The LCS Factor

[Paul Cox]

It can't be overstated just how much peer pressure plays in the control of the Local Church. If you say that television watching is prohibited in the "Church Life" (in the past) LC defenders will gladly ask you to point out in any of the writings of "The Ministry" where such prohibitions are outlined. Of course they are not.

Peer pressure worked its magic in the Local Church and still does in the Living Stream Church. The small circle around Lee wanted to please him, and he knew how to make them feel they should. An example is when Lee asked what was going on when hope decided to leave the room.

Then, of course, the bigger circle of "The Brothers" wanted to be well pleasing to those closely connected to Lee. And almost everybody in the local meetings are always concerned with how they are viewed by “The Brothers.” Heaven forbid that word should get back to “The Brothers” that you are a little contrary to the uniform marching unit.

If you say there is control in the Local Church, again you will be eagerly pointed to where Lee said he does not exercise such control. But control was indeed exercised, and is exercised more today than ever.

When we were young, my wife and I missed a meeting one night to go grocery shopping. Because of my work and because we, well, were out of food, we ended up having to go on a Tuesday night when we were expected to be in the prayer meeting.

The next time one of the leading brothers saw me, he said, "I missed you in the meeting, brother." I told him we went grocery shopping, and he said, "Oh."

Well, during the very next meeting, I was sitting on the front row, when this brother brought up the possibility of "someone" going grocery shopping on a meeting night. I wanted to get under my chair. But...I never missed another meeting to go to the grocery store, and I'm sure almost nobody else at that meeting did either.

But I've discovered that the peer pressure only works if you let it. In one of my recent encounters with a LC brother, he tried to use some of that stuff on me. I just ignored him, and he had to change his tune.

But that’s easy for me now, since I am out of that intensive atmosphere. For those who are still there, we must sympathize with them. It’s not something easy to overcome for the average person. It’s the same power that drives most of the youth in every generation to do the things they do, no matter how wacky their parents may think they are acting.

Roger

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Roger

It can't be overstated just how much peer pressure plays in the control of the Local Church. ... Peer pressure worked its magic in the Local Church and still does in the Living Stream Church.

If you say there is control in the Local Church, again you will be eagerly pointed to where Lee said he does not exercise such control. But control was indeed exercised, and is exercised more today than ever.

When we were young, my wife and I missed a meeting one night to go grocery shopping. ...we ended up having to go on a Tuesday night when we were expected to be in the prayer meeting.

The next time one of the leading brothers saw me, he said, "I missed you in the meeting, brother." I told him we went grocery shopping, and he said, "Oh."

Well, during the very next meeting, I was sitting on the front row, when this brother brought up the possibility of "someone" going grocery shopping on a meeting night. I wanted to get under my chair. ...But I've discovered that the peer pressure only works if you let it. In one of my recent encounters with a LC brother, he tried to use some of that stuff on me. I just ignored him, and he had to change his tune.

Wow Roger ...ok..First things first.

That peer pressure 'magic' the LC uses is called WITCHCRAFT !! Many in the Christian community..(not all) KNOW about Witchcraft in the church.

Read the account of Jezebel & Ahab..she had a controlling personality/spirit. She used witchcraft too. The spirit of Jezebel is very prevalant in the Christian church today and we saw it first hand in action in the LC. We didn't know it though.

Do a Google search on the Jezebel spirit..if you haven't already.

2ndly. You were CONDEMNED for telling the TRUTH ??? The TRUTH sets us free but that spirit of Jezebel did not set YOU Free back then ..because the Jezebel spirit is NOT the Spirit of TRUTH from Christ Jesus.

It manipulates people and disguises itself in religiousity. And the LC is one of the MOST Religious institutions out there! Just think about how everyone prays the same way in the LC...how they TALK the same way..how they have their OWN Terminology.


Anyway, back to topic... That controlling spirit intimidated you...made you feel 'guilty'. You did NOT SIN! The Spirit convicts us. God condemns SIN. To those who are IN Christ Jesus, there is NO CONDEMNATION! By telling the TRUTH of where you were, you did not sin. You did not lie! You were IN Christ Jesus, telling the TRUTH!

The ACCUSER entered in and tried to condemn you from the PITS of Hell itself for telling the TRUTH!


I PRAY that person..'brother' who used you to make you feel guilty has REPENTED!!!! May the LORD shine His Light on his Sin!

Thankfully, you ARE set FREE. For where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is Liberty! And the Spirit of the LORD is surely with you Roger!..for YOU are BLESSED and HIGHLY FAVORED by the Most HIGH GOD!!!

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Apparently during the big "rebellion" in Anaheim in the late 1980's Lee held his bi annual conference as scheduled. Many who had signed up before the blow up were chronically absent. When asked why he was missing the "training meeting" one guy said: "Because I was busy cutting my lawn!" That sorta summed up the lack of credibility Lee and LSM had by that time with many in Anaheim.

[Arizona]

The more I read the posts on this Forum the more I realize just how unique the LC experience. And personally unique for each individual participant. And an experience that is hard to understand apart from its historical context as well.

I dont think anyone who wasnt there could ever understand it, and could never be qualified to critique it properly.

I raised children in the LC. To this day I appreciate very much some of those young brothers (who are now no longer young) who spent time with my children when my kids were teen-agers. I refuse to denigrate their service. The picture of the LC life was not what some here seem to want to paint.

I know for sure that if I had it to do over I would certainly do some things differently. I would have accepted much more responsibility as a father, and I would have depended far less on the corporate church life. That is my fault,,,, not theirs. Living without television or christmas or anything else is not child abuse. In children's meetings we took kids fishing and to the snow, etc High School kids participated in extra curricular things. Many of us parents were just damaged people out of the Sixties scene who had no clue how to raise children so we did the best we knew how,,, and the LC helped in many ways in that endeavor.

It wasnt all bad. Now was it?

Arizona

[finallyprettyokay]

It wasnt all bad. Now was it?

It was alot bad. Few things are all one way or the other. So, no, probably not all bad. But alot bad. People got hurt there. Including kids.


fpo

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Arizona any child raised by alcoholic parents could quite easily understand the LCS and be qualified to discuss it. When addiction is present the underlying similarities are evident regardless of the substance involved.

[Paul Cox]

Arizona,

I'm glad that you didn't get hurt in the Local Church, and I certainly didn't want to say that it was all bad. But the bad that was bad was really bad.

To be quite honest, you can grab any group from the pages of history, no matter how radical they were, and find quite a bit good in them. There will always be those who only want to paint a pretty picture of where they came from.

"The picture of the LC life was not what some here seem to want to paint"

Maybe not for you. But it isn't fair for you to want to denigrate the testimony of those who didn't have your same experience. Our experiences were real, and continue to be real to this day.

Many can tell you that their children were eventually lost because of the way they were “taken care of” in the Local Church. Many of the participants on the other forum were themselves children in the Local Church life, and suffered immensely in the wilderness before they finally picked themselves up and turned the Lord like they had never before. Other are still wandering around.

If they were only our experiences, that could easily be called hearsay. But the fact is, the way the Living Stream Church has treated those who disagree with them is a matter of recorded history. No one could sit through the mock trial that was held at Whistler and say this is a group that just abides in "oneness" bliss.

No one could read about how brothers were treated in the late eighties, mainly over a cover up of sexual impropriety, and say, "Boy, must be a whole lotta good goin on over there."

We are not here painting anything. We are telling it the way we experienced it, and saw it. I know this is a lot to stomach for some who would rather make nice with LSM. But I don't think that is what forums like this are about.

So far as taking responsibility is concerned, may I suggest that you can now say that you should have taken more because you are saying it in hindsight. At the time, brother, I have little doubt that the peer pressure was what kept you from taking more responsibility.

And that, my brother, was my point.

Having said all that I would have to agree with you about most of the brothers. You spoke of the ones who took care of your children. I know hundreds of brothers like that. They are precious indeed.

But the fact remains that LSM is corrupt, errant, and wants to cover up a dark history, while going forth with quite another image. These dear brother who are precious are either having their heads in the sand, just don’t know what’s going on, or don’t want to know. They continue to stand with clinched fists and shout a big AMEN to EVERYTHING that the Blended Brothers say. Nevertheless, that should not prevent us from telling the truth.

Roger

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Roger

Arizona,

I'm glad that you didn't get hurt in the Local Church, and I certainly didn't want to say that it was all bad. But the bad that was bad was really bad.

"The picture of the LC life was not what some here seem to want to paint"

Maybe not for you. But it isn't fair for you to want to denigrate the testimony of those who didn't have your same experience. Our experiences were real, and continue to be real to this day.

Many can tell you that their children were eventually lost because of the way they were “taken care of” in the Local Church. Many of the participants on the other forum were themselves children in the Local Church life, and suffered immensely in the wilderness before they finally picked themselves up and turned the Lord like they had never before. Other are still wandering around.

No one could read about how brothers were treated in the late eighties, mainly over a cover up of sexual impropriety, and say, "Boy, must be a whole lotta good goin on over there."

We are not here painting anything. We are telling it the way we experienced it, and saw it. I know this is a lot to stomach for some who would rather make nice with LSM. But I don't think that is what forums like this are about.

So far as taking responsibility is concerned, may I suggest that you can now say that you should have taken more because you are saying it in hindsight. At the time, brother, I have little doubt that the peer pressure was what kept you from taking more responsibility.

And that, my brother, was my point.

Having said all that I would have to agree with you about most of the brothers. You spoke of the ones who took care of your children. I know hundreds of brothers like that. They are precious indeed.

But the fact remains that LSM is corrupt, errant, and wants to cover up a dark history, while going forth with quite another image. These dear brother who are precious are either having their heads in the sand, just don’t know what’s going on, or don’t want to know. They continue to stand with clinched fists and shout a big AMEN to EVERYTHING that the Blended Brothers say. Nevertheless, that should not prevent us from telling the truth.

Roger

Dear brother and sisters,

Could we step back and take a deep breath. djohnson, who is no friend, started the thread with a very spectacular charge regarding the children of dear saints who happened to have been in the local churches. “I have learned that among those who grew up in the LCS many face social issues. Some that I am familiar with are: alcoholism, homosexuality, sexual promiscuity, divorce, paying for sex i.e. engaging in services of prostitutes, infidelity, porn addiction.” He adds, “My guess is that once the hypocrisy of the leaders became well known something "snapped" in a lot of the youth. A subculture that was restricting them thus became a culprit in their lustful pursuits.

Then many of the forum members followed with sweeping statements which summed up the local churches and the believers who participated in them. When others such as Terry, Arizona, Peter Debelak, and OBW, Mike and myself attempted to add some moderation they were dismissed out of hand. Yet they gave their experiences and were not agents of the LCM sent here to cover up the real situation. Arizona was immediately dismissed by one of the dear forum members as a current LSM member.

Roger, I feel the above posters are being denigrated and being subjected to a kind of peer pressure.

Forum members, do not let djohnson stir up trouble and destroy the forum and fellowship as he has in other settings. He wants you all to admit you are addicts. He wants you all to admit you are terrible parents with terrible children and hopes that all that was ever any good, testimony or persons would be discredited and buried. He wants you all to disappear. If we join his kind of wild sweeping condemnation, we will self destruct.

Arizona made a very simple and true statement when he declared, “Many of us parents were just damaged people out of the Sixties scene who had no clue how to raise children so we did the best we knew how,,, and the LC helped in many ways in that endeavor.”

The Local Churches collected a lot of peculiar people who were damaged in some way or other. They applied things often in an extreme way. Some of the leaders did not practice proper leadership because they were themselves damaged and odd. The story that Roger related is a classic on authority abuse. Never should a leader use a meeting to shoot a silver bullet at a dear saint. I am all for exposing such practices.

The main leadership had very serious flaws in teaching and in practice. Nell declared that there was a class system. She stated that I could get away with behavior that a single sister could not. In the Body of Christ there should never be such a thing. I desire to be rescued from all my bad practices and am more than willing to have my specific faults pointed out and condemned. I believe that the specific bad fruit of some of the leaders and churches should be pointed out. I want to know the truth, both the clear biblical truth and the truth of the history. But I also am aware of the enemy’s practice of cursing. Satan, the accuser of the brethern, will accuse in broad sweeping charges. The Holy Spirit shines light in a very specific way and not only convicts of sin but offers forgiveness and a fresh start.

I am convinced that the original intent of this thread was to curse us all. Please take this fellowship to the Lord.

djohnson please repent from your way of seeking to discredit, belittle, condemn and destroy. I know these are strong words and I do not write them lightly.


In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Roger

The next time one of the leading brothers saw me, he said, "I missed you in the meeting, brother." I told him we went grocery shopping, and he said, "Oh."

Well, during the very next meeting, I was sitting on the front row, when this brother brought up the possibility of "someone" going grocery shopping on a meeting night. I wanted to get under my chair. But...I never missed another meeting to go to the grocery store, and I'm sure almost nobody else at that meeting did either.

Roger, we all have stories like yours. I remember one brothers' meeting with TC. He asked where one young brother from Akron was. He had told his elder that he had a family reunion he didn't want to miss. TC was furious, blasted all family reunions, and made an example out of him publicly, for all to learn. How dare he miss that gathering.

Think about this. How convenient for leaders to make required meetings around their own schedules. The results are inevitable -- brothers are forced to become "secretive" and often tell "white lies" in order to escape judgment. The result often is just hypocrisy.

One time I was serving the children during the prayer meeting. The brother over me would never allow any of us to go to Cedar Point amusement park. But while I am caring for the children, his young daughter starts telling the other kids what a fun time they had at Cedar Point. My jaw dropped. What hypocrisy! Demand from others what you do in secret. Kids say the darndest things! It was amazing what "secrets" leaked out from the saints' kids.

You can fool some of the brothers all the time, and all the brothers some of the time, but you can't fool the kids!

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One time I was serving the children during the prayer meeting. The brother over me would never allow any of us to go to Cedar Point amusement park. But while I am caring for the children, his young daughter starts telling the other kids what a fun time they had at Cedar Point. My jaw dropped. What hypocrisy! Demand from others what you do in secret. Kids say the darndest things! It was amazing what "secrets" leaked out from the saints' kids.

You can fool some of the brothers all the time, and all the brothers some of the time, but you can't fool the kids!

Brother, sounds like you picked up all the germs from the children...

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Roger, we all have stories like yours. I remember one brothers' meeting with TC. He asked where one young brother from Akron was. He had told his elder that he had a family reunion he didn't want to miss. TC was furious, blasted all family reunions, and made an example out of him publicly, for all to learn. How dare he miss that gathering.

Think about this. How convenient for leaders to make required meetings around their own schedules. The results are inevitable -- brothers are forced to become "secretive" and often tell "white lies" in order to escape judgment. The result often is just hypocrisy.

One time I was serving the children during the prayer meeting. The brother over me would never allow any of us to go to Cedar Point amusement park. But while I am caring for the children, his young daughter starts telling the other kids what a fun time they had at Cedar Point. My jaw dropped. What hypocrisy! Demand from others what you do in secret. Kids say the darndest things! It was amazing what "secrets" leaked out from the saints' kids.

You can fool some of the brothers all the time, and all the brothers some of the time, but you can't fool the kids!

What most defenders of the Living Stream Church don't understand is that Titus was just bringing to full manifestation what Witness Lee tried to introduce subtly.

In other words, as one brother put it, "Brother Lee always goes fishing with a straight hook." That is to say that Witness Lee would bend open up a hook, and then if anyone got caught, he could say, "Who me, I didn't set out to catch anyone. Did anyone see a conventional hook set out by me?"

We should all take a close look at Titus and what he did in the Midwest (shaming and all). He was only being so bold as to put into open practice those things which he had observed in his, "Acting God," "Oracle," "One Trumpet for the Age," Apostle for the Age" - Witness Lee.

Roger

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Roger

We should all take a close look at Titus and what he did in the Midwest (shaming and all). He was only being so bold as to put into open practice those things which he had observed in his, "Acting God," "Oracle," "One Trumpet for the Age," Apostle for the Age" - Witness Lee.
Roger

Right Roger. TC witnessed WL and emulated all the good and the bad.

I would say something even further.

Three years ago while researching Brethren history, I realized that we had a systemic disease -- I called it "bullying" then --on all levels (local, regional, national, and global) but that same disease affected the Brethren too. Not only that, the same disease can be found in other parts of church history, and in the N.T. too -- with the works of the Judaizers.

This thread could be considered a fulfillment of Paul's word, "beware of dogs."