The LCS Factor

Hope · 08-14-2008, 07:21 PM

Hello Dear brothers and sisters,

I must take a different position. Much of what I am reading sounds strange and foreign to me. Here are a few of the statements that stand out.

The following are from Thankful Jane. I will high light in blue her statements and my comments will be in black.

LC teachings were off concerning marriage and family. How many Christian churches can you go to today that teach you the church comes before marriage and family? Where is this in the Bible?

Of course that is no where in the Bible. I did hear from some like Samuel Chang such statements but this teaching was among those that came from peculiar personalities which had a lot of influence. I mentioned this phenomenon in my history. I should have developed it much more. I was afraid I would come across as too negative and decided to let this part of the history go. This thread illustrated that that was probably a mistake. There were a lot of odd teachings that gained some traction here and there. The anti-marriage stuff was ridiculous. I shot it down whenever I could. The baloney about how miserable the wives could make the husbands and visa versus was one of my favorite targets. I would never let it go by. I would counter about my own experience with Sheryl and report about many other very happily married couples.

We were taught that if you take care of the Lord and the church, God will take care of your marriage and children. This is clearly not biblical, but we bought it. I remember in my first years in the LC being told that Samuel Chang said the most important thing we could do for our children was to be consecrated. That translated into consecrated to the church.
If there was an event for them (school or recreational) and a church event at the same time, the church event took precedence.

I think here we have a clear example of the extreme practice of some of the local churches based on the extreme character of the local elders. Ray Graver in Houston and James Barber in OK City would certainly take this position. The church agenda was everything to them. On the other hand, in Dallas, Sheryl and I would make sure at least one of us attended any of our children's activities. Usually it was both. I always believed it is a heart matter. We should certainly put the Lord Jesus Christ first in our heart and loyalty. If being true to Him and serving the gospel or the saints, required me to miss a middle school football game, I trust my decision is made. But neglect of the children is not in question. We must care for them.

One time my husband tried to be an assistant coach for a Little League baseball team of one of our sons, but the baseball schedule and the meeting schedule didn't mesh, so the coaching went out the window. Same with the time the Little League games were played. Same with every single thing our children were involved in.

Twice I coached my sons little league/Pony league teams. It required that I miss some meetings and I was an elder and full time brother. There were two other boys from the church on the team. We had a great time. I was the assistant coach. I will never forget one of the parents telling me that my being a coach had saved the experience for his son and I was the only reason they finished the season. That really meant a lot to me as I did believe I was in the Lord's will to help that group and it was an opportunity to be a witness for Christ. Two of the boys, friends of my sons, came to know Christ as savior. They both came from unbelieving homes and never attended any type of church. Of course, I enjoyed it. Since I was a former baseball player, I did show off at times and demonstrate some skills that those kids had never seen. My sons, who were both on one of the teams, relished it when I would toss a ball in the air and drive it 375 feet in the air or demonstrate how to throw a ball harder and farther than the boys had ever seen.

Witness Lee said we should never have regrets
I am thankful every day that the Lord has had mercy on my children. The one thing I did right was not cram the program down their throats. If they didn't want to be involved, they were free not to be. I never made them "call on the Lord," etc.

I am still waiting for the day when I hear an ex-LC leader say, "It was not biblical to teach that the Lord would take care of our families if we took care of the church. That teaching was damaging and hurt a lot of people. I am sorry."

I whole hardily agree!!!

I hope I never taught that. Someone let me know if I personally ever said something like that or seemed to agree if someone did say something like that. If I ever did, I am sorry sorry sorry, my bad, my bad my bad.

Husbands were looked down on if they did anything to help their wives

Really???

Maybe one of those strange notions that some brought in? I remember several times Sheryl and I discussed certain odd practices among couples from Taiwan. We attributed it to their Chinese culture. By the way the Chinese culture and view of marriage is not based on anything in the scriptures. Of course the culture of a southern peasant is of no more value than the Chinese culture but please keep in mind that the southern culture has been very much influenced and shaped by the teachings of Christ. In the Bible, marriage and the family is big, big , big. On many occasions when we were counseling couples we contradicted WL or something they had heard and shared our own experience and what the scriptures taught. We spoke with many couples before their marriage and with many after their marriage to give them counseling. I never remember ever ever saying something like put the church first. Somebody let me know if I did. If so. please erase it forever.

From Finallyprettyokay

I wrote in another thread about his teaching of children being 'wrappers'.

I never heard this until I read your earlier post. I believe it was actually reported to you by an elder. Maybe Lee taught it and maybe something just came up in conversation and this man picked up on some cute expression and wanted to impress someone. I saw that happen on many occassions.

As other posters have written, children watched their parents burn pictures of them.

I never burned anything. My understanding of the passage in Acts was the new believers burned things related to magic, demons etc. I did not have anything like that. I had been a Christian for several years as had my wife and when the burning "flow" hit Texas we had nothing to burn and felt no complusion to prove anything to anyone. I did see some in Houston burn some items they believed had occupied their heart. I never saw pictures of children being burned but I did hear of that happening in California. I find it hard to believe that someone would burn pictures of their children in front of their children. That is scandolous and replusive.

I would ask everyone to use some discretion about painting the bad family image on everyone. It is a little libilous. I agree with Dennis that it can be counter productive.

By the way, we took family vacations. We took our kids to Penny Whistle Park and to water parks all the time. We made the pilgramage to Six Flags over Texas at least twice a year. That was usually the low point of my year as my wife made me ride the rides with my daughter. I have a very sensitive inner ear but Sheryl enjoyed watching me turn green and stagger off of the rides.

Of course we had to go to the Texas State Fair, a great time was had by all and we passed out gospel tracts. Birthday parties is a big thing for my wife and still is for the grandchildren.

What about Christmas? Hang on. My mother opposed Christmas. She was an improverished share cropper and migrant worker. She told us how she dreaded the first day of school after the xmas-New Years vacation as she would be forced to lie about what Santa Clause brought her. She would have actually have gotten nothing. Her family of seven childrens celebrated xmas morning by each being given a half an orange and a cup of fruit cocktail. She was very offended by the Santa Clause myth and believed it undermined faith in Christ. She got in troubles a few times because we kids would tell our friends there was no Santa Clause and that our mother had told us so. So I was not a Christmas celebrator long before I ever heard of WL. But we did not want our kids to be left out of the loot receiving. We gave them cash money and took them to Toys R Us and let them shop and shop and shop. My boys would take about four hours but they got the absolute most out of their money and selected exactly what they wanted and got their presents early. All their friends were envious and wished their families did things the Rutledge way.

There you have it. Family is big big big and the LCS agenda is optional.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

djohnson(XLCmember) · 08-14-2008, 07:32 PM

It is no secret that Lee taught that his church and ministry should be a parents top priority. And it is fairly obvious to the well informed that parents were addicted to Lee and the endless parade of Lee centric events.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery!

Hope · 08-14-2008, 07:53 PM

Hello everyone,

I meant to relate one more personal story.

Shortly after the Irving Hall was completed there was a big conference there with WL and churches from all over. During the conference my second son was involved in a big soccer tournament in Dallas. He played on a nationally ranked select team and was a key player. I attended all of the regular meetings but had cut the elders meetings in order to be at his games.

On the last day of the conference, my son's team was playing for the championship at 3:30 in Richardson. No problem, I could go to the morning meeting and make it easily to my sons game.

When I entered the hall, an usher handed me a note. It was from Benson Phillips. After the meeting, WL had invited some of the overseas brothers, Ray Graver, Benson and myself to a special get together. Lunch would be served. Benson mentioned that Brother Lee especially mentioned that he hoped I could be there.

I had lunch with them. But then WL started in on the same old same old about their history in China etc. Things I had heard so many times. I waited it out but at 3:00 I got up whispered to Benson I must go as I had family responsibilities. He asked what. I replied that Deric was playing soccer in Richardson and I was going to watch and bring him home. Brother Lee observed my leaving and asked what was happening. I told him I had prior family responsibilities but it was good to see him and then left.

By the way Deric had a great game and his team won the game and championship.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

Ohio · 08-14-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

I had lunch with them. But then WL started in on the same old same old about their history in China etc. Things I had heard so many times. I waited it out but at 3:00 I got up whispered to Benson I must go as I had family responsibilities. He asked what. I replied that Deric was playing soccer in Richardson and I was going to watch and bring him home. Brother Lee observed my leaving and asked what was happening. I told him I had prior family responsibilities but it was good to see him and then left. By the way Deric had a great game and his team won the game and championship.

Bah Humbug! I have never met a brother in all the LC's who would dare to do this!

I don't know whether I should laugh or cry.

I ended up doing both.

djohnson(XLCmember) · 08-14-2008, 09:22 PM

When you leave a church or "ministry" which is not an addiction it's quite easy. You just move on to another place. Keep the same friends. Add some new ones. No big deal. If addiction is involved the leaving process is a slow and painful withdrawal which takes years to overcome if it can be overcome at all. It appears for most who left the LCS it was a painful and slow process and rehab was/is difficult. Some even admit that they did not know how they would go on after they left: not go on without the Lord but go on without Lee and his group.

Leeaholism is heart wrenching to watch but it makes me happy to see many on this site facing it. Better to admit the problem and start recovery than to stay lost in the hazy stupor of addiction.

finallyprettyokay · 08-14-2008, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djohnson

When you leave a church or "ministry" which is not an addiction it's quite easy. You just move on to another place. Keep the same friends. Add some new ones. No big deal. If addiction is involved the leaving process is a slow and painful withdrawal which takes years to overcome if it can be overcome at all. It appears for most who left the LCS it was a painful and slow process and rehab was/is difficult. Some even admit that they did not know how they would go on after they left: not go on without the Lord but go on without Lee and his group.

Leeaholism is heart wrenching to watch but it makes me happy to see many on this site facing it. Better to admit the problem and start recovery than to stay lost in the hazy stupor of addiction.

D-I-V-O-R-C-E That's what it feels like. A divorce.

djohnson(XLCmember) · 08-14-2008, 09:46 PM

The addictive behavior is obvious in the LCS and it is encouraged. Keep "drinking" Lee and more Lee and more Lee. When you try to break the addiction what happens? Well...it's no mystery...just watch what's going on in the GLA. How are the addicts reacting to those trying to get on the wagon?

countmeworthy · 08-14-2008, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay

D-I-V-O-R-C-E That's what it feels like. A divorce.

What is that you said? Couldn't hear you FPO. Would you repeat it again please?

Just ribbing ya!

SpeakersCorner · 08-14-2008, 09:28 PM

I recall a pivotal moment in my church experience. I had "left" the "Recovery" for about five years (late 70s), gotten married, and somehow my wife became interested in it. She invited a couple (well, more honestly, they invited themselves) to visit us in my Prodigal Sty State for a weekend. I reluctantly agreed to the visit ... and then I realized with horror that it was the same weekend as the Indiana high school basketball state finals, as important event in Indiana at the time as, oh, I don't know, maybe Mardi Gras is to the Nawleans crowd.

Anyway, I made my wife call the couple up and warn them that I was going to be watching basketball on the Saturday evening of their visit. She did it and told me, laughing, that they said, "No problem! They'd watch with us."

I was stunned. They came, I turned the game on but we only watched cursorily, and I began to think, Gee, maybe there is a niche somewhere in the LC I could fit in. I loved the teaching but, man, I loved my "old man" too, especially if he was getting the ball inside the paint just ready to drop-step and put two on the scoreboard.

Anyway, I think Hope's stories are true but I also think there were others who didn't have his freedom. My freedom came from my hiding from powers that be. His perhaps because he was a power that be.

For what it's worth.

SC

Peter Debelak · 08-14-2008, 10:06 PM

I've witnessed what Thankful Jane described. But it wasn't my or most of my peers experience.

In Cleveland, where I grew up, all of my comrades were involved in all sorts of extra-curriculars. Sports, music, art, school governance, etc...

I recall thinking in high school that therer were so many things off limits. I had a hard time in high school - due to self-imposed concepts of what was acceptable. I didn't spend much time with my high school friends and I was growing distant from my church friends who attended other schools. I think my parents noticed this. One night, when my family was sitting down to dinner, I received a call from a classmate. He had invited me to a "party" that he was throwing (and his parents would be there). Without consulting my parents, I declined the invitation. Me? At a "party"???? Christ wouldn't do such a thing, right? When I got off the phone, my family asked who it was. I told them about the invitation and, with a little pride, I told them I declined. I couldn't believe it when my dad said "why don't you go?"

Anyway. Involvement in extra-curriculars was a mainstay among my peers growing up. It wasn't just allowed, it was encouraged.

Can't tell you how many Indians games a whole mess of us would go to ($2.00 general admission - can you blame us???).

That said, there was a strictness to our upbringing that my non-believer friends later would find intense. There were LC friends of mine, and myself included, who got into myriad trouble through our late teen/early twenties years. Some who seemed beyond repair. Thing is, with only a few - very few - exceptions that come to mind, most re-found their faith and, at that, a dynamic one. Whether or not they re-entered the LC is another matter...

In Anaheim, there was a mixed bag as well. There were a number of brothers I got to know - many children of BBs - who "went off the deep end." But I also know how their fathers ached for them. And they had brothers and sisters (blood) who weren't as rebelious. Can I place that at the feet of the LC experience? I'd be hard pressed.

Personally, at age 19, I felt like the LC was just a human culture with its own norms and mores - to the point where I couldn't see God in it and rejected Him. After a long process, I know I was too harsh.

I'm sorry, but if God predestinates someone, the fact that he is born into a particular group - even an errant group - is not going to affect his calling. God WILL find a way. That is not an condemnation or a license to errant teaching in the LC.

Within the same family, which raised each of their kids on the same principals, I've seen one kid turn out to be a validictorian, spiritually intense and committed to Christ - while another turns to drugs etc... Same church life. Same parents. Different result.

We should point out teachings and practices which can tend to be unhealthy. But ultimately, we have to pray and pray and pray. What else can we do? We have to believe He is sovereign, right? Even the harshest circumstances that kids go through - or put themselves through - He can have a way.

Enough rambling on this.

Grace to you all,

Peter

Hope · 08-14-2008, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Bah Humbug! I have never met a brother in all the LC's who would dare to do this!

I don't know whether I should laugh or cry.

I ended up doing both.

But Ohio, I really wanted to see that game. I was very proud of my son.

By then, sometime around 1984-85 I was not under the fear of WL or BP. I knew about their unrighteous dealings around the Daystar mess. I knew about immorality swept under the rug, (but not yet about Philip, the last straw for me). I still had some respect for them due to their past service and their gift but was done trying to please them and score points.

By then, if you recall, there was practically no anointing on WL's speaking. He was doing his summary of the New Testament and completing his life study work. Dry, dead, no light.

By then, it was already clear that there would be no blessing on the Irving Training Center or Church and that it was just a big expensive boon-daggle.

By then, I had seen so many snafus from WL that if there was really anything to the teaching of deputy authority, it sure was not WL. Let him take the lead in a spiritual enterprise or a business enterprise and failure was sure to result. And no, James Barber and Ray Graver, the failures of WL were not a test from the Lord.

By then, watching my 14 year old son play soccer was more important than hearing the legend of WN and WL for the 50+ time from the mouth of one of the legends.

Ohio, in 1974 I would not have done that. In 1978, I would not have done that. In 1980, I would not have done that. But by 1984, I was in the process of cutting ties. There was beginning to develop a group of brothers who were concerned for what had happened to us. Not a fermentation of rebellion but an awakening to the fact that something had gone terribly wrong.

The rest of the story of that little incident is that I was making a statement. Yes, the superficial and a real reason was my son's game but I was making it clear to Benson and to WL that they were not the center of my universe.

Please do note that 18 months later I moved from Texas. Another 18 months and I was voluntarily out. There was no need to quarantine me. I had already left the building.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

YP0534 · 08-15-2008, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

There was beginning to develop a group of brothers who were concerned for what had happened to us. Not a fermentation of rebellion but an awakening to the fact that something had gone terribly wrong.

Truly, the biggest shame is that the faithful ones who kept walking forward with the Lord as the wheels of The Ministry began to spin in place have been cruelly tagged with these words of "rebellion" and "leprosy" and "quarantine" and the like.

I appreciate your story, Hope, and can only imagine the heaviness of the atmosphere at your leaving untimely for a reason that barely registered on the Church-o-meter....

Ohio · 08-16-2008, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

But Ohio, I really wanted to see that game. I was very proud of my son.

Brother, I sure appreciate all your posts.

Isn't this the same son who ended up a one-year-old opium addict? (For the full story, read Hope's book.) He was a miracle playing soccer. I wouldn't have missed that game either!

Thanks for your comment, "By then, if you recall, there was practically no anointing on WL's speaking. He was doing his summary of the New Testament and completing his life study work. Dry, dead, no light." For years (maybe 20) I felt that the problem was only with me and my heart. All those around me continually sung his praises, so I did too, but the most I got was doctrines. The anointing was also replaced by wild promotionals at the trainings.

YP0534 · 08-16-2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for your comment, "By then, if you recall, there was practically no anointing on WL's speaking. He was doing his summary of the New Testament and completing his life study work. Dry, dead, no light." For years (maybe 20) I felt that the problem was only with me and my heart. All those around me continually sung his praises, so I did too, but the most I got was doctrines. The anointing was also replaced by wild promotionals at the trainings.

Yeah, Ohio, but I wanted to respond to Hope myself and say, "Really? Practically no annointing you say? But maybe just a little bit? What does that mean, exactly. No light at all? Huh. Was that really what you experienced? Brother Hope, I would have to differ with you somewhat."

But then I felt, well, I'm not really here to defend Lee. I love brother Hope's portion so let Lee's real advocates do that. Let his writings stand and fall on their own merits.

But I still wanted to say, I was blown away by the stuff in the Conclusion messages coming to it as a baby Christian and 20+ years later I'm STILL waiting for LSM to publish those messages on the New Jerusalem where I saw some lovely things indeed.

Leviticus? OK. I'm in agreement about Leviticus.

A lot of the practical ramblings on 1-in-4 and 1-in-20 and such? Come on! You might as well try to pray-read the Wall Street Journal.

I just felt Hope's description was overly harsh especially for that particular point in history, 1984-1985, that he cited. I'd guess he's just shifted the dates a year or three in his memory, though, because I'm on board with both of you by the first training on Life-Study of Leviticus for sure. I tried so hard to get my enjoyment out of the training messages at that point but it just wasn't there anymore.

I was sucking on dry bones just three years after getting so used to the rich flavor of Christ.

Maybe what y'all are saying is that in this period the annointing and the light wasn't what it was in even, say, 1980? I still tend to disagree based upon my experiences with the printed messages later on, but I concede that I wasn't there to know how things were before 1985....

finallyprettyokay · 08-14-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Hope wrote: From Finallyprettyokay

I wrote in another thread about his teaching of children being 'wrappers'.

I never heard this until I read your earlier post. I believe it was actually reported to you by an elder. Maybe Lee taught it and maybe something just came up in conversation and this man picked up on some cute expression and wanted to impress someone. I saw that happen on many occassions.

You know, all I can do on this is promise that Witness Lee himself said it. In Anaheim, sometime close to the time my son was born which was in September, 1975. Apparently it didn't make the rounds. That's good.

I went to one burning. Our son had not yet been born, and we lived in Anaheim. That would put it sometime in 1974, I think. I didn't have anything to burn, but went. I couldn't even tell you what anyone burned -- it was a really big fire. It was on the beach, on the sand. I loved being on the beach again.

Family vacations --- just didn't see it happen. Twice a year conferences took the time.

Christmas. I always told my kids that Santa was a really fun pretend guy --- like Big Bird, or Superman. When my oldest son was in junior high he wrote a paper about it. His ending statement was "My mom never made me believe in Santa, and I'm glad she didn't". How cute is that? Well, that's beside the point, I just wanted to take the chance to brag about my son.

Quote:

I would ask everyone to use some discretion about painting the bad family image on everyone. It is a little libilous. I agree with Dennis that it can be counter productive.

You know, I really apologize if I made it sound like I thought everyone had 'bad families'. I don't think that. I do think the schedule we all kept took so much of our time each week. And that there were many 'rules' that kept us from so many important things.

Hope, I was there for 8 years and never knew of a birthday party. Maybe there were secret parties. I don't know. We knew each other's comings and goings pretty well, especially in San Diego (there weren't enough of us to get lost in the crowd). It would have been hard to keep that secret.

I wonder about the difference in experience -- for example, what John writes and what Terry writes, has a lot to do with not only what city a person lived in, but also the time period. Things changed, I think.

Okay, the most important thing here is that WL did say kids were wrappers, and that I don't think every family was 'bad'. Just to sum it all up.

FPO

countmeworthy · 08-14-2008, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay

I went to one burning..... ...it was a really big fire. It was on the beach, on the sand. I loved being on the beach again.

Family vacations --- just didn't see it happen. .... I was there for 8 years and never knew of a birthday party. Maybe there were secret parties. I don't know. We knew each other's comings and goings pretty well, especially in San Diego (there weren't enough of us to get lost in the crowd). It would have been hard to keep that secret.
FPO

I too went to ONE burning...in San Diego...I remember my eyes bugging out when I saw a brother burn his SKIS!!!!

I didn't have anything to burn but that year I had to come 'home' to my dad & mom's funeral. I remember having a 'hope chest' filled with 16 magazines

I got rid of them.

Family Vacations: Oh... I know the elders in my locality in San Diego took vacations...LONG ones too...about a MONTH long. I later found out they let the kids watch cartoons and took them to movies a couple of times.

Birthdays: HEY! A sister threw ME a Surprise B-day party. It was the BEST party I ever had! I was truly Surprised!!

The sister took me out to dinner first. Then she took me to the house she was living at. A sister who did not live there answered the door. I was surprised to see HER there. She told me she had just learned to play a song on the piano and wanted me to hear it.

I walked over to the piano with her..NEVER noticing the number of SAINTS in the background. She began to play 'Happy Birthday'...while everyone joined in! WAS I EVER SURPRISED!!! There were about 15-20 people there!

It really was the very best Birthday party I've ever had in my entire life.

Told you, I was in a pretty healthy 'locality!' San Diego was a good church over all.

FPO...TOO bad you had already moved to Anaheim!!!...or LA

Ohio · 08-16-2008, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

Hello Dear brothers and sisters,

I must take a different position. Much of what I am reading sounds strange and foreign to me.

Brother Hope, much of what you share sounds "strange and foreign" to me.

It seems that you and DJohnson are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I agree that djohnson's characterizations are far too extreme to be representative. But ... I have to admit that neither were you representative of the whole.

That is why I was so upset three years ago when I learned the truth about brothers like you, John Ingalls, and many others. What a different Recovery it would have been if we had really "practiced blending" back in the 70's and 80's as we so often hear about now. "Blending" is just a farce that is really "purging."

I do believe that the experiences of the LC's are quite diversified. Some things that I post are also "strange and foreign" to others. Things were different place to place, region to region, and at various times.

I would only hope that DJ would post more as an "eye-witness" rather than as an "observer" with extreme characterizations that are not representative of the whole.

08-14-2008, 07:21 PM	#1
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	Family Life in the Local Churches Hello Dear brothers and sisters, I must take a different position. Much of what I am reading sounds strange and foreign to me. Here are a few of the statements that stand out. The following are from Thankful Jane. I will high light in blue her statements and my comments will be in black. LC teachings were off concerning marriage and family. How many Christian churches can you go to today that teach you the church comes before marriage and family? Where is this in the Bible? Of course that is no where in the Bible. I did hear from some like Samuel Chang such statements but this teaching was among those that came from peculiar personalities which had a lot of influence. I mentioned this phenomenon in my history. I should have developed it much more. I was afraid I would come across as too negative and decided to let this part of the history go. This thread illustrated that that was probably a mistake. There were a lot of odd teachings that gained some traction here and there. The anti-marriage stuff was ridiculous. I shot it down whenever I could. The baloney about how miserable the wives could make the husbands and visa versus was one of my favorite targets. I would never let it go by. I would counter about my own experience with Sheryl and report about many other very happily married couples. We were taught that if you take care of the Lord and the church, God will take care of your marriage and children. This is clearly not biblical, but we bought it. I remember in my first years in the LC being told that Samuel Chang said the most important thing we could do for our children was to be consecrated. That translated into consecrated to the church. If there was an event for them (school or recreational) and a church event at the same time, the church event took precedence. I think here we have a clear example of the extreme practice of some of the local churches based on the extreme character of the local elders. Ray Graver in Houston and James Barber in OK City would certainly take this position. The church agenda was everything to them. On the other hand, in Dallas, Sheryl and I would make sure at least one of us attended any of our children's activities. Usually it was both. I always believed it is a heart matter. We should certainly put the Lord Jesus Christ first in our heart and loyalty. If being true to Him and serving the gospel or the saints, required me to miss a middle school football game, I trust my decision is made. But neglect of the children is not in question. We must care for them. One time my husband tried to be an assistant coach for a Little League baseball team of one of our sons, but the baseball schedule and the meeting schedule didn't mesh, so the coaching went out the window. Same with the time the Little League games were played. Same with every single thing our children were involved in. Twice I coached my sons little league/Pony league teams. It required that I miss some meetings and I was an elder and full time brother. There were two other boys from the church on the team. We had a great time. I was the assistant coach. I will never forget one of the parents telling me that my being a coach had saved the experience for his son and I was the only reason they finished the season. That really meant a lot to me as I did believe I was in the Lord's will to help that group and it was an opportunity to be a witness for Christ. Two of the boys, friends of my sons, came to know Christ as savior. They both came from unbelieving homes and never attended any type of church. Of course, I enjoyed it. Since I was a former baseball player, I did show off at times and demonstrate some skills that those kids had never seen. My sons, who were both on one of the teams, relished it when I would toss a ball in the air and drive it 375 feet in the air or demonstrate how to throw a ball harder and farther than the boys had ever seen. Witness Lee said we should never have regrets I am thankful every day that the Lord has had mercy on my children. The one thing I did right was not cram the program down their throats. If they didn't want to be involved, they were free not to be. I never made them "call on the Lord," etc. I am still waiting for the day when I hear an ex-LC leader say, "It was not biblical to teach that the Lord would take care of our families if we took care of the church. That teaching was damaging and hurt a lot of people. I am sorry." I whole hardily agree!!! I hope I never taught that. Someone let me know if I personally ever said something like that or seemed to agree if someone did say something like that. If I ever did, I am sorry sorry sorry, my bad, my bad my bad. Husbands were looked down on if they did anything to help their wives Really??? Maybe one of those strange notions that some brought in? I remember several times Sheryl and I discussed certain odd practices among couples from Taiwan. We attributed it to their Chinese culture. By the way the Chinese culture and view of marriage is not based on anything in the scriptures. Of course the culture of a southern peasant is of no more value than the Chinese culture but please keep in mind that the southern culture has been very much influenced and shaped by the teachings of Christ. In the Bible, marriage and the family is big, big , big. On many occasions when we were counseling couples we contradicted WL or something they had heard and shared our own experience and what the scriptures taught. We spoke with many couples before their marriage and with many after their marriage to give them counseling. I never remember ever ever saying something like put the church first. Somebody let me know if I did. If so. please erase it forever. From Finallyprettyokay I wrote in another thread about his teaching of children being 'wrappers'. I never heard this until I read your earlier post. I believe it was actually reported to you by an elder. Maybe Lee taught it and maybe something just came up in conversation and this man picked up on some cute expression and wanted to impress someone. I saw that happen on many occassions. As other posters have written, children watched their parents burn pictures of them. I never burned anything. My understanding of the passage in Acts was the new believers burned things related to magic, demons etc. I did not have anything like that. I had been a Christian for several years as had my wife and when the burning "flow" hit Texas we had nothing to burn and felt no complusion to prove anything to anyone. I did see some in Houston burn some items they believed had occupied their heart. I never saw pictures of children being burned but I did hear of that happening in California. I find it hard to believe that someone would burn pictures of their children in front of their children. That is scandolous and replusive. I would ask everyone to use some discretion about painting the bad family image on everyone. It is a little libilous. I agree with Dennis that it can be counter productive. By the way, we took family vacations. We took our kids to Penny Whistle Park and to water parks all the time. We made the pilgramage to Six Flags over Texas at least twice a year. That was usually the low point of my year as my wife made me ride the rides with my daughter. I have a very sensitive inner ear but Sheryl enjoyed watching me turn green and stagger off of the rides. Of course we had to go to the Texas State Fair, a great time was had by all and we passed out gospel tracts. Birthday parties is a big thing for my wife and still is for the grandchildren. What about Christmas? Hang on. My mother opposed Christmas. She was an improverished share cropper and migrant worker. She told us how she dreaded the first day of school after the xmas-New Years vacation as she would be forced to lie about what Santa Clause brought her. She would have actually have gotten nothing. Her family of seven childrens celebrated xmas morning by each being given a half an orange and a cup of fruit cocktail. She was very offended by the Santa Clause myth and believed it undermined faith in Christ. She got in troubles a few times because we kids would tell our friends there was no Santa Clause and that our mother had told us so. So I was not a Christmas celebrator long before I ever heard of WL. But we did not want our kids to be left out of the loot receiving. We gave them cash money and took them to Toys R Us and let them shop and shop and shop. My boys would take about four hours but they got the absolute most out of their money and selected exactly what they wanted and got their presents early. All their friends were envious and wished their families did things the Rutledge way. There you have it. Family is big big big and the LCS agenda is optional. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge

08-14-2008, 07:32 PM	#2
djohnson(XLCmember) Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 318	Leeoholics! It is no secret that Lee taught that his church and ministry should be a parents top priority. And it is fairly obvious to the well informed that parents were addicted to Lee and the endless parade of Lee centric events. Admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery! __________________ My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ!

08-14-2008, 07:53 PM	#3
Hope Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Durham, North Carolina Posts: 313	One more example of Family first Lee and LCS second Hello everyone, I meant to relate one more personal story. Shortly after the Irving Hall was completed there was a big conference there with WL and churches from all over. During the conference my second son was involved in a big soccer tournament in Dallas. He played on a nationally ranked select team and was a key player. I attended all of the regular meetings but had cut the elders meetings in order to be at his games. On the last day of the conference, my son's team was playing for the championship at 3:30 in Richardson. No problem, I could go to the morning meeting and make it easily to my sons game. When I entered the hall, an usher handed me a note. It was from Benson Phillips. After the meeting, WL had invited some of the overseas brothers, Ray Graver, Benson and myself to a special get together. Lunch would be served. Benson mentioned that Brother Lee especially mentioned that he hoped I could be there. I had lunch with them. But then WL started in on the same old same old about their history in China etc. Things I had heard so many times. I waited it out but at 3:00 I got up whispered to Benson I must go as I had family responsibilities. He asked what. I replied that Deric was playing soccer in Richardson and I was going to watch and bring him home. Brother Lee observed my leaving and asked what was happening. I told him I had prior family responsibilities but it was good to see him and then left. By the way Deric had a great game and his team won the game and championship. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge

08-14-2008, 09:22 PM	#5
djohnson(XLCmember) Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 318	A-d-d-i-c-t-i-o-n When you leave a church or "ministry" which is not an addiction it's quite easy. You just move on to another place. Keep the same friends. Add some new ones. No big deal. If addiction is involved the leaving process is a slow and painful withdrawal which takes years to overcome if it can be overcome at all. It appears for most who left the LCS it was a painful and slow process and rehab was/is difficult. Some even admit that they did not know how they would go on after they left: not go on without the Lord but go on without Lee and his group. Leeaholism is heart wrenching to watch but it makes me happy to see many on this site facing it. Better to admit the problem and start recovery than to stay lost in the hazy stupor of addiction. __________________ My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ!

08-14-2008, 09:46 PM	#7
djohnson(XLCmember) Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 318	The addictive behavior is obvious in the LCS and it is encouraged. Keep "drinking" Lee and more Lee and more Lee. When you try to break the addiction what happens? Well...it's no mystery...just watch what's going on in the GLA. How are the addicts reacting to those trying to get on the wagon? __________________ My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ!

08-14-2008, 09:28 PM	#9
SpeakersCorner Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 273	I recall a pivotal moment in my church experience. I had "left" the "Recovery" for about five years (late 70s), gotten married, and somehow my wife became interested in it. She invited a couple (well, more honestly, they invited themselves) to visit us in my Prodigal Sty State for a weekend. I reluctantly agreed to the visit ... and then I realized with horror that it was the same weekend as the Indiana high school basketball state finals, as important event in Indiana at the time as, oh, I don't know, maybe Mardi Gras is to the Nawleans crowd. Anyway, I made my wife call the couple up and warn them that I was going to be watching basketball on the Saturday evening of their visit. She did it and told me, laughing, that they said, "No problem! They'd watch with us." I was stunned. They came, I turned the game on but we only watched cursorily, and I began to think, Gee, maybe there is a niche somewhere in the LC I could fit in. I loved the teaching but, man, I loved my "old man" too, especially if he was getting the ball inside the paint just ready to drop-step and put two on the scoreboard. Anyway, I think Hope's stories are true but I also think there were others who didn't have his freedom. My freedom came from my hiding from powers that be. His perhaps because he was a power that be. For what it's worth. SC

08-14-2008, 10:06 PM	#10
Peter Debelak I Have Finished My Course Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Avon, OH Posts: 303	I've witnessed what Thankful Jane described. But it wasn't my or most of my peers experience. In Cleveland, where I grew up, all of my comrades were involved in all sorts of extra-curriculars. Sports, music, art, school governance, etc... I recall thinking in high school that therer were so many things off limits. I had a hard time in high school - due to self-imposed concepts of what was acceptable. I didn't spend much time with my high school friends and I was growing distant from my church friends who attended other schools. I think my parents noticed this. One night, when my family was sitting down to dinner, I received a call from a classmate. He had invited me to a "party" that he was throwing (and his parents would be there). Without consulting my parents, I declined the invitation. Me? At a "party"???? Christ wouldn't do such a thing, right? When I got off the phone, my family asked who it was. I told them about the invitation and, with a little pride, I told them I declined. I couldn't believe it when my dad said "why don't you go?" Anyway. Involvement in extra-curriculars was a mainstay among my peers growing up. It wasn't just allowed, it was encouraged. Can't tell you how many Indians games a whole mess of us would go to ($2.00 general admission - can you blame us???). That said, there was a strictness to our upbringing that my non-believer friends later would find intense. There were LC friends of mine, and myself included, who got into myriad trouble through our late teen/early twenties years. Some who seemed beyond repair. Thing is, with only a few - very few - exceptions that come to mind, most re-found their faith and, at that, a dynamic one. Whether or not they re-entered the LC is another matter... In Anaheim, there was a mixed bag as well. There were a number of brothers I got to know - many children of BBs - who "went off the deep end." But I also know how their fathers ached for them. And they had brothers and sisters (blood) who weren't as rebelious. Can I place that at the feet of the LC experience? I'd be hard pressed. Personally, at age 19, I felt like the LC was just a human culture with its own norms and mores - to the point where I couldn't see God in it and rejected Him. After a long process, I know I was too harsh. I'm sorry, but if God predestinates someone, the fact that he is born into a particular group - even an errant group - is not going to affect his calling. God WILL find a way. That is not an condemnation or a license to errant teaching in the LC. Within the same family, which raised each of their kids on the same principals, I've seen one kid turn out to be a validictorian, spiritually intense and committed to Christ - while another turns to drugs etc... Same church life. Same parents. Different result. We should point out teachings and practices which can tend to be unhealthy. But ultimately, we have to pray and pray and pray. What else can we do? We have to believe He is sovereign, right? Even the harshest circumstances that kids go through - or put themselves through - He can have a way. Enough rambling on this. Grace to you all, Peter __________________ I Have Finished My Course Last edited by Peter Debelak; 08-14-2008 at 10:33 PM.