The God-Men: An Inquiry into Witness Lee & the Local Church

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But ... otoh you know that LC folks were characterized with Jim Jones and the mass suicide. That was the sole intention of those books. Families were totally spooked about loved ones. Fear, not research or factual evidence, was the basic tool they used.
Listen, I lived through the hell of those two books and the damage it did to the gospel outreach to my friends and family.

I don't think that characterizing the LC with Jim Jones was the sole purpose of the this particular book. Of course there was a natural link between the two because of the timeframe, but that was the LC movement's fault as much as any of the "cult-busters". The LC was very secretive in general towards outsiders, and extremely uncooperative with Christians apologists. It made us look bad in front of the general public, and even worse to those Christians seeking to understand the inner workings of the group, and to verify our claims that we were just "ordinary Christians".

We are just delving into the beginning of the book, but so far I don't see any attempt to use fear as a tool or anything like that. So far it seems they did do a lot of research. As I noted recently, everything that has been quoted so far is actually surprisingly dead spot on. It seems they spent enough time around the group to see through a lot of the coded language. It was around this time that the Local Church produced that little booklet "The Beliefs and Practices of the Local Churches". This little tract was more of a work of fiction than a true description of the believes and practices. For example under the Q&A section, to the question "Who is your leader" the answer given is:Our unique leader is Christ. We have no official, permanent, organized human leadership. Furthermore, there is no hierarchy of any kind and no worldwide leader. We regard no person as infallible, and we do not follow anyone blindly. Duddy et al saw right through this smokescreen. They knew exactly who Lee was to the members and that he was the SOLE, unquestioned leader of the Movement.

I have a feeling that the more we delve into this book the more we will see that these guys actually did their homework. Yes, they probably made mistakes along the way, exaggerated certain things and maybe even did so in the wrong spirit, but in the end what we should be concerned with today is what they wrote true and factual? In some cases it may be, in other cases there may be some inaccuracies. But I think it will be worth our time and effort to got through it chapter by chapter and let the book speak for itself.

Thanks again to NFnL for taking the time and effort to guide us through this.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I don't think that characterizing the LC with Jim Jones was the sole purpose of the this particular book. .

It seems based on the timing this article may have been what prompted Duddy to do his research, write the book, and get a publisher. By timing you have to consider the timing of this article with the book as well as the timing of Jim Jones and the general interest in cults.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I don't think that characterizing the LC with Jim Jones was the sole purpose of the this particular book. Of course there was a natural link between the two because of the timeframe, but that was the LC movement's fault as much as any of the "cult-busters". The LC was very secretive in general towards outsiders, and extremely uncooperative with Christians apologists. It made us look bad in front of the general public, and even worse to those Christians seeking to understand the inner workings of the group, and to verify our claims that we were just "ordinary Christians".

I don't believe anyone, not LSM nor Duddy nor Sparks nor the Publishers, is "true, honorable, righteous, pure, lovely, or well-spoken of," (Phil 4.8) when it comes to these books about the Recovery. Many rotten, self-serving things were discovered by DCP during their discovery process. We should not in any way get the impression that Duddy or Sparks were sincere apologetics led by the Lord to serve His children.

I also disagree that the "the LC was very secretive in general towards outsiders." The churches in Ohio were very open to guests coming to check us out. We had nothing to hide. The Cleveland Press sent a reporter to investigate us and then ran disparaging front page articles on the CinCleve for a whole week. Perhaps you should change this statement to say "LSM was secretive..." or something you are more sure of.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We should not in any way get the impression that Duddy or Sparks were sincere apologetics led by the Lord to serve His children.

Well, we're just at the beginning of this book. I don't think we can make such a judgment as far as this book is concerned. I don't think it within the purview of this forum to be judging the entire life and times of Neil Duddy, I don't think there is enough time or interest for that. This book seems like it may be packed full of enough stuff for us to discuss for quite a while.

I also disagree that the "the LC was very secretive in general towards outsiders." The churches in Ohio were very open to guests coming to check us out. We had nothing to hide. The Cleveland Press sent a reporter to investigate us and then ran disparaging front page articles on the CinCleve for a whole week. Perhaps you should change this statement to say "LSM was secretive..." or something you are more sure of.

I was devout member of the Local Church of Witness Lee for around 20 years. I was in Orange County, the "headquarters", I lived and attended meetings for well over 10 years within 15 mins of the Ball Rd headquarters and Witness Lee's home. I lived with a number of what are now called "the blended brothers". I never lived in Ohio or the GLA, so if I said something about that area I would probably not be so sure. When I say the Local Church it is the Local Church of my experience. This is what I am sure of. Also, THIS is the Local Church that Neil Duddy researched and wrote about. I'm sorry that he didn't get out to the GLA, maybe he would have gotten a different impression. But the fact of the matter is that Witness Lee was THE leader, the ONLY teacher for the entire Movement, so Duddy naturally focused in on where Lee was based, and the followers that were in his immediate area.

Please, those of you who are going to get all riled up over what is in this book, feel free to skip this thread. Maybe it's not for you. There are many boards with many threads covering many different topics. That's the way the forum was designed and it was done on purpose. This way people can feel free to participate in the threads that are of concern and interest to them, but they are also free to just skip the ones that either don't interest them, or that they feel might by too contentious.

This is not, repeat NOT, a request that any particular persons refrain from participating in this thread. However, I will not let this thread be continually sidetracked by side issues that are not directly related to what is actually written in this book.

I hope ya'll understand.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Please, those of you who are going to get all riled up over what is in this book, feel free to skip this thread. Maybe it's not for you.

Who's getting all riled up?

Only thing that riles me up is a visit from Topiq.

[UntoHim]

Cool. Then all you have to is stay on topiq! No worries! Carry on!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The LC was very secretive in general towards outsiders, and extremely uncooperative with Christians apologists. It made us look bad in front of the general public, and even worse to those Christians seeking to understand the inner workings of the group, and to verify our claims that we were just "ordinary Christians".

From the Christian Research Institute Journal Fall 1988 Issue:

During the lawsuit [against SCP] the saints were warned and pressured to keep silent, and many voluntarily kept silent for the sake of the Lord's Recovery. On some occasions when outsiders sought to interview saints, only special ones were selected who were 'safe' to be interviewed."

If you recall from the old Bereans.net forum, the posting member known as "Octim" in one of his posts said he was interviewed by Francis Ball, but was too candid to be considered "safe".