to see anyone take so many hits. I myself woudl be really upset if it were me. So you know (I hope) that I say this with gentleness and kindness. Just believe someone else's views and experiences more graciously. With this example, I felt like Matt was not received as a reliable witness to how children were treated, even though he was a child at the time. No doubt he was in position to witness how children were treated better than most adults.

On my way to church at my denomination. See everyone later.

fpo

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay

With this example, I felt like Matt was not received as a reliable witness to how children were treated, even though he was a child at the time. No doubt he was in position to witness how children were treated better than most adults.

fpo

FPO,

I'm not terribly concerned whether my witness holds up as reliable in all cases. I've been proven wrong before and it will happen again. I hope I can simply be honest when this happens and admit to it.

As for how children were treated, the environment throughout the Texas region was oppressive. By the age of 13 my parents were out of the LC and I was free from it with the exception of what had been integrated into my head. I went to a few more Young People's conferences (I think 2-3) later on in high school.

Here are three anecdotal's that I may have shared previously.

1. We were all told we could wear shorts at one conference. We showed up only to have this decision reversed. It was the middle of summer in Texas and the heat was sweltering. I defied them. I walked out in my shorts to the next meeting after the decision was reversed. I knew I might be sent home, but it was worth it. They were executing psychological manipulation. Within a few hours everyone was in shorts and it didn't get re-reversed.

2. Without being told that there was a seating order for the kids... Girls on one side and boys on the others side, everyone always segregated. I didn't. I went and sat by the one person who I had been in babysitting with since I was 6 years old. Even she was a little concerned about my presence. I told her that it was fine and that they needed to learn how to grow up. We didn't live in a prison camp. One brother started to approach me. I shot him a look and he turned and walked the other way.

Note: I was separated from babysitting with all the other kids in OKC because my parents were "stinky" to the LC.

3. Each night before bed they would go around the room in prayer. Each person would pray something and then go to the next. I sat in silence when it reached me until the next person started praying. The silence lasted for 30-40 seconds. After two nights of this one of the "brothers" decided to talk to me about it. I told him, "You are free to pray. I'm not comfortable with it, so just leave me alone."

If these little stories give you any clues (as they should) I was a very angry little man.

These little stories are the ones I can give. I resisted the oppressive environment successfully in these cases, but even those who were "rebels" around me didn't have the strength to do it. Most just were dominated by the environment to the destruction of their souls.

I believe that drugs were one of the escapes for those of certain psychological make-ups. I believe extreme depression was another escape. I believe extreme performance-based living was another escape (this is yet another kind of hell on earth).

Matt

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Matt

1. Elders from outside your locality came to your locality and conducted extra-local church discipline that violated proper family boundaries without your knowledge. (Violation of Local Authority)

Note: Based on your own accounts, this was not the only time this happened. I can think of at least one or two other instances.

Question: Are you trying to say this didn't happen in Dallas? If so, why is it important to you that it didn't happen in Dallas?

Matt

I would like to raise the possibility the number reported at the meeting is correct, but not all of them were elders. Some at the meeting could have been deacons and others present serving as witnesses. Is it possible that a number present at the meeting were not from Dallas which is why Hope didn't hear about it?

What I object to is usurping the parent's responsibility. Whether it was a concerned brother or sister, they should be speaking with the parents and not the minor. Whatever rebuking is done should be the parents responsibility.

Terry

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Essentially what Hope has done on this thread is try to present himself and his "locality" as an exception. Even if he was the exception so what? He says he was basically marked out and persecuted for it by the Lee addicts - which more or less proves the point of the thread.

16 people. 8 people. This room. That room. All moot. Unless the woman is outright lying the event happened. And Roger has brought up an excellent point which I suggested in my original thread: the hypocrisy of the leadership. Berating a young lady for kissing a boy while covering up for Mr. Lee's son who was running LSM!

And let it also be pointed out per Ingalls book that when he wanted to discuss with Phillips and Graver the behavior of Lee's son they both adamantly refused to listen because why? Because it was a "local matter" restricted to Anaheim. Are these the same guys who think kissing a boy is an extra local matter? I said in the another forum that the leadership of the LCS are full of Baloney. Hey maybe that's a better description than addiction!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by djohnson

And let it also be pointed out per Ingalls book that when he wanted to discuss with Phillips and Graver the behavior of Lee's son they both adamantly refused to listen because why? Because it was a "local matter" restricted to Anaheim. Are these the same guys who think kissing a boy is an extra local matter? I said in the another forum that the leadership of the LCS are full of B.S. Hey maybe that's a better description than addiction!

djohnson, maybe this isn't the right thread for this response, but have you considered Benson Phillips and Ray Graver did not want to listen to John Ingall's fellowship involving Witness Lee's son, because it would not have served their purpose to do so?

Terry

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

The hypocrisy of the LCS that has been exposed here is really alarming. It seems that these brothers had no problem going after "wayward" sisters, like Thankful Jane and BlessD, but they refused to deal with brothers whose sins were much greater. WL's son was simply never dealt with, and brother "Ben", the adulterous elder, was quietly moved to another locality where he could prey upon another weak marriage situation. All this is in direct contradiction to 1 Timothy 5:19-21 :

"Against an elder do not receive an accusation, except based upon two or three witnesses. The ones who sin reprove before all that the rest also may have fear. I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels that you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality."

The fact that sisters Thankful Jane and BlessD have been able to put all this behind them and have both gone on with the Lord is such positive ways is very encouraging! I have really been enjoying lately some speakings and writings of non-LSM brothers who have/had very rich ministries, but who did not carry around all this "extra junk" that has corrupted the LCS. Brothers like Stephen Kaung, TAS, Ian Thomas, Bakht Singh, etc. How wonderful it is to be able to fall in love with our beloved Christ all over again, without all the extra baggage like the peer pressure in the LCS, "The Minister of The Age", "Quarantines", LSM headquarters in Anaheim, etc. O to be able to return to the freedom and simplicity in Christ that is ours by virtue of our new birth in Him!

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Hope

Regarding a case study which is part of the proof of the anti-family practices and grounds for indictment of the Dallas church.

Here are a few quotes from various posts which seem to represent how my experience in Dallas is not legitimate or that I am in denial or simply covering up or lying. Take your pick. As more details have come out, I am absolutely certain I was not in that get together and had no knowledge of it. I can believe two young people were seen kissing in the parking lot at the meeting hall. But there are big holes in the rest of the story.

Quotes from posts:

it's been intimated that The Church in Dallas was somehow without problems in this area, and Matt came out to refute that notion. Please consider another thread with reference to The Church in Dallas, The Thread of Gold:
When Sally Martin (the sister whose arranged marriage I described previously) was in high school, she was reported to the elders for being seen kissing a young brother in a car after school. Subsequently, during a conference at the Church in Dallas, she was summoned to a private meeting. When she arrived, she found that her parents had also been summoned. According to her, neither she nor her parents knew what the meeting was about prior to being asked to attend. Sally was seated at the head of a long table. Her parents were included at the table with approximately sixteen Local Church elders from Texas and other states. They proceeded to talk to her about her inappropriate behavior while her parents said nothing.

She told me that the whole time became a big blur to her because she was in so much pain from the embarrassment and humiliation of such a confrontation. She lived with the pain of that memory and suffered under the sanctions they placed on her. She also suffered having to face those elders at other Local Church meetings and conferences. (363–364)

Jane goes on to state that this was a matter that should have been broached with her parents for her parents to handle. To subject a young girl to a council of 16 elders from two states sounds like a horrific injustice to me.

For example, how many times did elders in local congregations discipline other people's children? It happened all of the time. It happened without informing, involving and working with the people who are commanded to love and nurture these children (the parents).

P.S. Based on what I have heard from others it is possible that the Texas Region (inclusive of Dallas) was more extreme than other regions of the US.

Quote from the sister posted on the forum yesterday,

This instance occurred at a conference in Dallas at which time someone told me I needed to go next door after one of the meetings. Maybe it seemed like a good idea since we were all gathered in Dallas???

BlessD told me that she has a clear memory of there being four elders from each of four churches present (16 elders): Dallas, OKC, Houston, and Austin.
.

First big hole in the story: It happened in the house next to the meeting hall
If the elders were going to transact something they always met in the elder’s room upstairs in the meeting hall. We would have wanted privacy and the so called big house was grand central station. When the long table with 16 men plus parents plus young sister sitting around it were mentioned, well that could not have happened in the meeting hall as there was no long table. There was a dining room in the house off from the kitchen and living room. Of course it had a table, but there is no way 19 adults are crowding into that room. It simply could not have happened that way.

Second problem: Sixteen elders from four churches are summoned to a meeting after the conference meeting? I have tried to piece together a time when there were a total of 16 elders in those four churches. A Texas area conference in Dallas would have been before the completion of the Irving Hall. I have thought hard and for the time period of 1974-5 through 1982 I cannot come up with more than 14 possible elders as the total for those four churches. That is the top number if we counted all who served in those four churches inclusively and I doubt if there were ever that many at a specific point in time.

Third problem: The various elders really did not want to be brought into the local issues and problems of a specific church. The sort of meeting described and put forth as representing the elders or churches overstepping its boundaries did not ever happen as far as I can recall. Why would I lie? Am I in such deep denial that my memory has been erased? If elders in Houston or OK City or Austin overstepped on a local level, I could not say one way or other. Could Ray Graver? I would believe just about any odd charges against him. He liked creating a mess and then jumping into it. Best to stay clear was my philosophy.

Now let me offer a possible and believable frame for the story. Young people seen kissing somewhere, after school or in the parking lot of the church building before or during or after a meeting etc. Could happen anywhere. Witness reports to his or her local elder. In this case we now know it was Houston. That elder tells another Houston elder. They note that parents who live in OK City are also there. They decide it would be convenient to get with them and the daughter during the conference since they are all there. They ask one of the Dallas elders or deacon for a place to get a few together after a meeting. (If they asked an elder he most likely gave the task to a deacon who would know what might be open for the use of the Houston brothers.) Deacon arranges for the dining room in the house to be available. Person living in house who is overseeing it lets others staying there, permanent and out of town guest know that the dining room will be in use for a certain period of time. People in house go about their business. At best the atmosphere is semi-private.
Houston elder contacts OK City elder and informs him of the situation and would like him to attend the meeting and would he contact the parents. OK City elder decides to ask another elder to be there. The only ones who really know what is about to happen are the elders from Houston.

Now let us look at the room. Maybe two elders each from Houston and OK City, the parents, the young sister, a Dallas deacon serving as traffic cop. That is eight, not 19. Eight could get into the dinning room comfortably. Maybe the brother or sister overseeing the house popped in to offer refreshment. I can certainly understand that in the young sister’s mind the crowd looks like the Mongolian horde. Could be she counted four elders and in her mind it became four elders from all the churches. Whoever set this up was not just insensitive but dense. Could have been Ray. As we see the lack of wisdom has spawned a long line of problems.

Since this was no doubt done on the fly, who was to speak to the parents? Fell through the cracks. Since they were ignorant when they got to the meeting, they probably did hold their fire until they could speak to the daughter.

This is a plausible frame for the incident. The other is not.

According to TJ, the sister said the whole affair was a blur. In the sister’s report on the forum, she says “someone” informed her of the meeting. I have to conclude nothing is really clear about that incident and all the inferences and sweeping charges that have put forward should just be dropped. Believe me I am not afraid of digging down deep on this case since I am very certain it is not what it was reported to be. I would rather let the sister go and “move on” as she has said she has.

Don Rutledge

Regardless of the fine-grained details, there are good lessons to be learned. Let's not get lost in whether there are 12 or 16 sitting at a table. I would like you to take a look at the following information if you have the time. It is very relative to what happened in this instance:

Regarding an experiment called the Milgram Experiment - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment - summarized in Milgram's 1974 article, "The Perils of Obedience", writing:
... Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority...

This psychological/socialogical phenom has been related to such historic incidents as the Holocaust, Enron (Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room), and Abu Ghraib (Ghosts of Abu Ghraib).

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Terry I want you to know that I was sorta messing with you on my last post. In all your posts on any subject in this forum and the other one I always appreciate your heart i.e. sense of kindness. It counter balances the rough edges of posters like me.

[John]

BlessD,

I do want to say how sorry I am that you had to endure the abuse that you experienced at that meeting in Dallas. It must have been terribly traumatic for you, especially as a young person of high school age. I have also experienced abuse from elders, but I can’t imagine how horrible that was for you, including the aftermath of humiliation that continued.

I am glad to hear that you are happy and have moved on from that time in your life. I have just lately been realizing the love and peace that can come from our Lord Jesus. He is able to shepherd each one of us.

I was thankful to find your story to quote on this forum in response to an elder and others who seemed to think that things were not as bad as they were. Actual experiences of others are the only way I know to bring these matters forward to get the attention that they deserve.

It still probably brings back pain to you even though you have moved on with your life. For this, I truly am sorry. I do wish that you had gotten more of an apology than you did. You deserve better.

In fact, you deserve our thanks for being willing to have this experience of yours put into a book and then being willing to come out here and post about its truthfulness. Honestly, I don’t think that I would have the courage to come out as you have done, especially in the face of those who want to question every detail of your experience.

Indeed, we are blessed to have you. I hope that your courage will inspire others to be willing to tell their stories as you have done. I know of several other women who were abused in the Local Church System years ago who are still too afraid to speak up.

May our Lord take care of all of your needs and bless you even more abundantly.

In our Lord’s dear love and concern,

John

[blessD]

Originally Posted by John

BlessD,

I do want to say how sorry I am that you had to endure the abuse that you experienced at that meeting in Dallas. It must have been terribly traumatic for you, especially as a young person of high school age. I have also experienced abuse from elders, but I can’t imagine how horrible that was for you, including the aftermath of humiliation that continued.

I am glad to hear that you are happy and have moved on from that time in your life. I have just lately been realizing the love and peace that can come from our Lord Jesus. He is able to shepherd each one of us.

I was thankful to find your story to quote on this forum in response to an elder and others who seemed to think that things were not as bad as they were. Actual experiences of others are the only way I know to bring these matters forward to get the attention that they deserve.

It still probably brings back pain to you even though you have moved on with your life. For this, I truly am sorry. I do wish that you had gotten more of an apology than you did. You deserve better.

In fact, you deserve our thanks for being willing to have this experience of yours put into a book and then being willing to come out here and post about its truthfulness. Honestly, I don’t think that I would have the courage to come out as you have done, especially in the face of those who want to question every detail of your experience.

Indeed, we are blessed to have you. I hope that your courage will inspire others to be willing to tell their stories as you have done. I know of several other women who were abused in the Local Church System years ago who are still too afraid to speak up.

May our Lord take care of all of your needs and bless you even more abundantly.

In our Lord’s dear love and concern,

John

Thank you John. Your words are very refreshing after, gulp, reading my embarrassing incident be put through a systematic analysis and review. I thought I was at work for a minute - . Again, thanks for everything.

[Thankful Jane]

When we wrote the book we tried to be very careful to verify and confirm things we wrote about others. There were only a few such accounts included. We had no idea that we needed to go so far as to confirm that the table in a story actually existed and that it was big enough to support BlessD’s memory of the event …

Honestly I felt ashamed, BlessD, when I saw that your account was called into question publicly by an ex LC leader and that there was even an attempt to undermine your story by saying first there was no such table in Dallas and suggesting maybe it was in Houston, then next that the table and room were not big enough. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me.

I know you are doing well and have been able to move on in life. I am so happy for this. I know you say you don't need apologies or expressions of sympathy, but the fact is that any other response to your story is not normal. I am sorry you had to have insult added to injury by having your story questioned. It made me think of someone who finally is able to come forward and report a shameful crime who finds themselves being questioned like they were the criminal.

If I were you I would have felt that once again I wasn’t important; something else was. In this case it seems that the prime directive quickly became minimizing your story or finding a way to make it go away. BlessD, I am sorry for this treatment. You didn’t deserve it.

You are right. It really doesn’t matter if it was 16, 12, 8 elders … What matters is that it happened and that everyone present assented to it happening. I read the article you referenced on Wikipedia. It speaks volumes. I hope and pray I will never be found in a condition that I violate my conscience to obey an “authority” that tells me to do something that hurts others.

Do we need to be discussing these things now? Yes, we do--mainly for the sake of those who have not yet been able to move on. Also for the sake of those who took part in such abuse, either by carrying it out or silently watching it.

So, to close the door on some of the questions, I spoke with someone today who confirmed to me that at the time this happened to you there definitely was a table in the dining room of the Big House that would easily handle 16 people, possibly more. Not only was the table large, the room was also quite large; they didn’t call it the Big House for nothing. For those who don’t know, the Big House sat on the adjoining property to the meeting hall of the Church in Dallas and I believe it was owned by the Church in Dallas.

Thankful Jane

[Nell]

"The difference between an abuse and a non-abusive system is that while hurtful behaviors might happen in both, it is not permissible to talk about problems in an abusive system. Hence, there is no healing hurts and abuses in the abusive system. Hence there is no healing and restoration after the wound has occurred, and the victim is made to feel at fault for questioning or pointing out the problem."

p. 32, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Honestly I felt ashamed, BlessD, when I saw that your account was called into question publicly by an ex LC leader and that there was even an attempt to undermine your story by saying first there was no such table in Dallas and suggesting maybe it was in Houston, then next that the table and room were not big enough. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me.

I'm sorry ... but I do not feel that this was fair to say about Hope and I must speak up here. This paragraph reads to me as an assault on Hope's integrity, which I find almost as offensive as negating BlessD's painful trauma. Hope has attempted to scour his memory for this event, even leaving open the possibility that his memory went into denial. How much more fair and honest can he be? He has continued to express a heartfelt compassion for the LC hurting, including BlessD, that I have never heard from any other LC leader.

Whether Hope was present, or not present, at this gathering, he has expressed responsibility for the church in Dallas where he eldered. If this has happened in Dallas, he wants to know. If he was there, he wants to know. Thus, he has examined many possibilities, whether rooms, people, numbers, attendants, scenarios, etc. not to discredit the sister BlessD, but to conclude a determination of facts which fits the church he knew so well. I saw nothing in his posts which indicated he was not searching for the truth. I viewed his search for details as a genuine endeavor to reconcile the events of her story. On my best day, I would also attempt to follow the same course.

I have tried to make this post as pleasant as I could, without throwing more fuel on the fire ...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

What matters is that it happened and that everyone present assented to it happening. I read the article you referenced on Wikipedia. It speaks volumes. I hope and pray I will never be found in a condition that I violate my conscience to obey an “authority” that tells me to do something that hurts others.

I agree that we surely need the Lord's mercy that we would never violate our conscience and hurt or abuse others, even while obeying an authority.

I don't believe this has been stated in either your painful tragedy (as written in ToG chapter one) or BlessD's story. Correct me if I am wrong. I have not read of any who were required to violate their conscience to obey an authority and hurt one of the Lord's children.

If I may do so, based on what I have read, put the two painful events together for comparison. There were three types of people in both events, firstly the evil perpetrator(s), secondly the victims, and thirdly the unsuspecting witnesses. As one has suggested, the witnesses may have been called in to legitimatize the actions and to be "trained in the Lord's way."

I place 99% of the responsibility on the perpetrators. They bear all the guilt. They are leaders who have failed us. Leaders are held to higher standards, and I do believe that these ones should be rightly called "evil workers."

The real question we face is what responsibility do the unsuspecting witnesses face? They were caught off guard. They did not know the facts. They get ushered into a room and witnessed things that left them in shock. They were not asked for their opinion.

I hope I have characterized these events fairly. Forgive me if my analysis is faulty. My underlying concern, which you may have imagined, are not just Texan events, but Ohio events too. Many more have been hurt by the abuse of authority. I must say that I have never witnessed such abuse towards sisters as we are discussing here, but the principle is the same. I have seen and heard many brothers get abused, yet rarely did I ever hear of a brother rising up in his defense. How did that system so disarm us? How much did our silence condemn us?

[blessD]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

When we wrote the book we tried to be very careful to verify and confirm things we wrote about others. There were only a few such accounts included. We had no idea that we needed to go so far as to confirm that the table in a story actually existed and that it was big enough to support BlessD’s memory of the event …

Honestly I felt ashamed, BlessD, when I saw that your account was called into question publicly by an ex LC leader and that there was even an attempt to undermine your story by saying first there was no such table in Dallas and suggesting maybe it was in Houston, then next that the table and room were not big enough. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me.

I know you are doing well and have been able to move on in life. I am so happy for this. I know you say you don't need apologies or expressions of sympathy, but the fact is that any other response to your story is not normal. I am sorry you had to have insult added to injury by having your story questioned. It made me think of someone who finally is able to come forward and report a shameful crime who finds themselves being questioned like they were the criminal.

If I were you I would have felt that once again I wasn’t important; something else was. In this case it seems that the prime directive quickly became minimizing your story or finding a way to make it go away. BlessD, I am sorry for this treatment. You didn’t deserve it.

You are right. It really doesn’t matter if it was 16, 12, 8 elders … What matters is that it happened and that everyone present assented to it happening. I read the article you referenced on Wikipedia. It speaks volumes. I hope and pray I will never be found in a condition that I violate my conscience to obey an “authority” that tells me to do something that hurts others.

Do we need to be discussing these things now? Yes, we do--mainly for the sake of those who have not yet been able to move on. Also for the sake of those who took part in such abuse, either by carrying it out or silently watching it.

So, to close the door on some of the questions, I spoke with someone today who confirmed to me that at the time this happened to you there definitely was a table in the dining room of the Big House that would easily handle 16 people, possibly more. Not only was the table large, the room was also quite large; they didn’t call it the Big House for nothing. For those who don’t know, the Big House sat on the adjoining property to the meeting hall of the Church in Dallas and I believe it was owned by the Church in Dallas.

Thankful Jane

Thanks Thankful Jane. You are right, I did not want any apology; and, for sure no pity. I somewhat regretted signing on here to say what happened really happened. [Is it such a big deal? I don't get it. It's not a rocket science that many injustices occured and boundaries were crossed. This absurd thing doesn't even touch the surface.] I don't see how my telling the truth here helped anyone. Especially, with all the "noise" about details.

YES! I have moved on and am very happy. Thanks, in part, to your support and friendship.

[Overflow]

In April 2008, while watching the news, I heard an interview that I couldn't erase from my mind. This was when the children of an extreme sect of Mormons from a compound in Texas were pulled for a brief time. The 'Lost Boys' were interviewed to gain some insight into the thinking of this group. As they spoke, my eyes and ears were locked! Sounds crazy, but I could relate so distinctly with there words.

The interviewer asked, "Now years after being cast out of your home, separated from your mother, I bet if you were to return to the compound, back into your home ~ your mother would embrace you and would be so relieved to see her son!" One of the 'Lost Boys' responded with these words, "No, she would turn and not acknowledge me. In order to understand this, you have to consider the Mormon religion ~ they strongly believe that serving the 'church' is the only thing that holds value in life, that this is a Mormon's entire purpose. To acknowledge me would be to deny my mother's calling." I picked my jaw up off the floor...for the first time I felt understood! I spent my first 13 years raised by an elder in the LC. Neglect!?!? In my home, I think that would be a mild way of expressing the relationship I (and my siblings) had with my parents.

Perhaps as time passes I'll feel comfortable to share more, but I have to say that I did live in Dallas for a number of years and firsthand I must say that things were DEFINITELY OFF, despite how pleasant of a picture some families may have attempted to paint! (And I speak of my family here, not HOPE's).

As an adult, reflecting, I think I've always known that things were very off with my family growing up, but God has just recently opened my eyes to the tight grasp this sin holds even today (especially my parents). I am confident that the LC (which they have now left) still today keeps them from enjoying the relationships that God intended them to have with their children and grandchildren.

I have found that there is nothing more freeing then the freedom found in confessing my sins! After all, only Christ's blood is sufficient, we ALL need the grace He offers!!! (And in my opinion, that doesn't mean arguing the facts when someone was horribly offended, sinned against and hurt! If its wrong, call it wrong...don't talk about the peculiarities of the situation! Nothing is more precious than humility - and if you don't remember this situation HOPE, I think it'd be real wise to pray for God to open your eyes for anything you can take ownership of and seek Christ's forgiveness!)

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

It's not an addiction. Wrong word. Addiction implies a craving, a need for another hit. This is NOT what LSMers have. They do have plenty of "hits" of Lee up on the shelves but, unlike true addicts, they don't ever use them. I'm speaking in generalities here, but I do know what I'm talking about. Very, very few LSMers actually read Lee's stuff anymore except when they have to. That is, they will read the HWMR since it's required reading (and many cheat on that) and they will peruse a Green Book when they need to plan a teaching or sharing. But otherwise, you could put those books behind a glass covering and no one would notice.

So what is it that causes a woman to wake up in a panic attack and relieve it by vowing to go back to "The Ministry"? It's fear, plain and simple. LSMers would argue it's the fear of the Lord. I believe it is fear from a lifetime of indoctrination. But it is not an addition, this I know.


SC

SC

That may be true in your neck of the woods, or with the people you know. But I still know people who tear into Lee's ministry as if they can't live without it. Like I said before, there is no one individual's view of the Living Stream Church which is the complete view.

I know there are large numbers of LSM Church goers who no longer read the material, any more than the average Catholic hasn't opened the Catechism since they were preparing for Confirmation. With the people I am talking about, it is definitely an addiction.

If you have something coursing through your veins that makes you feel secure and comfortable, and then when you are suddenly without it, you become fearful, and paranoid, I would say that is an addiction.

Anyway, I’m done with this one. We are going around in circles now.

That reminded me of a Jr. high football game I saw once. The middle linebacker laid hold of the ball carrier’s shirt tail and they both spun around and around in circles before it finally dawned on someone to broadside the runner.

Roger