Toxic Faith, Arterburn & Felton

[OBW]

Nell, Admin,

I understand the points you are making. As for Lee's discussions in the Elder's training in 86, that is just before Benson started giving a brief series in Irving on the citizens and the army. While I do not recall the kind of requirement for a lock-step follow the leader mentality for the army, it did not yet appear that it was being applied to the citizens.

And it probably wasn't. But they were taking all the supplies and giving them to the army, so the citizens were starving.

I note Admin said there are lots of us who have experiences. I never denied that. I know they are true. I have seen some of it. My comment was that saying that there are a lot of experiences means nothing. We have to set them out for viewing. They must be entered into evidence.

Forget the LC faithful. SC and Ohio will not let you label because you say it is so, and rightly so. My comments were more rhetorical than a challenge. I know there is proof. Don't say there is. Lay it out.

And my comment about the lack of clarity on where to go applies to each of them, not just this one. Put the same kind of "meat" in the other threads you have applied here. You've sort of put your boat in the water with no tether to the dock and it's now drifting out to sea. Start the motor. Get the rudder set. chart a direction. There is a lot to put in these (although I haven't figured out if each truly needed to be in a separate thread).

[Thankful Jane]

Here is my testimony about these books. When I first discovered them in the early 90s, I didn't say "Aha! material with which to convict the LC! Let me make a case. Let me examine things to see if there is enough volume of evidence to be able to judge them as places of toxic faith or spiritual abuse ...."

Such thoughts never crossed my mind. These books helped me personally, mainly because I discovered that my experience and the LC experience was not unique to that period of time. There were many other groups with the same kind of dogma such as "the true church," "the one minister and ministry," "the place were real brotherly love was," etc. There were other groups with Christian leaders who were overstepping and making inroads into the personal and practical lives of believers. That realization shocked me to the core. Until that time, I thought my experience in the LC was unique.

What these books did for me was like a camera panning back so I could see the bigger picture and realize that the devil was active all over the place trying to frustrate the outpouring of the Spirit that happened during those years which brought so many people to faith in Christ.

I think this board is an offering to people who are grappling with their own personal pain from what happened to them. Frankly, it doesn't matter if it happened to 1 or 100 other people. If it happened to me, I need help.

Maybe the boat on this thread hasn't been able to get out of the dock because its trying to answer the objections of the police on the docks blowing whistles at it.

Thankful Jane

[aron]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

What these books did for me was like a camera panning back so I could see the bigger picture and realize that the devil was active all over the place trying to frustrate the outpouring of the Spirit that happened during those years which brought so many people to faith in Christ.

I agree. The bigger picture, for me, is that we sinners one day got a revelation of God's saving love for us in Jesus Christ. Then, as we attempted to go on in our human lives, following the vision that was imparted in this revelation, some of us found ourselves in what, looking back, we can refer to as "abusive" or "toxic" spiritual environments. To me, whether it was in the Witness Lee-led local churches or in another group is not so important as the realization that our spiritual journey was derailed, was hijacked by someone with control issues.

How much the "shoe fits" to our particular experience is not so important as discussing the phenomena of people leaving thier allotted portion and trampling on thier neighbors' portion. The 'boundaries' thing is huge, huge, huge. We don't get into the Holy City until we get clear what is mine, yours, ours, and God's. This is basic, foundational stuff, and in the toxic spiritual community it gets distorted, and needs to be addressed, irrespective of the particulars involved.

Relationships between the believers is an important issue, one of the most important we can discuss. Also follows the relationship between the believer and his/her family, whether christian or not, and with neighbors, co-workers, other people in "the world", etc. Look how the toxic spiritual realm spreads out and poisons all those other relationships as well. Look how the 'pyramid scheme' of hierarchy, with its pecking order of pride and judgment, elevating some people and denigrating others, spreads into the relationships outside the spiritual fellowship.

I am not interested in Witness Lee, Watchman Nee, Ray Graver, or the Living Stream Ministry. I am interested in continuing my journey of faith. This discussion is interesting to me because it sheds light on the bigger picture. Relationships among the believers is a huge part of the journey. In healthy spiritual environments, the relations between the believers edify, uplift, encourage, strengthen, fortify and equip the sojourners on their way. In toxic environments the believer becomes a commodity in someone else's realm, and is sucked dry until the husk is discarded. I daresay that on this forum the consensus would hold that faith in Jesus Christ being equated to being "absolute for the ministry" equals a spiritually toxic environment.

I think there are lessons here for everyone, regardless of the particulars. But OBW's point of not assuming all the particulars fit every case is also worth remembering. That, to me, is why the 'bigger picture' is so important. Otherwise we mislabel, or say "that doesn't apply to me" and miss the bigger point.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Forget the LC faithful. SC and Ohio will not let you label because you say it is so, and rightly so. My comments were more rhetorical than a challenge. I know there is proof. Don't say there is. Lay it out.

And a good morning to you Brother Mike!