Angel of Light Ministers in the LC

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Igzy

In the first place, they are more than just publishers. They are leaders of the movement you identify with.

In the second place, it isn't just about what went on in the 80s. It's what has gone on this decade and is still going on.

As long as you identify with the movement that LSM and the BBs lead, your silence is consent. Now, you might say you have no other way. But that doesn't change the fact that your are implicitly giving consent. It's just a fact your are going to have to deal with. Right now it just seems you are compartmentalizing it.

I sympathize. I'm not trying to condemn you. But I wouldn't be honest if I didn't tell you there is some inconsistency there.

This is faulty logic. I absolutely disagree that silence is consent in this case. By the way, I am not silent. I have express many times to my fellow brothers and sisters and I don't believe everything that WL wrote. But why do I need to call up LSM and tell them that? It is none of their business. Who says I identify with them?

I enjoy Witness Lee's writings so I decided to join/stay in this church. But this does NOT require me to agree with everything in the church. I buy Proctor and Gamble's product. But it does NOT require that I believe in everything that PG does. I like to eat at a particular restaurant (for example, Red Lobster). But it does NOT require I agree with everything the manager of that restaurant do.

Does it mean that I consent with everything that the restaurant manager does just because I'm silent? Are you suggesting I should confront the Red Lobster manager just because 10 years ago he cheated on his wife? And by eating at his restaurant and being silent I am consenting to his behavior? This is ridiculous.

Are you saying all the current members of the Roman Catholic Church, who have never confronted the Pope, consent to the its dark history? They all consent to the murder of many innocent christians 1000 years ago? They all consent to the recent sexual scandals of the Bishops?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Truth

This is faulty logic. I absolutely disagree that silence is consent in this case. By the way, I am not silent. I have express many times to my fellow brothers and sisters and I don't believe everything that WL wrote. But why do I need to call up LSM and tell them that? It is none of their business.

I enjoy Witness Lee's writings so I decided to join/stay in this church. But this does NOT require me to agree with everything in the church. I buy Proctor and Gamble's product. But it does NOT require that I believe in everything that PG does. I like to eat at a particular restaurant (for example, Red Lobster). But it does NOT require I agree with everything the manager of that restaurant do.

Does it mean that I consent with everything that the restaurant manager does just because I'm silent? Are you suggesting I should confront the Red Lobster manager just because 10 years ago he cheated on his wife? And by eating at his restaurant and being silent I am consenting to his behavior? This is ridiculous.

Instead of playing the false-analogy-faulty-logic game back and forth, how about I just ask you this:

What would LSM have to do for you to feel compelled to challenge them?

Apparently their claiming to represent the unique and only legitimate ministry of the age, committing character assassination on rival ministers, seizing real estate, rewriting history, driving wedges between church members and families, and all the other damage they have done isn't enough to get your dander up. What would be?

(Don't forget they think they have authority over you, they think they are your unique leaders, and they expect you to only say nice things about them. And if you don't, you'll be the next target just like all the others they've taken out. And I have a hard time believing you don't realize that and it isn't at least part of the reason you just "absolutely disagreed" with me.

How do you feel about following a ministry which would not hesitate to trash your reputation if they decided you were too opinionated?)

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Igzy

How do you feel about following a ministry which would not hesitate to trash your reputation if they decided you were too opinionated?)

Again, like I've said many many times. I do not agree with everything LSM publishes. I am NOT following the ENTIRE ministry. I follow the PART of the ministry that helps me. What don't you get about this? What does it have to do with trashing my reputation?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Truth

I follow the PART of the ministry that helps me.

That's where early Lee comes in (pre-1974).

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Terry

That's where early Lee comes in (pre-1974).

I thought that, too. However, the books "The Experience of Life" and "The Knowledge of Life" were actually taken from conferences in the 1950s. I used to think they were great books, and I held onto them for a long time because they meant a lot to me when I was young.

More recently I came to realize that they were so subjective and opinionated that they were actually very misleading. In them Lee basically tries to reduce the experience of God to a science of sensations and arbitrary categories.

Finally I just threw those books away.

[Truth]

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of "The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion" ?

[UntoHim]

Truth,
I have an electronical version (MS Word format).
I'll try to email you a copy to the email address we have on file for you.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Apparently their claiming to represent the unique and only legitimate ministry of the age, committing character assassination on rival ministers, seizing real estate, rewriting history, driving wedges between church members and families, and all the other damage they have done isn't enough to get your dander up. What would be?

Of course I'm not happy with what they did. Yes, I'm reading from a ministry that was involved in this. But this doesn't mean I consent.

If you are part the Catholic Church, you are also part of a ministry that was involved in mass murders of many innocent people. Did you know that the Roman Catholic Church killed more people than the Roman Empire? I don't hold the current members of the Catholic Church responsible. So why are you holding me responsible for deeds I did not do?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Truth

Of course I'm not happy with what they did. Yes, I'm reading from a ministry that was involved in this. But this doesn't mean I consent.

If you are part the Catholic Church, you are also part of a ministry that was involved in mass murders of many innocent people. Did you know that the Roman Catholic Church killed more people than the Roman Empire? I don't hold the current members of the Catholic Church responsible. So why are you holding me responsible for deeds I did not do?

The difference is the RCC hasn't done those things for centuries and they have renounced them and apologized for them many times. The LSM/BBs are still acting badly and have renounced and apologized for nothing.

Surely you see this difference.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The difference is the RCC hasn't done those things for centuries and they have renounced them and apologized for them many times. The LSM/BBs are still acting badly and have renounced and apologized for nothing.

Surely you see this difference.

I'm sure not *everything* that happened in the RCC church has been apologized for. By the way, I'm not defending the BB or LSM here. They definitely need to apologize. But I don't agree that as a member of the LC, I am responsible for the BB or LSM actions...just like I am not responsible for P&G actions. I only use their products. They have no control over my life as you claim.

By the way probably most of the products you use/touch daily are made in somewhere a 3rd world country where labor-rights are not observed. There may even be slave-labor going on. Maybe you should boycott all those products and live in the boonies. Don't shop at Walmart, otherwise you are guilty by association.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Truth

I'm sure not *everything* that happened in the RCC church has been apologized for. By the way, I'm not defending the BB or LSM here. They definitely need to apologize. But I don't agree that as a member of the LC, I am responsible for the BB or LSM actions...just like I am not responsible for P&G actions. I only use their products. They have no control over my life as you claim.

By the way probably most of the products you use/touch daily are made in somewhere a 3rd world country where labor-rights are not observed. There may even be slave-labor going on. Maybe you should boycott all those products and live in the boonies. Don't shop at Walmart, otherwise you are guilty by association.

Finding life-essential products which one can determine are absolutely not tainted is very difficult. Choosing to do without LSM's products on the other hand is quite easy.

You don't have to buy what LSM peddles. In fact, if you already have about three of their books you've gotten about all they have to offer because most of the stuff just repeats itself. Why give them more of your hard-earned cash? Why not support a ministry that doesn't destroy people's lives? There are a lot of them.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Finding life-essential products which one can determine are absolutely not tainted is very difficult. Choosing to do without LSM's products on the other hand is quite easy.

You don't have to buy what LSM peddles. In fact, if you already have about three of their books you've gotten about all they have to offer because most of the stuff just repeats itself. Why give them more of your hard-earned cash? Why not support a ministry that doesn't destroy people's lives? There are a lot of them.

Igzy, that is unfair to say that this ministry destroys people's lives. That is only half the truth. The other half is that it has helped many people. I know many who where helped. Many who would be lost today without it. Even one told me that she would have committed suicide if it weren't for members of the LC helping. So your comments about "choosing to do without LSM's products on the other hand is quite easy" is not exactly accurate.

Everything is a 2-edged sword. It depends on how you use it. The bible can also destroy people's lives if used in the wrong way.

This is why it is hard for current members to come to this forum. This kind of unwarranted bashing is just unfair and is tiring to respond to. I agree with many negative things said about LSM and BB. But to trash WL/WN's ministry and the LCs altogether and say that there is nothing positive in them is unrighteous.

The integrity of this forum depends on how you present the facts. If people begin to see that this forum is all about WL/WN bashing, then they will not believe your talk about the LSM & BB abusiveness and corruption. If they see that you are balanced and unbiased, then people will hear what you have to say because you will have some credibility. This was what attracted me to this forum. There are some members on this forum with a very balanced view and I really appreciate it.

Don't we want more current LC members to see the corruption behind the leadership (especailly what happened in the 80's)? Then it will help if you don't unfairly trash what they a part of. People are generally fair. If they see that you are fair and balanced in your presentation, they will believe what you have to say.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The difference is the RCC hasn't done those things for centuries and they have renounced them and apologized for them many times. The LSM/BBs are still acting badly and have renounced and apologized for nothing.

Let me add to this.

Virtually the whole history of Lee/LSM/BBs/LRC is current events, not ancient history. Most of the perpetrators and victims are still alive. The lack of repentance is still an open issue needing action under Matthew 18. Yet they just thumb their noses at it and go on in unrighteousness.

Jimmy Swaggert was caught with a prostitute. The fact that he thumbed his nose at the Assemblies of God (the denomination within which he originally operated) was a black mark on any claim to a continuing ministry. While I cannot say I was ever a Swaggert follower, he became worthy of open contempt after that.

Same for some of the other televangelists that denied everything then even went to jail in a couple of cases.

Lee, his sons, the BBs are all complicit in unrighteousness that we believe is worthy of expulsion from the assembly until repentance is made. And I say the BBs as a whole because even though the errors may be only on the part of some of them, they stand together in lock-step to refute all charges using Lee's deputy authority mumbo jumbo.

There is nothing clean coming out of that cesspool. I don't care if the words are technically scriptural. The LSM is using claims of spiritual superiority to dismiss evidence of moral inferiority. And for too many, it seems to be working.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by OBW

Let me add to this.

Virtually the whole history of Lee/LSM/BBs/LRC is current events, not ancient history. Most of the perpetrators and victims are still alive. The lack of repentance is still an open issue needing action under Matthew 18. Yet they just thumb their noses at it and go on in unrighteousness.

Jimmy Swaggert was caught with a prostitute. The fact that he thumbed his nose at the Assemblies of God (the denomination within which he originally operated) was a black mark on any claim to a continuing ministry. While I cannot say I was ever a Swaggert follower, he became worthy of open contempt after that.

Same for some of the other televangelists that denied everything then even went to jail in a couple of cases.

Lee, his sons, the BBs are all complicit in unrighteousness that we believe is worthy of expulsion from the assembly until repentance is made. And I say the BBs as a whole because even though the errors may be only on the part of some of them, they stand together in lock-step to refute all charges using Lee's deputy authority mumbo jumbo.

There is nothing clean coming out of that cesspool. I don't care if the words are technically scriptural. The LSM is using claims of spiritual superiority to dismiss evidence of moral inferiority. And for too many, it seems to be working.

I agree. As long as the offending parties are alive, there is opportunity to repent.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

Let me add to this.

Virtually the whole history of Lee/LSM/BBs/LRC is current events, not ancient history. Most of the perpetrators and victims are still alive. The lack of repentance is still an open issue needing action under Matthew 18. Yet they just thumb their noses at it and go on in unrighteousness.

Just to add where the mindset is of recent history (past 25 years at least), the following is a quote from an email I received.

"Please do not contact me again in any way about any matter. Thank you"

In other words, just read afaithfulword.org and you'll see a clear word how LSM/DCP can go on the offensive, but when put on the defensive (encouraged to reach out to those who had left or challenged based on commentary made at conferences/trainings), there is an unwillingness to speak.

[Truth]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Instead of playing the false-analogy-faulty-logic game back and forth, how about I just ask you this:

What would LSM have to do for you to feel compelled to challenge them?

They would have to directly touch me, one of my close brothers/sisters, or my home meetings that I am a part of.

I am not under their control in any way. There is nothing for me to confront. Currently, the BB are not involved in my life in any way. I have no contact with them whatsoever.