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Apologetic discussions Apologetic Discussions Regarding the Teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee |
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10-22-2012, 04:53 PM | #1 |
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1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
On different threads some have posted concerning whether Witness Lee was a false teacher/prophet or not. Examples given are the ground of locality and the minister of the age doctrines.
I think another possibility is the way Lee interpreted 1 Cor. 15:45. He quoted this verse constantly (usually only the second half). Many times he was teaching on some other Bible portion and then he would insert this verse. This was one of his unique revelations, that Christ became the life-giving Spirit in resurrection. And poor poor Christianity doesn't see this, etc. But reading the actual chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians, verse 45 just doesn't seem to be saying this. It's a chapter about what bodily form we will have in resurrection, and in that context, Christ became a life-giving spirit. We will be like Him. It's obviously important that the actual text (or at least the translations I've seen) say "a" not "the," and that usually "spirit" is not capitalized. What do other posters and lurkers think of this? Having been out of the local church for many years, I actually think that the critics are right to consider Lee a type of modalist. Where in Christianity (or in Christian history) is it taught that the second of the trinity became the third of the trinity in resurrection? But I admit I don't really understand this verse. Could others tell me what they think? Was this a verse that Lee used improperly, to build himself up? Or is it possible that he had real insight into the proper meaning? Thanks. |
10-22-2012, 10:17 PM | #2 | |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
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This is the question. There was so much anointing on the speaking on Christ being the life-giving Spirit, and on the singing on Him being so, that we early- on had no question about this. 2 Cor. 3:17 seems to support his word in 1 Cor. 15:45b when Paul says, "now the Lord is that Spirit.....". the Lord, Jesus that is, is that Spirit....What Spirit? We don't want to end up with two Spirits.... When Witness Lee's and the blending brothers' full fellowship on this subject is given, it is weighty and mysterious even though in reading through ch 15 of 1 Corinthians that verse doesn't seem as if it is of great significance. But it is there in the Bible and we have to deal with it. What does it mean? I read over this chapter again and again in 2010-2011 and more recently; I was amazed at Paul and what he was talking about. I couldn't understand him again and again. In fact in reading 1 and 2 Cor. this year I wondered about one verse after another, wondering where he got these things. He is saying things many times in these two books that are hard to understand. And, in other books as well. This was the apostle who said, "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows." He was speaking of himself in the third person and not wanting to boast as it would appear if he spoke about himself directly. So this "guy" Paul I don't fool with and neither do I fool with Witness Lee on this subject and many other subjects, including his teaching that "God became man that man could become God - in life and nature, not in the Godhead. To follow his and the blended brothers thorough coverage of this subject and on the life-giving Spirit might be convincing to all who care to follow the word of God, not human logic. I believe Norm Geisler and Ron Rhodes found this out in humiliating fashion and have not been heard from or seen again in the same ring as the blending brothers. (Of course, I've got a good hold on the Achilles heal of the leaders I have just lifted up. They have two sides - and both sides should receive fair treatment since they do assume the position of global authorities in the church of God, in spite of their litany of grievous offenses brought to their attention to no avail.) |
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10-22-2012, 11:04 PM | #3 |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
Hi Curious,
Welcome. The best answer you are going to get regarding 1 Corinthians 15:45 is to ask the HOLY SPIRIT Himself. He might lead you to google the question if you simply cannot get a clear understanding. Now for my thoughts: I hope you are very clear the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD yet have different functions. I know I got the revelation from an example used in the LC back in the day: water comes in 3 forms, liquid, ice and vapor. It is still water...but their functions are different. In the last several years, I have studied the -function- of God the Holy Spirit, Who is the Life Giving Spirit of Jesus and the Father. Jesus is GOD and we read in Isaiah 9:6 the Son is the Mighty God and the Everlasting Father. When Jesus walked on the earth, while He taught His followers, healed the sick, performed various kinds of miracles, revealing Himself to them, He could not live inside them. While He is on the THRONE, His Presence is here with us and His Persona, through His Spirit lives in us. In my experience I sometimes am empowered. His Presence on me is sometimes very strong, thus Jesus through His Spirit is giving me Newness of Life, thus the Lord Jesus, Who is empowering me is the Life Giving Spirit in me. IMO, Lee confused people instead of pointing people to Christ. He did not want us to think for ourselves much less study the Word for ourselves. Christian history does not teach us the Word of God, it only explains how religious institutions came into existence. Only in the KJ is there a clear scripture describing the Trinity. It is 1 John 5:7: For there are Three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the WORD and the Holy Spirit and these Three are ONE. The following verse is very interesting too. And there are Three that bear witness on earth, the Spirit, the Water and the Blood. And these Three agree IN ONE. Blessings, Carol G
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10-23-2012, 06:54 AM | #4 | |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
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The problem is that the second half of that verse so perfectly describes the reality of the body of the resurrected Christ. It is a spirit. A "spiritual" body as stated just a verse or so earlier. And since Christ gives life, it is life-giving as the inhabitant of that body (one and the same) gives life. The fallacy in Lee's assertion that it "must be" that Jesus becomes the Holy Spirit is the presumption that because the Holy Spirit has the word "spirit" in the name, that He is the sole possessor of being spirit. God is spirit. The Father is Spirit. The Son is spirit. The Spirit is spirit. It is a form of equivocation to insist that one use must be the same in all cases. But it is not so. You don't even need a degree in theology to see it. As for "so much anointing" on any of Lee's speaking, are you sure it was anointing? Might it have just been something new and shiny? Something that tickled our ears with its speciality? It was full of lofty words. It used a lot of spiritual-sounding speech. Those sentence-long, overly adjectivized phrases — were they really something so special in themselves? Or were they designed to give a sense of awe without giving anything solid?
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10-23-2012, 07:28 AM | #5 | |
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1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
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But here is where Lee failed to boast in Christ ... and Christ alone. Lee began to boast in himself and his own ministry to the point that the anointing he had, became no longer a blessing but a curse. Theologically, he was bent on proving that all other ministers besides himself were degraded "Tri-theists," and he himself had God-given license to push the envelope further and further until he became the "acting God" on earth.
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10-23-2012, 07:51 AM | #6 | |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
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I'm not saying I know the answers - that's why I'm bringing it up for discussion. But the context of 1 Cor. 15 doesn't seem to back up this claim. It makes more sense to say that Jesus became a life-giving spirit, in the sense that he had a spiritual body or form. Not that His nature, title, or person was changed. This is why Lee was accused of modalism, because he indicated that Christ changed into the life-giving Spirit in His resurrection. I can see that Christ sent the Holy Spirit, but not that He became the life-giving Spirit (a new version of the Holy Spirit). What's sad for me, Ohio, is that there were numerous times I experienced what appeared to be an amazing revelation under Lee's ministry, and this was an example (Christ becoming the life-giving Spirit). And I now think that it was most likely a false teaching. The emotional enthusiasm was deceptive. |
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10-23-2012, 07:58 AM | #7 |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
**** MODERATOR NOTE **** The Bible does not prohibit identifying the Son with the Spirit. In fact, in some places it seems to encourage it. I believe in some ways the Son is not the Spirit (they are distinct), and in some ways he is the Spirit (they are the same God). How this all works I don't know, but I have some ideas. However, we are not going to ultimately solve this puzzle or even reach agreement on it. I think rather what is important is to focus on the actual pitfalls of pushing one or the other side too far. I think they are in general: (1) Pushing the ONE side too far diminishes the relational aspect of God. (Not that it leads to the theological construct called "modalism.") (2) Pushing the THREE side too far seems to place artificial boundaries on our experience. (Not that it leads to the theological construct called "tri-theism.") So please, avoid the abstract and theological and focus on ideas which are actually going to help people. This is not to say that this discussion cannot be fruitful. Let's just try to take positions that further healthy relationships with God and others, rather than fight for theological ground. And while doing so, be thankful Justyn Martyr of the other board is not here to call everyone a cultist who doesn't believe his version of the Trinity. Thank you. We now resume our regular programming. **** END MODERATOR NOTE **** |
10-23-2012, 08:02 AM | #8 |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
My name is Ohio, and I approve this message.
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10-23-2012, 08:40 AM | #9 | |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
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Lee was accused of modalism because he used hyperbole to stretch his point and ridicule to denigrate others' teaching. That does not discredit what we received from I Cor 15.45. Another teaching of Lee's which greatly helped me was from Rom 8.6. Lee said, "the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace." He made this verse active. Most however had taught, "the mind of the Spirit is life...," or "spiritually minded..." By making this verse active, it became alive and useful to me, and the Lord as the Spirit became so real and near. I cannot answer how the Lord can be the Spirit. How can God be One and distinctly Three? There is no way to humanly explain this. The Bible doesn't attempt to reconcile it either. Recently I read a fascinating book about a young Ohio boy which has altered my old LC views of God, based on WL extremes. God is wonderful!
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10-23-2012, 09:00 AM | #10 |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
I think a key to insight into the Trinity is to consider it from the standpoint of conscious beings and relationships, rather than from the standpoint of numbers and substances.
In other words, the reality of the Trinity finds its source in the fact that God is a self-conscious personality who has a relationship with himself and wants to share that relationship with others (us). God (Father) in eternity past shared a relationship with his image of himself (Son). On the one hand that image was himself, and on the other hand it was distinct from himself. The relationship itself was a third entity (Spirit). God thought, This is such a good experience, why not share it with others? So he created us. |
10-23-2012, 11:03 AM | #11 | |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
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I like relationships because while real they are somewhat ineffable and unknowable. I like how Jesus said, "the believers shall be one, even as I and the Father are one" in John 17. To me that doesn't mean "aron becomes Igzy" a la 1 Cor 15:45(b) but rather that there is another level of reality wating for me/us. And it may be closer than we think. Anyway, mental gymnastics to somehow box in the Trinity seem like pointless exercises. But a simple story like what is quoted above, is fun to consider. BTW, and in the same vein, the prayers of the righteous man in the Psalms was amazing to me when you consider the relationship of the Son with the Father. Look how the psalmist loved God's word, as shown in Psalm 119, for example! And similarly Jesus said, "Every word I speak comes from the Father". How much Jesus loved His Father! We humans are like the prodigal sons, on our hands and knees, eating husks with the hogs. We don't remember who or what we are or where we are from. Suddenly we hear the voice of the Son calling us, and we remember our Father, and we get up on our feet and begin our journey home. Incredible! This voice is in God's word. It calls us, and we hear it. But is it something that we can mentally comprehend, to take apart and reconstruct like a LEGO toy? I doubt it.
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10-23-2012, 12:30 PM | #12 | |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
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We were instructed that all we had to do was "flick the switch" to turn on the light and thus activate God. It was all so "scientific," one of his favorite words. There was no discussion about a relationship between us and God. God was an electric power for us to employ for our every need. Just turn Him on when you need Him! Your life might be in chaos, you may be arguing with your wife, you might be failing at school or work, you might be screaming at your kids, but alas, it's meeting time, time to "flick the switch," and turn on God. We now controlled God, and how exciting is that! Just fire up your spirit when necessary, and God is immediately activated. Just flick the switch by calling His name or pray-reading a verse. Soon all we needed to do was shout and repeat some outline, something called PSRP, which supposedly made us uniquely the Lord's Recovery. Something, however, got seriously lost in all the excitement. In the midst of this new "science," many seemed to lose sight of obeying the Lord, worshiping God, following the anointing, studying the scriptures, and so forth. Our relationship with God suffered. Our ears to hear His voice were damaged. Being a mechanical engineer, specializing in robotics, apparently I was particularly vulnerable to receiving this new mechanized science. Fortunately for me, there was some resistance in the GLA to these endless waves of nonsense flowing out of Anaheim. I was blessed to know many brothers who preferred to find God in the word of God rather than in Witness Lee.
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10-23-2012, 08:16 PM | #13 | |
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Re: ]The Triune God in Relationships
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The Triune God in Relationships Paul shares, as "children of light" and being "light in the Lord", we have to be careful how we walk, "knowing what the will of the Lord is" - to walk in love, submitting to one another, as Christ did, and gave Himself up for us, producing a sweet-smelling savor to God. And, he ends a letter to the Corinthians with the grace, the love, and the fellowship of the triune God to be with them all. |
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10-24-2012, 06:13 AM | #14 | ||||
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
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Like OBW said, did Paul suddenly have an "out of body" experience and insert 1 Corinthians 15:45 (b) out of the context of the narrative, or was he telling a story in which that phrase was a subordinate part? Who are you going to believe, Witness Lee's version, or that of Paul? If the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews says "We see Jesus" in the Psalms (and elsewhere in the OT) and Witness Lee says, "No, we don't", which story do we follow? If the Bible speaks about righteousness and Lee speaks about "God's economy", which one are you going to pay attention to?
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10-24-2012, 08:58 PM | #15 |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
Maybe we all need a teleprompter to keep us out of trouble by thinking too hard.
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10-25-2012, 06:46 AM | #16 | |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
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I had a lot of good moments there in the LSM franchises, and hopefully some spiritual growth. It was surely better than the world which I had left, but anytime I get all misty-eyed about my time there I just remember things like that, and I keep going. I can't possibly put too much distance between myself and that bunch.
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10-25-2012, 07:30 AM | #17 | |
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:45 - what does it really mean?
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