Who Said It?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I heard him say this, or something close to it, many times. The quote is from memory. But it is accurate.

Also, I'm wondering why you don't remember Lee saying this kind of this thing, or why you would be hesitant to acknowledge he said it.

You seem to know a lot about the Recovery, except when it comes to Witness Lee. Where were you?

He was always talking about "the Recovery" being God's unique move. I heard him say many times if you left the Recovery you could no longer go on with the Lord. He said that every brother that ever left the Recovery lost the flow. He even included T.A. Sparks in this number!

He drilled that into us and it took many years for me to get over it.

Yes, I am aware he said things like this, which is why I went ahead with my post on the assumption that this is exactly what he said. However, to say that "the local church is the Lord's unique move on Earth today" can be a valid scriptural teaching if you are not referring to your sect but merely discussing Matt 16, or 1 Cor 3, etc.

Likewise I could say that what the Lord is doing among us is His unique move on Earth as a personal testimony without any implication that He isn't doing anything else anywhere else. My point would be that this was the Lord's doing, not man's.

The quotes that UntoHim provided are a good example, the one that condemns denominations as being the "fold" is very arrogant, but it doesn't deny that denominations are part of the Lord's move on Earth, instead WL says that denominations are for the "blind" believers. So as ugly as it is it does not agree with the quote you gave.

Why wouldn't I want the reference? The quote has much more power and force if you provide the reference. Also, if that is in fact what WL said it condemns everyone that heard it and did nothing. So if it turns out WL said this during a message I heard I should repent.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The quotes that UntoHim provided are a good example, the one that condemns denominations as being the "fold" is very arrogant, but it doesn't deny that denominations are part of the Lord's move on Earth, instead WL says that denominations are for the "blind" believers. So as ugly as it is it does not agree with the quote you gave.

Yes the quotes absolutely agree with the quote Igzy gave and that is why I quoted them! Witness Lee denied that the denominations are part of the Lord's move on earth all day every day. To say otherwise is laughable. In fact I'm going to ask you to show us where Lee claimed that any other contemporary Christian group, denomination or movement was anything other than outside the Lord's move on earth. You will not find such a quote from Lee because he considered his ministry the one ministry and he was the only one speaking for God on earth, at least since 1945.

Why wouldn't I want the reference? The quote has much more power and force if you provide the reference. Also, if that is in fact what WL said it condemns everyone that heard it and did nothing. So if it turns out WL said this during a message I heard I should repent.

Why should you repent? You never taught any such thing did you? Look, people get the wrong idea when some people say Witness Lee was a false teacher that makes his followers false believers. This is not true. And just because one finds themselves in the unfortunate position of being taught heretical things it does not make them a heretic. The falseness belongs to the teacher. The heresy belongs to the teacher.

In regards to quoting Lee, most of the time it becomes the dog chasing his tail. Lee defenders will simply say "that's not in context...let's see the context!". Then you will quote a whole paragraph or two....still the same game of denial and avoidance...they will say you have to read the whole message, or the whole book...and on and on you go. Most of the people in the forum have many years and decades of experience with the teachings and practice. Let's not kid each other.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Why should you repent? You never taught any such thing did you? Look, people get the wrong idea when some people say Witness Lee was a false teacher that makes his followers false believers. This is not true. And just because one finds themselves in the unfortunate position of being taught heretical things it does not make them a heretic. The falseness belongs to the teacher. The heresy belongs to the teacher.

If i heard anyone claim that "this is the one unique move of God on Earth" then I would consider it a sin to not object. First, it is one thing to share a testimony of how God has moved in your life, it is quite another to say that God is not moving anywhere else on Earth or in anyone else's life. The principle here is that if you see someone sin and do nothing then their sin will be on you, if you rebuke them then their sin will not be on you. I have already given 4 reasons why I consider this statement to be a sin. However, I would add that using the search function that LSM provides and trying various iterations, I was unable to find an exact match for this quote.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In fact I'm going to ask you to show us where Lee claimed that any other contemporary Christian group, denomination or movement was anything other than outside the Lord's move on earth. You will not find such a quote from Lee because he considered his ministry the one ministry and he was the only one speaking for God on earth, at least since 1945.

I am not an expert on WL, in fact since 1981 I rarely heard him speak, nor did I read his written messages. Thanks for the offer to search through every word he ever spoke but I think I'll have to decline the offer.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am not an expert on WL, in fact since 1981 I rarely heard him speak, nor did I read his written messages. Thanks for the offer to search through every word he ever spoke but I think I'll have to decline the offer.

If you are not an expert on Witness Lee I'm not sure why you get so involved in these conversations that revolve around the person and work of Lee and the religion based upon his person and work. Anybody who was in the Local Church for more than just a few months had to become an expert on Witness Lee. It was sink or swim. Sorry, but your contention that you did not read the written messages of Witness Lee for the better part of your stay in the Local Church is simply not believable. Why would you have stayed around? Every meeting centered around his teachings. The "churchlife" was based upon his teachings and the practices that he established/approved. You are not making any sense.

ZNP, you are being argumentative and contentious for the sake of being argumentative and contentious. This is part of what I mean by "kidding ourselves".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

If you are not an expert on Witness Lee I'm not sure why you get so involved in these conversations that revolve around the person and work of Lee and the religion based upon his person and work. Anybody who was in the Local Church for more than just a few months had to become an expert on Witness Lee. It was sink or swim. Sorry, but your contention that you did not read the written messages of Witness Lee for the better part of your stay in the Local Church is simply not believable. Why would you have stayed around? Every meeting centered around his teachings. The "churchlife" was based upon his teachings and the practices that he established/approved. You are not making any sense.

ZNP, you are being argumentative and contentious for the sake of being argumentative and contentious. This is part of what I mean by "kidding ourselves".

Well, I have shared my personal testimony repeatedly but I will walk you through it since you seem incapable of doing it on your own.

1. I worked for 18 months on the meeting hall in Irving, for much of that time it was 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. I was not supported financially other than hospitality. As a result after about 4 months I was so destitute I couldn't afford toothpaste, though the day my toothpaste did run out a family from Houston mailed me 5$. During those 18 months I stayed in 10 different hospitalities. Between the constant moving, extremely heavy work load, and being financially destitute I did not buy or read WL books.

2. I immediately moved from Irving to Odessa. At the time Odessa was a home meeting of about 25 saints in total including children. Their was no bookroom. By the time I left a few years later they were just beginning to get a book room started. If I bought any book at that time it would have been from a bookstore and therefore would have been WN, not WL.

3. I left Odessa shortly after publicly rebuking the elders in Texas. I moved to NY and almost immediately moved to NH taking a teaching job at a private boarding school. There was one other family from the LRC in Hanover, which was nearby, and we had weekly home meetings for that year. Once again I was not at a locality that had a book room so our meetings and fellowship was based on the Bible.

4. NYC wanted to send me to the FTTT so after teaching one year I went straight to NY and then to Taiwan. Because of the weight restrictions in International flight I didn't take any books other than my Bible, Hymnal and Experience of Life (the required book).

5. During the 3rd semester of the FTTT, and my first semester in the FTTT we went through the Experience of Life, sat through daily meetings not being run by WL even though he was at Hall 1, and then spent the afternoons and evenings in the gospel work. The only other WL publication we used was the booklet for preaching the gospel, a short booklet that leads to baptism.

6. From then until 1995 I stayed in Taiwan, met at Hall 19 and Hall 3. I visited Hall 1 book store a few times, thumbed through some of the new books but was never interested enough to buy them. Nor could I afford to buy the Life study sets. I did train trainees to preach the gospel in English in preparation for them to go to Russia. I did not use WL's materials for my training.

7. In 95 I returned to NY and made a very difficult transition to a new profession which required 12 hour days and 6 day weeks. By this time the saints I was with were not pleased with LSM to put it mildly. They did not use LSM publications for morning watch, we used the Bible. We didn't use their messages for the meetings either. I did not see any need to buy their books and didn't. I stayed until 98.

I find it insulting of you to accuse me of being a liar. Also, I think it is clear that for 20 years I was "absolute" for the church life and spent many years "full time". So I also find it offensive that you would question why I would be interested in this forum saying that I am merely an argumentative and contentious person.

While in Taipei I documented over 1,000 gospel events. Times in which I preached the gospel. I would think that I had similar numbers when I was in Houston at Rice, but we didn't document. Questions like "what about the Catholics" or "other denominations" came up frequently. I fellowshipped with brothers and sisters who didn't meet with us but were also involved in the gospel, particularly those in Intervarsity while in Houston, and various Bible studies while in Odessa. My response to those that said "what about other Christians that love the Lord" was that "I also love the Lord". I trained others to preach the gospel and never once taught that "we were the only place God was moving" such a concept was outrageously offensive to me then and now. To me it would be a very serious thing for any person to say it.

[OBW]

ZNP,

Based on your most recent post, it would appear to me that you spent several years dancing around the edges of something you never really understood. If you never actually read the stuff, but only existed on what you heard in various localities, it was never "perfect Lee" no matter how much we say that they are all parroting Lee.

In fact, I have found that it is seldom in hearing and speaking that I notice errors, or the questions arise. I was gone many years from the LRC before I questioned its teachings. Only when I began to read it for myself from that online treasury was the shoddy theology, illogic, and logical errors made clear. And from what I can see in the works I have read or perused, the logical errors were seldom just mistakes, but willful steps taken to force the discussion where it was wanted to go. Even Nee did it. Not at the level that Lee did.

I would suggest that you were captured by the way the LRC "does church" more than anything else. It was (even still can be) appealing. But the way you do church does not command blessing upon your errors, no matter how many times you sing Psalm 133. ("Your" is in reference to Lee and the LRC, not you.)

I'm beginning to see a disconnect between the LRC you experienced while working on the Irving hall, living in Odessa, New Hampshire, and the FTTT in Taiwan, and the LRC that Lee taught year after year. And maybe you are right that you didn't hear that much about Lee. They weren't reading sermons out on the property in Irving. And no matter what you think of George W, he was among some who were not the most lock step, turn off your mind supporters (although I think he may have simply allowed himself to slide into the background now).

I think George was a little like you in that respect. There was something about the LRC that was appealing to him and once he reached a certain age, it was hard to consider that he could be that wrong, so he just resigned himself to it. My last contact with George was quite disappointing. He seemed an empty shell compared to the man I knew in Dallas. Almost seemed to not recognize me other than someone to repeat trite catch phrases to.

And if you returned to NY where they didn't even use LSM materials for morning watch, I would say that the "church life" that you were so strong for was not the "church life" that Lee intended. Or that so many others were involved in. It was something else. Just happened to stay loosely connected with the LRC.

In an odd way, your stories about time in the LRC are like viewing the whole of the United States from the perspective of 5 different remote rural communities. Or the working conditions at a NY sweat shop as seen from the owner's office on Madison Avenue. Your experiences are real. And they are personal. But they are not the LRC. Not the one that I joined in 73 and left in 87. Or the one that send my sister to Taiwan, and holds her and my brother and father to this day. And I am sure that Dallas is not entirely representative of the most gung-ho localities. But it is far from anything that you suggest as ever being the norm in the LRC.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Based on your most recent post, it would appear to me that you spent several years dancing around the edges of something you never really understood.

I enjoyed this post.

Couple of comments in response.

1. I like GW. And, yes we are probably quite similar in many respects. However, I did experience a year and a half where he was trying to break me in the same way you might break a horse.

2. I find it very difficult to consider my experience "dancing around the edges":

Houston with RG and BP -- not the edges
Irving at time of construction -- not edges
Odessa -- at time the gospel move was all the rage, hence the reason to send GW and 2 other brothers out there.
NH -- that was the edges, but it was for one year.
Taipei during the FTTT -- not the edges, though perhaps from a US perspective.
NY -- not the edge, a very significant church, though loosely affiliated with lSM.

Also, although I didn't major in WL I actively spoke and taught the bible virtually every week and trained trainees in the gospel work.

Personally, I feel that saints who attended LRC meetings as the sum total of their Christian experience, in my mind they were dancing around the edges of the Christian experience. Yes I heard many quote WL in messages and testimonies, but I always felt this was due to a lack of experience of Christ of their own.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

1. I worked for 18 months on the meeting hall in Irving, for much of that time it was 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. I was not supported financially other than hospitality. As a result after about 4 months I was so destitute I couldn't afford toothpaste, though the day my toothpaste did run out a family from Houston mailed me 5$. During those 18 months I stayed in 10 different hospitalities. Between the constant moving, extremely heavy work load, and being financially destitute I did not buy or read WL books.

ZNP, I've been meaning to ask you, would you be able to share with us how you were chosen to work on the stone crew?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

ZNP, I've been meaning to ask you, would you be able to share with us how you were chosen to work on the stone crew?

That is hilarious. Simple and obvious. I was in charge of the crew that built the planters. We finished our work shortly after the stone crew began under the leadership of Pester. Once we were done the "planter crew" was rolled into the stone crew. We were not chosen based on any skills.

[Cal]

Z, I think you are going to have to take the word of those of us who heard Lee teaching live or via video tape many times.

Lee said many things about the Recovery being God's unique move and he specifically left out all of the denominations, free groups, etc.

I didn't "make up a quote." I recollected what he said and the way he said it from many experiences of hearing him say that kind of thing.

In case you've forgotten, the gospels were written from memory, too. And the same incident is often recorded multiple times quoting Jesus slightly differently.

Please get over it and stop side-tracking threads. Thanks.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In regards to quoting Lee, most of the time it becomes the dog chasing his tail. Lee defenders will simply say "that's not in context...let's see the context!". Then you will quote a whole paragraph or two....still the same game of denial and avoidance...they will say you have to read the whole message, or the whole book...and on and on you go. Most of the people in the forum have many years and decades of experience with the teachings and practice. Let's not kid each other.

I'm not kidding anyone. This is a basic tenet of good scholarship. All of his published words, at least during a significant portion of his life, are available online in a searchable database. There is no reason to make up quotes. It doesn't add to anyone's credibility when you ascribe quotes without providing the reference. To accuse KR of bad scholarship in the Fermentation of the present rebellion, and then to condone equally bad scholarship would be hypocritical. One weight, one measure.