Nigel Tomes - LSM's Unorthodox Satanology

[KSA]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

While I'm not sure if I agree with Lee or Tomes on this issue, I would like to point out that Lee's teaching about this had an important element which I think has been missing from this debate. He felt Satan's injecting of his nature into humanity was ultimately a huge mistake on Satan's part. By placing something of himself into mankind, the Satanic nature, could now be destroyed on the cross. Christ, in putting on the flesh, took on this human nature which, though Satan had no place in him, was in the line of Adam.

SC, can you explain why for Christ to destroy Satan, it was necessary for Satan to be in man's flesh? This example with a trap is just another metaphor, but I would like to see a clear biblical ground for it.

[SpeakersCorner]

Delete. Post below.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by KSA

SC, can you explain why for Christ to destroy Satan, it was necessary for Satan to be in man's flesh? This example with a trap is just another metaphor, but I would like to see a clear biblical ground for it.

KSA,

Well, I don't have scriptural support for it ... yet. Hence my ginger handling of the topic. But that doesn't mean the verses aren't there. Maybe this thread can help find them in their disparate hiding places.

Here's a few things we do know:

• Christ came in the likeness of the flesh of sin
• Christ became sin on our behalf on the cross
• Sin dwells in man and even "stirs"
• Satan entered Judas once and was very closely allied with Peter on one occasion
• Satan entered the serpent
• Satan is an angel and angels can take on corporeal forms and even have sexual intercourse with humans

This top-of-the-head list just skims the surface of verses that show us something about the mysterious things concerning Satan, sin, and the human nature. But even considering these things, it is apparent to me that there are several mysteries afoot. How can Satan "enter" people? How does that work? What exactly was this flesh that Christ put on? How did Christ gain the victory over Satan on the cross?

It is interesting to me also that innoculation of a human body requires a bit of the disease itself to enter.

I also like the idea that God and Satan are fighting over the human soul, that is the battleground. With God coming from within (in the spirit), Satan enters the fray from without (in the body) and the lines are drawn in the great plains of the soul.

Like I said, I am not sure where I stand on this one. But I am not too quick to toss out Lee's teaching here.


SC

[Cal]

There is no solid scriptural ground for saying something as stupendous as Satan lives in our body. As SC alluded, it's something people "like" to believe for one reason or another, because it satisfies their desire for drama or irony or symmetry or some other thing. But it's not biblical; it's almost totally speculation.

Why should anyone expect people to base their core beliefs on speculation?

[Peter Debelak]

What is the practical consequence (or negative fruit) of someone believing Satan dwells in their body, as opposed to just believing that sin dwells in their body and the law of sin and death operates within them?

I agree that there isn't clear Biblical evidence that Satan HIMSELF lives in our body. And those who believe it likely do so because it affords some "symmetry" or something. But if the practical effect of believing this is no different than just believing that sin dwells in our body, then what's the fuss? If it offers people a visual which inspires a desperation for Christ, why not let it be (so long as it doesn't have an unintended consequence - which is why I'm asking the question)?

To be sure, in the context of Lee, its important to point out an errant teaching - but not for the purpose of pointing out the teaching itself is wrong - but rather to show that Lee was not infallible.

That said, since (I think) we would all agree that sin dwells within us and that we were born children of the devil (John 3:10), I don't know that it makes a huge difference whether its Satan himself or just sin which indwells us - either one is profoundly terrifying.

Thoughts?

Peter

[Cal]

To me it's a lot more terrifying, creepy, weird, prone to imagining all kinds of vague "supernatural" sensations (if Satan is in my body, can I ever feel him?), etc. to believe than Satan lives in my body than to just consider that my moral nature has been corrupted by the fall.

The Bible often uses metaphor, but that doesn't mean that the metaphor has an exact parallel in reality. Paul says sin "dwells" in us, but that doesn't necessarily mean that sin is a conscious, breathing entity. It's just metaphor.

I've witnessed several mentally unstable Christians, all in the LC. From my observation, such people tend to become very subjective and superstitious about their sensations, and get to the point that they can't sort them out. These people don't need to be thinking that Satan lives in their body. For the sake of the less stable and even immature among us, and there are many, I suggest we hold off on the practically groundless speculation that Satan himself dwells in us.

The other side of you question, Peter, then, is if the teaching does no good, why bother with it?

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The other side of you question, Peter, then, is if the teaching does no good, why bother with it?

I'm not sure it does no good. Personally, I find it terrifying enough to know that sin dwells in me and operations with the power of a law of nature.

But I also know a number of Christians who didn't appreciate that - both inside the LC and outside. These folks had an active church life or ministry, they weren't killing anyone and were helpin' out the poor on Tuesday nights. Living like this and in the insular community (which most groups - particularly Christian groups are), it becomes easy to forget that sin is inwardly operating. I don't know, these folks might benefit from a little scare that comes from the thought that Satan himself dwells within them.

It can be an illustration that hits home a point. We can state clearly that there is not solid Biblical support for the ultimate truth of it and still use the illustration.

For those who believe it to be truth, well, I guess it would depend on how their errant belief is operating in their life. If they're going nuts (like the folks you mention), perhaps a little tough love and cutting straight is in order. If they hold to the belief because it offers a healthy does of fear which turns them more to Christ, I'm not sure we need to call in the truth police...

Peter

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

I'm not sure it does no good. Personally, I find it terrifying enough to know that sin dwells in me and operations with the power of a law of nature.

That was exactly my point. You said before that knowing that sin dwells in you was terrifying enough. So if it's enough, why add the aspect that a fallen spook lives in you, too? The Bible supports the idea of sin being in you, so if it's enough, why go further?

[Peter Debelak]

please delete. duplicate

[aron]

FPO, yes the AA "recovery" plan is useful. The 12 steps were based on the Oxford Group in England, which was a bunch of sinners trying to figure out how to come back to God according to Biblical principles. The drunkards seized upon the "way" because they were literally perishing. It was not self-improvement, it was survival. If "sinners" realized how grave the situation was they would likewise seize the principles (faith, repentance, honesty, forgiveness, restitution, etc) and allow themselves to be likewise saved from perishing.

Gubei, I like your ideas on a "person" posessing "agency", or will, or the capacity to choose. I have long felt that only God has the capacity to act. Satan merely reacts. When we are in Spirit, we act. When we are being religious, with our scriptural rule books, we merely react. Only God is a "person". All other entities are either agents of God or agents of Satan, who by definition are "not". Question: do we act by "instinct", merely reacting, or by God's grace do we turn and open to the only One who "is"?

Paul Miletus, I liked your inclusion of the Brass Serpent story. It certainly is salient to the discussion. The brass serpent has the form, but not the substance. Jesus had human form, but not sinful nature. So, is it possible for us, by God's grace, to choose the divine nature, not the fallen human nature, as the "substance" of our "person"? I think/hope so. Without that hope, what hope do I have? Thanks for the posted material; I liked it.

KSA, you are correct. Influence is not a matter. Substance is a matter. Influence is the clue that you are in the presence of substance (gravity = mass, etc). And the sphere, realm, domain of influence is what I like to call a "kingdom". In physics it is called a "field". It is a useful analogy.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Dear Jane:

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

I don't disagree with the master/slave analogy. My response is along the same lines as my last response to you in the "Last Adam" thread (did you get a chance to look at that? I know you've been pretty swamped). I keep coming back to this and related topics because, the way you are articulating the experience is a view that has caused me much mental disorder. Really. Read my description of the "angst" I've wrestled with in the "Last Adam" thread. In specific response to you here, though:

What about the law of sin and death? I don't obey that law because I'll get a ticket or get lashes from my master - as if its the external law of a kingdom (which is what a strict and exclusive master/slave analogy would turn it into). I obey that law because it is within me and operates like a law of nature. I do even that which I do not want to do. So did Paul. It compels me. Its not because an external master orders me to. Its because something within me compels me to.

I don't care "where" Satan or sin dwells as far as the complete theology goes - and, as such, I don't really care if Lee was right or wrong on Satan dwelling in our flesh. And the fact that the law of sin and death operates within me did make me an automaton - at least until the law of the spirit of life freed me. As one who has been saved, I'm not automaton now either.

At any rate, thoughts on "the law of sin and death" as an internal force?

In Love,

Peter

P.S. Have you ever dealt extensively with an alcoholic? I think sin works the same way with all of us, but it is really stark and clear - less subtle - with someone with an outward addiction.

Hi Peter, I am sorry I am so slow responding to your post and that I never responded to you on the other thread. It isn't because I didn't want to. Also, I'm sorry for skipping over so much other discussion here. I just saw your last post when I was ready to post this one. (Things move too fast!!) Maybe what I've written will be of some help, so here goes:

I am not saying that you have an external master who "tells" you to do something. The essence of bondage is that you are forced to do what you do not want to do because the one forcing you has more power than you and also has the right to control you.

One question I had for years was how some Christians seem just start growing normally after they are born again, while others seem to struggle with bondage issues (alchoholism or other such addictive behaviors, longterm depression, etc.) and not grow much at all after years of being a believer. When I first read Neil Anderson's book The Bondage Breaker, I started to get some understanding of this in a way that made sense to me.

I learned that it was possible for believers to be in bondage (meaning you continue to be driven to do things you don't want to do). This could be for a variety of reasons. One reason is the presence of ongoing sin for which there is no repentance which may seem to be unrelated to the problem in question. The person may not even be aware they are sinning. Another reason is deception (believing things that are not true). There are other reasons. I think you might benefit from reading this book if you feel so inclined.

I am not trying to objectify the experience we have in our flesh. The overpowering feeling that comes from within ourselves is very real. Anderson explains that any habitual sin in our life is legal ground for the devil to afflict us and cause us to do evil things. He actually overpowers us. In the same way that he injects thoughts in our mind that seem like they are our own, he can empower us to do evil and it seems the source of that power is in us.

I do not think this means that Satan himself is indwelling our body from birth. (Why is this thought a problem? Because it can cause us to have unhealthy self loathing. There doesn't seem much way of escape or peace until the rapture. The Bible tells us that we are to take care of our body and appreciate it as God's temple, not look at it as some piece of real estate with a permanent squatter living in it.)

Satan is not omnipresent or omniscient or omnipotent. Only God is these things. He doesn't work by indwelling us himself. The Bible makes it plain that Satan has an army of fallen angels and evil spirits under his command through whom he does his evil work. He uses these beings to carry out his plans against us. No doubt sometimes he is directly on the scene, as with Judas, and as we know he will be with the antichrist.

I have been personally involved in seeing some people find freedom from years of bondage when they removed the legal ground from their lives that Satan had to afflict them. They did this by specific repentance for habitual sin in their life, after God gave them light on what that sin was.

Here is one example: My husband and I were close friends with a couple who were also Christians. They left the LC after being in it for only a few years. The husband had left divinity school to join the LC and after leaving the LC, he struggled for years with bitterness and depression. On a number of occasions we heard him say some pretty shocking things about God. His wife had wept and prayed for him and had confided in me how upsetting it was to see what had happened to him.

A number of years passed and we had not seen them. (They lived in another city.) One day, not long after my husband and I had been helped by Neil Anderson's book, the husband of this couple called us and came to spend the night with us. He was on a business trip. That evening he confided in us his desperate need to find God again, and his feeling of complete and utter helplessness and hopelessness. He said no matter what he did, he just couldn't seem to get through or find God. He felt he was in some kind of torment. He said God never answered his prayers and it was like the heavens were closed to him.

My husband shared with him a little about what we had learned from Anderson's book and some of the experiences we had had. He was desperate for help. We all sat in our living room and prayed asking God to show him any ongoing sin in his life for which he had not repented. As we prayed, one word came into my mind. The word was "slander." I then told him that I had heard him slander God terribly on numerous occasions over the years. At first he seemed surprised to hear this, but as I gave him an example or two, he hung his head. I suggested that he should repent for doing this.

He sat there silently for a few minutes thinking about that and then said he wanted to repent. He was truly penitent and after a few more minutes of silence with his head bowed, he prayed and asked God to forgive him for his slanderous speaking about Him.

After this, he looked at us and said, "Nothing has changed. I don't feel any different." We said, "Well, it can't hurt to repent for slandering God." The next morning before he left, he told us again, he was in the same condition as when he came. We felt sad for him, but didn't know what else to tell him except that we would pray for him.

Two days later we received a phone call from him and his wife. The wife began with this statement, "I don’t know what you did to my husband, but thank you!" She described how the day before he had been outside working on their car, when all of a sudden he came running into the house. He ran across the living room to the corner and stood on his head, shouting something about being free. (This was something they had done over the years when something exciting or extremely noteworthy happened to them. They had seen Scrooge do this when he got delivered from his selfishness in an old, old movie. J) He proceeded to tell her what had happened to him.

He had been working on his car for a period of time and could not figure out why it wouldn’t start. He said he got more and more upset and that he eventually gave up in frustration. Then he decided to pray. He asked God to help him fix the car. He said he immediately knew what to do and did it. He turned the key and the car started.

He then proceeded to tell us that from that moment forward he realized that everything had changed. The dark cloud he had been under was gone and since that time he had been full of joy at having the Lord’s presence again.

About twelve years passed before I saw him again. When I did, he took me aside and told me that from the time of his repentance for slandering God to the present he had continued to walk with the Lord in freedom. His old anger and bitter expressions and depression were a thing of the past.

My point is that the ongoing sin in this brother’s life was legal ground for the devil to oppress him for many years. He was a Christian in bondage. When he repented the devil lost that ground and he found freedom.

Neil A. says that one of the most bondage engendering sins is unforgiveness. He encourages people to pray and ask the Lord to bring to their mind the names of any persons they have not forgiven. God is very faithful to answer this kind of prayer!!

I am not sure I am answering your question, but I hope this helps some. I have not dealt extensively with alchoholism. Anderson’s book does address this kind of addiction. Things like alcoholism and other addictions are more like fruits in a person’s life which have another underlying cause.

As usual, what is high on my list is not doctrinal perfection for the sake of intellectual satisfaction. I am into what helps people. Having a healthy understanding of how the powers of darkness work and the way to find lasting freedom from their attacks is important since we live in a world that is full of evidence of their persistent activity, not only in unbelievers but also in Christians.

Nuff said.

Thankful Jane

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I am not saying that you have an external master who "tells" you to do something. The essence of bondage is that you are forced to do what you do not want to do because the one forcing you has more power than you and also has the right to control you.

One question I had for years was how some Christians seem just start growing normally after they are born again, while others seem to struggle with bondage issues (alchoholism or other such addictive behaviors, longterm depression, etc.) and not grow much at all after years of being a believer. When I first read Neil Anderson's book The Bondage Breaker, I started to get some understanding of this in a way that made sense to me.

Thankful Jane[/FONT][/COLOR]

Jane:

Thanks for the thoughts and the story. I will pick up a copy of Neil A's book. On one hand, I think there is something particular going on with the stereotypical "addict" - on the other hand, I think it can do us a disservice by bracketing the "addict" behavior only to those cases where there is an obvious object of the addiction (like alcohol or whatever). Because, whether it is love for the bottle or love of self, sin operates in all of us the same way. It can be easy to say that since we don't do any of the really ugly outward behavior that we're okay. We're not.

Recently I have been fellowshipping with someone going through alcoholics anonymous. Upon reading some of their literature, I had the thought: geez, everyone should go through aa. Because our root problems are the same - even if we don't run to the bottle. We are liars. We want to hide when God calls us. We don't want to face the way we treat others and ourselves. We hide behind the things we're good at or the things we're comfortable in so that we don't have to face our lack. So we dive into the "meeting life" or we avoid certain people, or we stop praying, etc... As I have written before, I see sin as simply being the LIE - which came from the Father of Liars, the one who asserted there was something other than God. And there is nothing WE can do about our condition to "cure" ourselves. We need God - we need Christ, the one who condemned sin on the Cross. All of us and every day. Not just the ones who are caught in certain "classes" of sin. All of us and every day.

Whether the master (Satan) is within us or outside of us, the point is that his tool of bondage - Sin, the Lie - operates in our members.

Wretched folks that we are, who can deliver us? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

In Love,

Peter

[aron]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

I think it can do us a disservice by bracketing the "addict" behavior only to those cases where there is an obvious object of the addiction (like alcohol or whatever). Because, whether it is love for the bottle or love of self, sin operates in all of us the same way. It can be easy to say that since we don't do any of the really ugly outward behavior that we're okay. We're not.

Recently I have been fellowshipping with someone going through alcoholics anonymous. Upon reading some of their literature, I had the thought: geez, everyone should go through aa. Because our root problems are the same - even if we don't run to the bottle. We are liars. We want to hide when God calls us. We don't want to face the way we treat others and ourselves. We hide behind the things we're good at or the things we're comfortable in so that we don't have to face our lack.

Your observations are correct. As a recovering addict, and "recovery" (aa/na) regular, I see parallels all the time with "normal" people. But the meth addict has to see it because the "side effects" of his personality distortions will kill him. With others, they are overweight, or they shop too much, or they stress out on people at work, and they tell themselves they are okay, mostly, and don't face the thought/behavior patterns that are playing out.

Yes, the root problems are the same.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Jane:

Thanks for the thoughts and the story. I will pick up a copy of Neil A's book. On one hand, I think there is something particular going on with the stereotypical "addict" - on the other hand, I think it can do us a disservice by bracketing the "addict" behavior only to those cases where there is an obvious object of the addiction (like alcohol or whatever). Because, whether it is love for the bottle or love of self, sin operates in all of us the same way. It can be easy to say that since we don't do any of the really ugly outward behavior that we're okay. We're not.

Recently I have been fellowshipping with someone going through alcoholics anonymous. Upon reading some of their literature, I had the thought: geez, everyone should go through aa. Because our root problems are the same - even if we don't run to the bottle. We are liars. We want to hide when God calls us. We don't want to face the way we treat others and ourselves. We hide behind the things we're good at or the things we're comfortable in so that we don't have to face our lack. So we dive into the "meeting life" or we avoid certain people, or we stop praying, etc... As I have written before, I see sin as simply being the LIE - which came from the Father of Liars, the one who asserted there was something other than God. And there is nothing WE can do about our condition to "cure" ourselves. We need God - we need Christ, the one who condemned sin on the Cross. All of us and every day. Not just the ones who are caught in certain "classes" of sin. All of us and every day.

Whether the master (Satan) is within us or outside of us, the point is that his tool of bondage - Sin, the Lie - operates in our members.

Wretched folks that we are, who can deliver us? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

In Love,

Peter

Dear Peter,
I agree on all points you made. The LIE (made up of many lies) actually works in our minds. You'll find that Anderson shows that the battle with the evil one is fought with truth. Let me know what you think of what Anderson has to say. I don't think I did justice to what his message and insights in my posting.

Thankful Jane

[Paul Miletus]

In addition to my posts #43 and #49, I would like to bring your attention on John 3:14. I did not find any reference made by Nigel Tomes on this wonderful verse while contending with Brother Witness Lee's teaching regarding this thread. Perhaps, it was not touched by Nigel Tomes since this particular verse will turn upside-down his thesis on his writing titled "THE ENEMY WITHIN—SATAN IN THE BELIEVER’S BODY— LSM’s UNORTHODOX SATANOLOGY".

John 3:14 was addressed by the Lord Jesus Christ to Nicodemus who was a teacher and zealous Jew in his time. John 3:14 is as much applicable to us as in Nicodemus time. Likewise, John 3:14 was in reference of the Scripture in Numbers 21:9. Here in this discussion we have both the New Testament and the Old Testament interpreting the Word with the Word. I would like to take the liberty in saying that the Lord Jesus was allegorizing in this instance, and perhaps, it is more accurate to say that the Lord Jesus was directly revealing a mystery in typology.

I just pray that we may have an open spirit while reading the following teachings of Brother Witness Lee like the true Bereans of the Bible. My spirit rejoices in the Lord for knowing this interpretation by Brother Witness Lee on John 3:14.

John 3 : 14
14 And as Moses lifted up the 1serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

141 This chapter deals with regeneration. Regeneration, on one hand, brings the divine life with the divine nature into us. On the other hand, regeneration terminates the evil nature of Satan in our flesh. In Gen. 3 Satan, the serpent, injected his nature into man's flesh. When the children of Israel sinned against God, they were bitten by serpents (Num. 21:4-9). God told Moses to lift up a bronze serpent on their behalf for God's judgment, that by looking upon that bronze serpent all might live. That was a type. Here, in this verse, the Lord Jesus applied that type to Himself, indicating that when He was in the flesh, He was in "the likeness of the flesh of sin" (Rom. 8:3), which likeness is equal to the form of the bronze serpent. The bronze serpent had the form of the serpent but was without the serpent's poison. Christ was made in "the likeness of the flesh of sin," but He did not participate in any way in the sin of the flesh (2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15). When He was lifted up in the flesh on the cross, by His death Satan, the old serpent, was dealt with (12:31-33; Heb. 2:14). This means that the serpentine nature within fallen man has been dealt with. When a man is regenerated with the divine life in Christ, his satanic nature is annulled. Because of this, in this portion of the Word, when the Lord revealed the matter of regeneration to Nicodemus, He specifically mentioned this point. Nicodemus might have considered himself a moral and good man. But the Lord's word in this verse implied that regardless of how good Nicodemus might have been outwardly, he had the serpentine nature of Satan inwardly. As a descendant of Adam, he had been poisoned by the old serpent, and the serpent's nature was within him. He needed the Lord not only to be the Lamb of God to take away his sin (1:29) but also to be in the form of the serpent that his serpentine nature might be dealt with on the cross and that he might have eternal life. In the principle set forth in ch. 2, this is the changing of death into life.

The Serpent

Therefore, the Lord referred to the type of the brass serpent lifted up on a pole by Moses (Num. 21:9). The Lord seemed to be saying to him, "Your fathers were all bitten by poisonous serpents, and the poison of the serpents entered into them. Your fathers became serpents in the eyes of God. Because they were dying, Moses prayed to God on their behalf, and God told Moses to lift up a brass serpent on a pole to bear His judgment upon the poisoned Israelites. Everyone who had been poisoned by the serpents and who looked to the brass serpent lifted up on the pole lived." Many of the Israelites did this, and their lives were preserved. This is a type of regeneration. The Lord seemed to be telling Nicodemus, "Don't consider yourself as a gentleman. You must realize that you are one of the people who has been poisoned by the serpent and that you have the serpentine nature within you. Apparently you are a man; actually you are a serpent. In the eyes of God you are one of the serpents. Although you are a serpent, I have come to die for you. I shall die on the cross in the form of the serpent. When I am on the cross, in the eyes of God I shall not only be a substitute for sinners; I shall be judged there by God in the form of the serpent. The only difference is that the real serpent has poison, but I shall only be in the form of the serpent. I do not have the nature and the poison of the serpent. I have come in the likeness of the flesh of sin, in the form of the serpent, to die for all of you who have been poisoned by the serpent."