spirit, soul and body

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Today, the role of elder has much less to do with shepherding, than it does with "working together with headquarters." One example is the aspect of counseling. Elders have gone to meetings for decades, yet have no clue how to shepherd or counsel troubled marriages. The results are so many broken homes. Some of the BB's have gone on record to say that any marital or family help we may seek is just "chicken soup for the soul."

For problems of the body one may see a doctor.
For problems of the mind one may visit a psychiatrist.
Yet only God can solve the problems of the spirit.

Anonymous, The Mystery of Human Life

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the "soft sciences" but I'd say it implies that there's a role for a little chicken soup for the soul when the soul is sick.

These people surely don't believe that their faith in Christ will prevent an appendectomy and if you're a schitzophrenic or actively suicidal, you certainly can't just rely upon the process of eventual transformation to take care of that for you. It's frankly just religious superstition for them to reject even simple counseling as beneath them simply because it is primarily focused on the problems of the mind and the soul. This was a problem for me as well at one point but being fully human is definitely a part of being a normal Christian.

"O Lord Jesus!" will not immediately remove either my bunions or my phobias. Try it and see! If either causes me significant problem moving forward with the Lord, I'd best deal with them as best I can so that I can again move forward with the Lord.

And a counselor with the leading of the Spirit and the knowledge of the Word? How valuable is that? Folks, that's just the reality of being an elder!

We don't want to be those building with wood, hay and stubble, for sure, but there are materials of gold, silver AND precious stone to build with.

Some teach and practice as if the only building material were "gold" but if a family ends up in a heap of collapse at the end of your kind of building effort, I'd say that was pretty good evidence that the wrong material was being used in that application.

I'll let you decide if it was really gold or only wood.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

For problems of the body one may see a doctor.
For problems of the mind one may visit a psychiatrist.
Yet only God can solve the problems of the spirit.

Anonymous, The Mystery of Human Life

This stupid quote fits into the "tripartite" theology of LSM, and it encapsulates a whole lot of error into a marketable product for LC consumption.

I know one dear couple who decided to seek psychiatric help for their marriage, i.e. "problems of the mind." They decided that Christian counseling was a little "too biased" for them, so they sought out "God-less" counsel for their "needs." I believe close to thousands, literally, took hospitality from them over the years, while they served the work and the church in Cleveland. Today their marriage is over. An elder once told me "the church doesn't have any responsibility for their situation."

Andrew Yu, who authored that booklet, was never a shepherd, only a ministry zealot.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This stupid quote fits into the "tripartite" theology of LSM, and it encapsulates a whole lot of error into a marketable product for LC consumption.

Ohio,

I'm confused by your rejoinder here. YP's use of MOHL's little tripartite quote was to show a contradiction between some of the BB who now say all psychological counselling is worthless ... at least I think that's why he used it.

Now you come telling of a family who tried counselling, it appears to have failed them (as did the church), and you find the three-part quote stupid.

What exactly did you mean?


SC

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

YP's use of MOHL's little tripartite quote was to show a contradiction between some of the BB who now say all psychological counselling is worthless ... at least I think that's why he used it.

Yes, that's why I used it. (Was I that opaque?)

At first I thought that it seemed that Ohio's rejoinder concerned (at least in part) the risks of seeking assistance from secular counseling. I'm not here to promote that specifically but a single or even many bad results doesn't undo the good that has been done in many other contexts. Just because some surgeons might kill you if you go to them doesn't mean surgeons are bad. Right, Ohio?

But on re-reading, I'm thinking that maybe Ohio mostly meant to say that the compartmentalization of human beings into these tidy categories has been used too frequently as an escape clause for anyone who might otherwise bear responsibility to see that human beings were healthy and proper before God and their fellow man (or woman, as the case may be.)

Did I get it right the second time, Ohio?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Yes, that's why I used it. (Was I that opaque?)

At first I thought that it seemed that Ohio's rejoinder concerned (at least in part) the risks of seeking assistance from secular counseling. I'm not here to promote that specifically but a single or even many bad results doesn't undo the good that has been done in many other contexts. Just because some surgeons might kill you if you go to them doesn't mean surgeons are bad. Right, Ohio?

But on re-reading, I'm thinking that maybe Ohio mostly meant to say that the compartmentalization of human beings into these tidy categories has been used too frequently as an escape clause for anyone who might otherwise bear responsibility to see that human beings were healthy and proper before God and their fellow man (or woman, as the case may be.)

Did I get it right the second time, Ohio?

Both are right.

That quote was used by my ones I love as incentive to seek help outside of Christ and/or bible-centered counseling. They had wrongly "compartmentalized" themselves and their marriage into thinking a certain part God could help and another part God could not. This is a bit different from going to a surgeon for a broken arm. Matters of the soul and spirit cannot be so easily dissected.

Sorry if it seemed I am against the views of tripartite man. I basically agree with that, but not to the extremes. Is it not similar to the BARM discussions about God Himself "distinct and separate" eventually leading to tri-theism? Segmenting our soul's needs to psychiatry in lieu of godly Christian marriage counseling cannot be a good thing. We humans are more "one" than "three" and the help we seek should reflect that. Christian counselors do not compartmentalize the soul and spirit in this way.

Obviously this family did not find marriage counselors in the LC, and this has always troubled me. Elders "job descriptions" are defined by the ministry, and the ministry demeans counseling as "chicken soup" or other pejoratives such as "self-help." The result is that many families suffer. Families that have devoted many years to church service.

[KSA]

Tripartite man is one of the core teachings in LC. This teaching also had an immense influence on my Christian life. I have no doubt that there is a difference between our spirit and our soul. However, I think that in LC we had some unhealthy tendencies. For example, many their think that the things of the soul are negative and bad. Therefore a big stress on how bad are our opinions and soulish attachments. As a result, the cross was understood mainly as the denial of the soul. We were taught to get out of our mind and get into our spirit. There is much to discuss here. So the thread is open.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is a bit different from going to a surgeon for a broken arm. Matters of the soul and spirit cannot be so easily dissected.

Brother, I do respect your opinion in it but let me assure you from certain personal experience that for at least some problems of the mind, such as delusional paranoid schitzophrenia, there is the need for someone with sufficient skill in dealing with that part of our being in particular and soul and spirit are so easy to distinguish in that case.

I would suggest, however, that one should be wise and go to the right sort of specialist for whatever the ailment is. You should not consult your opthamologist about your bunions. And for a believing married couple to take their marriage troubles to a secular psychiatrist is probably a similar mistake.

My point in it, however, was ulitimately to reinforce your statement and your view.

Helping troubled couples through the practical problems of their marriages is probably one of the best things a real elder could apply himself (maybe HERself?) too. The situation of trust offers unique opportunities for the genuine ministry of Christ to touch the broken and needful people. To systematically avoid undertaking that aspect of the responsibility of being an elder is yet another item in the column of "not quite right" in the Local Church that even today still attempts to maintain a fascade that EVERYTHING is ALWAYS right among them.

To avoid treating the ailments of the soul because one day it will be healed through transformation is the same superstitious thing as waiting to have your broken arm set because one day you will be glorified. And, surely, treatments of the soul by knowledgable believers is to be preferred to most of the secular notions that dominate the mental health field.

[KSA]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Brother, I do respect your opinion in it but let me assure you from certain personal experience that for at least some problems of the mind, such as delusional paranoid schitzophrenia, there is the need for someone with sufficient skill in dealing with that part of our being in particular and soul and spirit are so easy to distinguish in that case.

To distinguish is not always too easy. Schizophrenia might be an indication of demon oppression. Medication will not help here. But, of course, an experienced man should deal with this.

On a number of cases, a specialist is not available. For example, in Russia it is very uncommon to go to a consultant. We do not have many, and they are basically unbelievers. Therefore, encounters are in great demand, and they really help much. You'll be surprised how much psycho problems are caused by spiritual causes, like unforgiveness, inherited curses, witchcraft, occultism, etc.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by KSA

To distinguish is not always too easy. Schizophrenia might be an indication of demon oppression. Medication will not help here. But, of course, an experienced man should deal with this.

On a number of cases, a specialist is not available. For example, in Russia it is very uncommon to go to a consultant. We do not have many, and they are basically unbelievers. Therefore, encounters are in great demand, and they really help much. You'll be surprised how much psycho problems are caused by spiritual causes, like unforgiveness, inherited curses, witchcraft, occultism, etc.

Again. I do not speak in the abstract about theories or doctrines but of real first-hand personal knowledge of someone who I know is a believer who also suffered severe mental illness.

I strongly recommend that no one should be superstitious about dealing with ailments of the soul.

[KSA]

It is not superstition, it's a fact. The Bible is clear that our mind is a special target of the enemy. I was replying to the part of your post where you said that in a case of mental illness it is easy to distinghish between soul and spirit. I tell you that mental problems can be the result of spiritual causes. In LC this area was completely overlooked. Many mental problems are the result of believing satan's lie. I know of one brother who was a drug addict. He could not be delivered, because he believed a lie that he is not a drug addict. Once he recognized it, he was delivered. Books of Neil Anderson are helpful in this regard.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by KSA

To distinguish is not always too easy. Schizophrenia might be an indication of demon oppression. Medication will not help here. But, of course, an experienced man should deal with this.

On a number of cases, a specialist is not available. For example, in Russia it is very uncommon to go to a consultant. We do not have many, and they are basically unbelievers. Therefore, encounters are in great demand, and they really help much. You'll be surprised how much psycho problems are caused by spiritual causes, like unforgiveness, inherited curses, witchcraft, occultism, etc.

You make some good points here KSA. When one sees schizophrenia in action, it's hard sometimes NOT to believe it is demonic oppression. Our experience with psychiatric specialists is that they can do little more than sample "wonder drugs" which can do little more than "sedate" a wild mind.

I appreciate your views here. Living in America, the medical profession operates under this premise -- all mental health issues are biologically based. Iow, there must be some chemical imbalance, requiring the proper "meds." I am not sure which view is correct, or both of them.

Btw, the LC definitely leans toward the western style medicinal approach. The Pentecostal churches, however, lean toward the spiritual causes which you have enumerated. Their practices of deliverance are compelling to one such as I, having spent decades dismissing such nonsense as hocus-pocus.

[KSA]

Mental illness can be caused by chemical imbalance. We should not see a demon on every doorknob. But many mental problems are caused by demons. You may read Neil Anderson for some examples from his practice. Demons did not disappeared after the times of apostles. They are still active. And if we deny it, we are in trouble.

[KSA]

Tripartite man is one of the core teachings in LC. This teaching also had an immense influence on my Christian life. I have no doubt that there is a difference between our spirit and our soul. However, I think that in LC we had some unhealthy tendencies. For example, many their think that the things of the soul are negative and bad. Therefore a big stress on how bad are our opinions and soulish attachments. As a result, the cross was understood mainly as the denial of the soul. We were taught to get out of our mind and get into our spirit. There is much to discuss here.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Interesting topic! The human mind. How complex is that huh?

Generally I think there are 3 categories of problems:

Certain problems are biology based and can be effectively managed by medication.

Other problems effect the mind but they are rooted in past issues typically family related and often include childhood abuse e.g. sexual. At minimum quality counseling is recommended.

Then there are issues of demon possession or other spiritually related issues i.e. a person who habitually sins and their mind has no rest or a person who does not habitually sin and yet their over sensitive conscience condemns them constantly.

In marriage if one or both of the partners have any of the above conditions this will add to the difficulty of communication, problem solving, decision making, etc. A good marriage counselor will first try to determine the condition of the two people involved as individuals before getting to the "how to have a good marriage" part. Because for example if they teach some communication techniques but the wife was sexually abused in her childhood by her uncle they will have to address that issue first. Because that issue has deeply affected the psyche and will in adulthood manifest itself in trust issues, control issues, power issues, etc. All of which will subsequently have an adverse effect on martial communication.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Pentecostal churches, however, lean toward the spiritual causes which you have enumerated. Their practices of deliverance are compelling to one such as I, having spent decades dismissing such nonsense as hocus-pocus.

I do not dismiss them as nonsense at all.

I fully believe them.

Even Witness Lee taught that the ones that go out to preach the gospel must be prepared to cast out demons when they go out.

But let me just say this to all those who would attempt to steer someone away from mental health services in favor of some kinds of religious teachings about tarot cards and Ouija boards: unless you personally can ensure that that person you say has a demonic oppression or some such can get free of that, I would even say that unless you personally are able to get rid of that for them, they should be encouraged to always do their best and not put under condemnation and yet more oppression by some kind of religious opinion.

I'm done now.

[Cal]

Part of the debate on soul and spirit hinges on what we mean when we say something is genuinely beneficial or helpful to a human being. When hyper-spiritual Christans say counseling cannot really help somebody, what they mean is that counseling cannot itself ultimately save someone's soul. But this is still an extreme view. Because counseling might be the first step to getting someone to a place where they can receive genuine salvation from God. So in that sense it is very helpful.

Saying that psychological counseling cannot help someone carries all sorts of ramifications that anti-psychology advocates probably never considered. If counseling can't help someone, then neither can training a child in life lessons, or giving your wife flowers, or calling your mom and telling her you were thinking of her, or cooking a meal for a sick neighbor, or listening to a grieving friend, or any other legitimate good work, because those are directed at the human soul. Yet all those kinds of things convey the love of God to people every day.

Like most LCers, I looked down my nose at "good works," because they weren't spiritual enough for me. That was nothing more than ignorant snobbery. I've come to see now that some of the most spiritual acts I have ever witnessed have been simple acts of love and service which met people's needs and potentially opened their hearts to God.

There is a beautiful connection between spirit and soul there which I think God intended and which the LC spirit-good/soul-bad dichotomy tramples underfoot. The spirit and soul are meant to complement each other and work together, not to be antagonistic with each other. Did any one ever think that this is what it means when we say our "soul magnifies the Lord?" What do LCers mean when they say we need to "express God," anyway? Sometimes I think they don't really know. It's just a high peak concept to them.

The Bible says the Spirit wars against the flesh. I don't think it ever says the Spirit wars against the soul. When the Bible says deny the soul and lose the soul it doesn't mean lose the function or even experience of the soul, it means to give control of it over to the Holy Spirit. It means surrendering what we think, feel and decide to do over to God. When the Bible says the soulish man cannot understand the things of God, it simply means without the Spirit we cannot have what theologians call "special revelation."

The teaching that we should not enjoy things "in our soul" is at worst an absurd contradiction and at best a poor way of expressing a basic truth. We are our soul and beside that it's pretty tough to enjoy anything without our emotions being involved. The truth should be rather expressed as: Whatever we do we should do under God's control, whether it is laughing at a joke, playing with our children, taking our bride (or husband) out on a date, or just marveling at nature. The Bible says God has given us "freely all things to enjoy." Not enjoying those things all around us which he has given could be construed as a lack of appreciation and worship.

[OBW]

Great thread. Also complex.

I must say from experience that counseling is an excellent course of action. But as Ohio has suggested, just any ole counselor may not do.

KSA is right that we in the 21st century have tended to ignore the reality of demons, yet those who have not tend to find everything wrong to be a demon.

Igzy has really hit the target. It is extremely complex. The soul is not inherently bad. Counseling is not a boogeyman nor is it a panacea.

Some rant against the “chicken soup for the soul” ideas, yet forget that common kindness is the second half of the great commandment — love your neighbor as yourself.

Others rely on such self-help teachings exclusively and miss that the way, truth and life are only in Christ, as is true peace.

I’m still getting my mind around this one. May not have any specific comments, but this is an important thread for consideration.

Thanks, YP.

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by KSA

It is not superstition, it's a fact. The Bible is clear that our mind is a special target of the enemy. I was replying to the part of your post where you said that in a case of mental illness it is easy to distinghish between soul and spirit. I tell you that mental problems can be the result of spiritual causes. In LC this area was completely overlooked. Many mental problems are the result of believing satan's lie. I know of one brother who was a drug addict. He could not be delivered, because he believed a lie that he is not a drug addict. Once he recognized it, he was delivered. Books of Neil Anderson are helpful in this regard.

I believe the local church has not overlooked the spiritual causes of mental problems. If you can just give some time to read Brother Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man" you would know exactly where the local church stands on this matter. As an example, I am posting the following excerpt:

The book of James was written to the believers. Verses 14 and 15 of chapter three say clearly what the relationship between the soul-life and the work of Satan is: "But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which descends from above, but is earthly, soulish, demonic." We see here that there is a kind of wisdom which comes from Satan. This kind of wisdom is also from man's soul. This causes us to conclude that this kind of wisdom is the result of the work of Satan in man's soul. This is very clear. "The flesh" is the factory of the devil, but the work of Satan on the soul is no less than his work in the body. These two verses tell us that envying and strife occur due to the believer's seeking of knowledge. This is because the devil works in man's soul-life. A believer may only know that the enemy can tempt man to sin but may not know that he can also give thoughts to man. The fall of man was due to man's love of knowledge and love of wisdom. Even now Satan still uses this to cause a believer to keep his soul-life as a machine for his work.

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

I believe the local church has not overlooked the spiritual causes of mental problems. If you can just give some time to read Brother Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man" you would know exactly where the local church stands on this matter. As an example, I am posting the following excerpt:

Well, around here, I couldn't get them to open Watchman Nee. Especially during the turmoil. They ONLY wanted to hear what the blendeds had to say and what is new from Anaheim. All own his books, but have progressed and grown so much spiritually that going back and reading Watchman Nee feels like a step backwards. So, around here they DO ignore mental problems and want nothing to do with healing the mind through a touch of God. It is repeated like a mantra..."stay in the ministry, everything will be OK, stay in the ministry, stay in the minstry..." Of course "the ministry" is LSM.

I believe we have seen enough evidence here on the boards to prove that indeed there are digressions from Watchman Nee. The Local Churches do not follow the pattern of Watchman Nee, they have now progressed to the blendeds.
Sue

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Suannehill

Well, around here, I couldn't get them to open Watchman Nee. Especially during the turmoil. They ONLY wanted to hear what the blendeds had to say and what is new from Anaheim. All own his books, but have progressed and grown so much spiritually that going back and reading Watchman Nee feels like a step backwards. So, around here they DO ignore mental problems and want nothing to do with healing the mind through a touch of God. It is repeated like a mantra..."stay in the ministry, everything will be OK, stay in the ministry, stay in the minstry..." Of course "the ministry" is LSM.

I believe we have seen enough evidence here on the boards to prove that indeed there are digressions from Watchman Nee. The Local Churches do not follow the pattern of Watchman Nee, they have now progressed to the blendeds.
Sue

Sue, you are right on in so many regards. The current BB's have about as much connection to the teachings of WN as liberal judges have to the "founding fathers."

I was just about to comment on PaulMiletus's claim, "I believe the local church has not overlooked the spiritual causes of mental problems. If you can just give some time to read Brother Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man" you would know exactly where the local church stands on this matter." when I saw you did a better better job.

[KSA]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

I believe the local church has not overlooked the spiritual causes of mental problems. If you can just give some time to read Brother Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man" you would know exactly where the local church stands on this matter. As an example, I am posting the following excerpt:

In my original post I wanted to suggest that LC should pay more attention to "The Spiritual Man", but did not. I know Watchman Nee's teaching on this matter, but in LC nobody really stresses it, saying nothing about practicing it (with rare exceptions).

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by KSA

In my original post I wanted to suggest that LC should pay more attention to "The Spiritual Man", but did not. I know Watchman Nee's teaching on this matter, but in LC nobody really stresses it, saying nothing about practicing it (with rare exceptions).

As a testimony, for God's glory, I was privileged by the Lord Jesus to practice the teachings of Brother Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man" by uplifting the name of the LORD JESUS to heal the sick and cast out demons.

• A sister who was a kidney patient who have been pronounced by his physician to have only 6 months to live but still living today for more than 10 years.
• A man who have been disturbed or harrassed by demonic spirits have been freed in the name of the Lord Jesus and with his freedom lead him to receive the Lord Jesus.

There are many other incidents that prove the Word of God is true --

Philippians 2
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Mark 16
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

[KSA]

Glad to hear this, Paul. You are rare exception.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

I believe the local church has not overlooked the spiritual causes of mental problems. If you can just give some time to read Brother Watchman Nee's "The Spiritual Man" you would know exactly where the local church stands on this matter.

Paul,

The problem is not that the LC overlooks the spiritual problems that might cause mental illness. It is that when they are confronted with a mental problem that calling on the Lord, pray-reading, and going to more meetings does not fix, they wash their hands and essentially send them packing.

I observed this in the case of two sisters. I am very familiar with one and somewhat conversant in the other. In one case, the sister (who had a mental breakdown) was sent home and ultimately spent some time in a mental facility (now fully recovered and a leader among women in her church). The other was less clear, although I do know that she was essentially sent off to relatives because the problem resulted in outward behavior that could be potentially embarrassing. In effect, she was hidden away.

So the LC did observe mental problems beyond merely “spiritual” issues, but they had no answer but to send them away. They didn’t really believe that it was just spiritual and that their simplistic methods would fix them. They surely did not understand what was going on and how to help them. Since it had to be turned over to someone else, it would appear that they needed to hide their failure.

If at first you don’t succeed, destroy all evidence that you ever tried.

[aron]

Originally Posted by KSA

Tripartite man is one of the core teachings in LC. This teaching also had an immense influence on my Christian life. I have no doubt that there is a difference between our spirit and our soul. However, I think that in LC we had some unhealthy tendencies. For example, many there think that the things of the soul are negative and bad. Therefore a big stress on how bad are our opinions and soulish attachments. As a result, the cross was understood mainly as the denial of the soul. We were taught to get out of our mind and get into our spirit. There is much to discuss here.

KSA, I agree, and I commend to you the writings of Erasmus of Rotterdam, who in the 16th century was probably more widely read than Luther. Here is an exerpt from his "Handbook for the Christian Soldier". This is a translation from the original 1501 Latin version, English translation date is uncertain. Erasmus is explaining to the "soldier" who is endeavoring to "fight the good fight" what his "equipment" consists of, and the "terrain" on which he struggles.


Of three parts of man, the spirit, the soul, and the flesh.
Chap. vii.

These things afore written had been and that a great deal more than sufficient: Origene in his first book upon the epistle of Paul to the Romans maketh this division. nevertheless that thou mayst be somewhat more sensibly known unto thyself, I will rehearse compendiously the division of a man, after the description of Origene, for he followeth Paul making three parts, the spirit, the soul and the flesh, which three parts Paul joined together, writing to the Thessalonieences. That your spirit (saith he) your soul and your body may be kept clean and uncorrupt, that ye be not blamed or accused at the coming of our Lord Jesu Christ…

…To conclude therefore, the spirit maketh us gods, the flesh maketh us beasts: the soul maketh us men: the spirit maketh us religious, obedient to God, kind and merciful. The flesh maketh us despisers of God, disobedient to God, unkind and cruel. The soul maketh us indifferent, that is to say, neither good nor bad. The spirit desireth celestial things: the flesh desireth delicate and pleasant things: the soul desireth necessary things: the spirit carryeth us up to heaven: the flesh thrusteth us down to hell. To the soul nothing is imputed, that is to say, it doth neither good nor harm: whatsoever is carnal or springeth of the flesh that is filthy: whatsoever is spiritual proceeding of the spirit, that is pure, perfect and godly: whatsoever is natural and proceedeth of the soul, is a medium and indifferent thing, neither good nor bad. Wilt thou more plainly have the diversity of these three parts shewed unto thee as it were with a man’s finger? Certainly I will essay.


I included only the introduction, and a concluding paragraph; the body of the chapter, and the book, I leave hopefully for you to read. Erasmus puts the soul in the middle: sometimes it is tainted by the fears and lusts of the flesh, sometimes it senses and expresses the divine and eternal things. Please do not be put off by his use of "gods" and "beasts" in his description of men; he is being alliterative, poetic.

In theology, if I remember rightly, the LSM view is similar to Erasmus (i.e. the soul is "neutral" -- see "Man and the 2 Trees", for instance), so much so that I wonder if they cribbed him without attribution. In practice, the soul was denigrated too much, or ignored. "Turn to your spirit, brother!" The whole thing was simplified to the point of being ridiculous and even harmful to the weaker and damaged ones. And whom of us did not come into the local churches lugging a battered soul? Very few, I bet.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

Paul,

The problem is not that the LC overlooks the spiritual problems that might cause mental illness. It is that when they are confronted with a mental problem that calling on the Lord, pray-reading, and going to more meetings does not fix, they wash their hands and essentially send them packing.

So the LC did observe mental problems beyond merely “spiritual” issues, but they had no answer but to send them away. They didn’t really believe that it was just spiritual and that their simplistic methods would fix them. They surely did not understand what was going on and how to help them. Since it had to be turned over to someone else, it would appear that they needed to hide their failure.

OBW, this is a subject I'm very sensitive about so I hope I can express myself clearly.
1. In some cases of mental illness, it could be heriditary. Most brothers leading a locality wouldn't know about heriditary traits except their own.
2. Local church behaviors of spirit=good and soul=bad leads to bad teachings regarding the spirit/soul.
Behaviors in the local churches about the spirit and the soul could lead those susceptible to mental illness to suffer because of these informal teachings.
3. No longer in the local churches is calling on the Lord the cure-all for any problem, but the attitude remains it's not okay to have a soul-life.

Terry

[SpeakersCorner]

Aron,

Nice find on Eramus. I think he errs, though, by making the body synonymous with the flesh. The flesh is a post-fall phenomenon. In the pre-fallen condition, all three parts were fine and good ... very good, even (God breathed the spirit into the body and the living soul was produced).

In the fall, all three parts were sullied, not just the soul, not just the body, but also the spirit which was deadened. In Christ's redemption all three parts are brought back to a good state. The spirit is regenerated (that's good), the soul begins being transformed (that's very good), and the body is eventually transfigured (that's very, very good).

I think the LC went wrong by focusing too much on the negative aspect of the soul. The idea was that since the spirit was regenerated and life was there, the soul must turn to it rather than itself or worse, the body for its source and satisfaction. What does it mean to "turn to your spirit"? That is something the LC leadership never made clear and has caused a lot of grief.

The concept is actually good but it must be understood properly. To turn to one's spirit simply means to turn to the Lord. "Whenever the heart turns to the Lord ..." Every believer has some understanding of what this means. It simply means to contact the Lord, maybe by prayer, maybe by confession, maybe by musing on the Word, maybe by talking with another believer, maybe just by thinking about God. It means to stop listening to your stomach (or other bodily parts) and listen to the Lord's speaking in whatever way works for you.

It's a shame it became a mantra, a form of chastisement, and a slogan. Probably the worst thing you can tell a brother who is in the throes of some negative situation is to "turn to your spirit." Rather, we should be a form of that process by just fellowshipping with the brother.


SC

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I think the LC went wrong by focusing too much on the negative aspect of the soul. The idea was that since the spirit was regenerated and life was there, the soul must turn to it rather than itself or worse, the body for its source and satisfaction. What does it mean to "turn to your spirit"? That is something the LC leadership never made clear and has caused a lot of grief.

The concept is actually good but it must be understood properly. To turn to one's spirit simply means to turn to the Lord. "Whenever the heart turns to the Lord ..." Every believer has some understanding of what this means. It simply means to contact the Lord, maybe by prayer, maybe by confession, maybe by musing on the Word, maybe by talking with another believer, maybe just by thinking about God. It means to stop listening to your stomach (or other bodily parts) and listen to the Lord's speaking in whatever way works for you.

It's a shame it became a mantra, a form of chastisement, and a slogan. Probably the worst thing you can tell a brother who is in the throes of some negative situation is to "turn to your spirit." Rather, we should be a form of that process by just fellowshipping with the brother.

I believe the local church is clear what it meant to "turn to your spirit." Brother Witness Lee taught:

The reality of the resurrection is the pneumatic Christ who is the consummated Spirit. This consummated Spirit is in our spirit. Our spirit has become His dwelling place. Our spirit is the Holy of Holies for the Triune God as the consummated Spirit living within us. This is why we say, “Turn to your spirit.”

The Crystallization Study of Song of Songs

In order to know the church or see something of the church, we must be in the spirit. We can never see the church, the mystery of Christ, merely by using our small mind to consider and try to understand it. The more we do this, the more we will be confused. We should not trust in our mind, but we have to cooperate with God by retreating to our spirit. Many of us may have seen something of the church, but we have to see more in order to stay in the church. We should pray: “Lord, save me. Deliver me from my mind, emotion, and will. Help me to stay in my spirit.” Some may not have seen the church. If you have not seen the church, do not argue with others about this matter or try to understand it on your own. Simply turn to your spirit. You must realize that the deepest part of your being is your human spirit. Your spirit is the very spot where God can reveal things to you. If you turn to your spirit and remain there, the church can be revealed to you.

The Two Greatest Prayers of the Apostle Paul

The Spirit of Christ cannot be poured upon our old nature, our old man. Our flesh does not have the position to participate in this compound ointment. Whenever you lose your temper, you are in the flesh and cannot enjoy the Spirit of Christ. But whenever you turn to your spirit, immediately in your spirit you sense the anointing. You realize that you are being painted with the Spirit of Christ, for you are in the new creation, not in your old nature.

Life Study of Exodus

[Suannehill]

Bro Paul
After 30 plus years of LSM we all pretty much KNOW what WL meant by "turn to your spirit". We all have libraries of LSM materials(thank you Philip Lee). However, the use of that phrase became overused and meaningless. It became a way to never deal with difficult situations. It also became a way to get off the hook for bad behavior. It became a way to control people. It may not have started that way, but that is what it became.
The quickest way to keep people from reading your posts is to load them with WL and LSM quotes, we've heard it thousands of times and know it as well as you do.
Sister Sue

[Paul Miletus]

Thank you Sister Sue...

As we can recall the 12 sons of Jacob, Daniel went astray into a form of apostasy, but Gad by God's grace came to restore the situation. Then Asher follows which issues in sufficiency of the riches of Christ and Naphthali which signify resurrection in which are the riches of Christ. Prior to Daniel were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Zebulun and Issachar. Though these four older sons were sinners, God's grace fell upon them and thereby, Levi represented our priesthoods and Judah our kingships. The 12 sons of Jacob is about "us".

I will not argue with what you have written above. However, can we not give a chance for Gad to rise up and restore the situation for us to experience the significance of the other sons of Jacob, especially Joseph which signifies universal blessing; and Benjamin which signifies eternal dwelling?

The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

[aron]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Aron,

Nice find on Eramus. I think he errs, though, by making the body synonymous with the flesh. The flesh is a post-fall phenomenon. In the pre-fallen condition, all three parts were fine and good ... very good, even (God breathed the spirit into the body and the living soul was produced).

In the fall, all three parts were sullied, not just the soul, not just the body, but also the spirit which was deadened. In Christ's redemption all three parts are brought back to a good state. The spirit is regenerated (that's good), the soul begins being transformed (that's very good), and the body is eventually transfigured (that's very, very good).

Yes, I see your point. I think he may make that distinction as well in the rest of the text, I can't remember though.

Still, pretty good for 1501, 18 years before Luther 'recovered' justification by faith. Erasmus had a lot of light. I have been helped enormously by the writings of this brother. He is one of the many refutations found in christian history to the "one minister per age" theory offered by the LSM folks. Of all the hopeful ideas they've come up with, that is perhaps the most baseless piece of wishful thinking.

Still, they are brothers, and we must treat them as we would hope they would treat us, by engaging them with love, and meekly pointing out the errors in their thinking. We should base our hope on the Bible, and the clear testimony of the Spirit's move in the myriads who have come before us. The "minister of the age" idea has neither.

Sorry if I dragged the topic off course. However, I do believe that Erasmus can contribute to the "spirit, soul, and body" discourse, as he was one of the many ministers during his particular age.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Suannehill

Bro Paul
After 30 plus years of LSM we all pretty much KNOW what WL meant by "turn to your spirit". We all have libraries of LSM materials(thank you Philip Lee). However, the use of that phrase became overused and meaningless. It became a way to never deal with difficult situations. It also became a way to get off the hook for bad behavior. It became a way to control people. It may not have started that way, but that is what it became ... The quickest way to keep people from reading your posts is to load them with WL and LSM quotes, we've heard it thousands of times and know it as well as you do. Sister Sue

You tell him sister!

I say forget all the books, and get down to the "nuts and bolts." Let's discuss the real situation, not some hypothetical book theory long gone.

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

Thank you Sister Sue...

As we can recall the 12 sons of Jacob, Daniel went astray into a form of apostasy, but Gad by God's grace came to restore the situation. Then Asher follows which issues in sufficiency of the riches of Christ and Naphthali which signify resurrection in which are the riches of Christ. Prior to Daniel were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Zebulun and Issachar. Though these four older sons were sinners, God's grace fell upon them and thereby, Levi represented our priesthoods and Judah our kingships. The 12 sons of Jacob is about "us".

I will not argue with what you have written above. However, can we not give a chance for Gad to rise up and restore the situation for us to experience the significance of the other sons of Jacob, especially Joseph which signifies universal blessing; and Benjamin which signifies eternal dwelling?

The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

Bro Paul

If you are refering to the "blendeds". They show no signs of recovery...only same ol, same ol.

Each time I read of God's people rising up, there are people falling on their faces in prayer beforehand. In LSM I see only arrogance and boldness in the arrogance.

I begged those in Mansfield to fall on our faces in prayer and offered to be the first one down...guess what?...they only know how to follow the ministry!!!! No gut wrenching confession for them...no siree! Just stay in the ministry.

As long as those in LSM continue the defiant stance and locals follow them...they are not ready or able to repent and bring God's blessing and ministry to the earth.

As for me...
God heals the wounds but leaves the scar!

Sister Sue

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by Suannehill

As for me...
God heals the wounds but leaves the scar!

As for me, I believe the Lord Jesus does not leave any scar in us because we are now a new creation, the old has gone. I would like to move forward rather than to look back as to Lot's wife. By doing this, I believe, we will be completely healed and by the grace of our Lord Jesus there will be no scars, not even in our memory. Again, I believe, forgiveness is one of the keys to leave no scars in us.

Philippians 3
Pressing on Toward the Goal
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

As for me, I believe the Lord Jesus does not leave any scar in us because we are now a new creation, the old has gone.

PM, are you then negating both Sue and your own hymnal, which includes the line, "No wound, no scar, haven't traveled very far." Sounds like that line may be referring to you then.

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

As for me, I believe the Lord Jesus does not leave any scar in us because we are now a new creation, the old has gone. I would like to move forward rather than to look back as to Lot's wife. By doing this, I believe, we will be completely healed and by the grace of our Lord Jesus there will be no scars, not even in our memory. Again, I believe, forgiveness is one of the keys to leave no scars in us.

You have more scars than you know, because I'm doubting you are completely transformed.
This is not about forgiveness or looking back, it is about exposing the infection being injected by LSM.

IN FACT this very board is about moving forward and leaving behind the errors taught by Lee and blendeds.

Well, back to the topic I have pulled the thread away.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

As for me, I believe the Lord Jesus does not leave any scar in us because we are now a new creation, the old has gone. I would like to move forward rather than to look back as to Lot's wife. By doing this, I believe, we will be completely healed and by the grace of our Lord Jesus there will be no scars, not even in our memory. Again, I believe, forgiveness is one of the keys to leave no scars in us.

It is time that this devilish concept be buried!
This kind of teaching needs yet another new thread!

We don't need much encouragement to leave behind the sinful and worldy things (although the RELIGIOUS worldly things could get more focus in the Local Church, this is true.) Rather, the perversion of the story of Lot's wife and "pressing on" in Christ has justified all the damage to relationships with friends and family and brothers and sisters in Christ because this is how this teaching is most commonly applied in the Local Church.

The testimony of Scripture is that Christ bears His wounds in eternity and we are given to share in His suffereings with all joy.

Your religion's doctrine is in error and reveals its source in the absence of the real experiences of Christ.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

As for me, I believe the Lord Jesus does not leave any scar in us because we are now a new creation, the old has gone.

Maybe, maybe not. When the Lord appeared to the disciples He still had scars. He said, "See the wounds in my hands and feet. It is I."

Jesus was "wounded in the house of His friends" (Zechariah 13:6). They had asked Him, in the eternal resurrection, "What are these wounds in Your hands?"

He is, even in eternity, the "Lamb that was slain"

Look at a piece of jasper sometime. It is a 'scarred' stone, full of the marks of its creation. It is not a featureless crystal, a green emerald. No, it is full of 'personality'. The New Jerusalem shines like a jasper stone, no? The high wall is jasper.

This is not my doctrine, just some thoughts that I occasionally consider. Perhaps we do bear the marks of our perfecting. Who we are and what we pass through are aspects of the same story.

[SpeakersCorner]

There is a scene in "Jaws" in the bottom of the boat when the three men try to outdo one another with their scars. Each one has a story behind it. The scene, which begins comically, becomes highly charged with tension as Quint shows his leg scar and shares the tale of being on the U.S.S. Indianapolis when it delivered "the bomb." It is a highly dramatic moment in the film.

Scars are a record -- a wonderful, dramatic record -- of the dramatic experiences we have had in our lives. They are stories, told in tissue. Jesus' scars will never go away any more than the story of God putting on the flesh and dying for humanity will. Likewise, our scars of spiritual experience will never go away.

The scars many of us received from decades in an intense spiritual hothouse known as the "local churches" are glorious. Many have been shown on these pages with their accompanying stories. I treasure mine.

Paul, your attempt to deny these scars is an attempt to deny our rich, textured, human experience of walking with the Lord. You're wrong on this one, brother.


SC

[AndPeter]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Paul, your attempt to deny these scars is an attempt to deny our rich, textured, human experience of walking with the Lord. You're wrong on this one, brother.

SC

Reminds me of the limp that Jacob (Israel) had after his encounter with the Lord.

Steve

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

How do we understand our condition in eternity in the light of these verses?

"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Then He who sat on the throne said, 'Behold, I make all things new.'"

[OBW]

Originally Posted by djohnson

How do we understand our condition in eternity in the light of these verses?

"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Then He who sat on the throne said, 'Behold, I make all things new.'"

That's only for those who did not get the quick fix in the LC. Isn't that just speeeeeecial?

The rest of us will have to wait for the NJ.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by djohnson

How do we understand our condition in eternity in the light of these verses?

"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. Then He who sat on the throne said, 'Behold, I make all things new.'"

dj,

Lee's teaching, if I remember correctly, was that this verse applied to the nations in eternity, not those who were part of the New Jerusalem.

But whether that is so or not, this verse does not obliterate the memory of suffering which, according to our context here, is symbolized by the scar. Anyone who's done any restoration work on a house or car knows that often it's the restoration of the old that is made new. Antique aficianados aren't looking for new wooden parts, new layers of polyurethane, or new hinges and pulls. They're look for the old which, in their homes, has now become new.

When we are with the Lord in that age, we will cherish our memories of the struggle.


SC

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

SpeakersCorner I guess I'm wondering more about things like rape, incest, etc. Do you think those who were victims of these kind of horrific acts will have a memory of them in eternity?

[Suannehill]

My comment about God healing the wounds but leaving the scars originally touched me in a book by Watchman Nee. Forgive me that I did not record the title but only have the quote posted above my computer...

" When our outer man is smitten, dealt with, and humbled by all kinds of misfortune, the scars and wounds left behind will be the very places from which the Spirit flows out from within." WN

You see brother Paul, according to WN we do indeed have both wounds and scars.

My feeling is that God has healed my wounds (and there will be more) but the scars remain.

Sue

[aron]

Originally Posted by djohnson

SpeakersCorner I guess I'm wondering more about things like rape, incest, etc. Do you think those who were victims of these kind of horrific acts will have a memory of them in eternity?

Allow me to answer that experientially. I went through a lot of "stuff", some of it my doing, some of it others', and today I still have memory. But the tears are gone. The pain is gone. What I went through I went through. But the obsession, the compulsion, the fear, the shame, the rage, God has "wiped away".

In fact, I would say that in order to get into "that age", I need in "this age" to let go of the remnants of death. "Where, O death, is thy victory, where is thy sting?"

I need to be healed from the "sting" of death, which held me in its iron grip for so long. Only the eternal life can break the grip of death, which holds every living thing in its thrall.

Tears, death, sorrow, pain, these are temporary experiences. To be saved from them is eternal. But the "badge" of salvation may indeed remain. How can I have gratitude unless I have the memory of forgiveness?

[KSA]

As we see the throne of God and the Lamb in eternity, we should have memory of our sins for eternal appreciation of the achievements of the cross.

[SpeakersCorner]

The memories of our sins are the bitter herbs of the Passover lamb. They add flavor to the enjoyment of the redeeming lamb of God who took away the sins of the world.


SC

[Ohio]

SC, What a beautiful interpretation! Did you plagiarize that?

[SpeakersCorner]

Didn't plagiarize ... but I get your drift (tee-hee).

SC

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by Suannehill

My comment about God healing the wounds but leaving the scars originally touched me in a book by Watchman Nee. Forgive me that I did not record the title but only have the quote posted above my computer...

"When our outer man is smitten, dealt with, and humbled by all kinds of misfortune, the scars and wounds left behind will be the very places from which the Spirit flows out from within." WN

You see brother Paul, according to WN we do indeed have both wounds and scars.

My feeling is that God has healed my wounds (and there will be more) but the scars remain.

Sue

Many thanks for the quotation. This is an excerpt from Brother Watchman Nee's "The Breaking of the Outerman and the Release of the Spirit."

Wounds and scars are realities and I do not deny them. The Lord Jesus crucifixion are wounds for all of us. However, after the death of the Lord Jesus there is the resurrection and we are encouraged to pass through the crucifixion but must not stay at the cross of calvary. We need to experience the resurrection life also. We must go beyond the cross, which is the resurrection life which is the very goal of God for the Lord Jesus to become a life-giving Spirit that many sons will be produced to become God's corporate Body, the Body of Christ, which is the church.

In God's eyes, the church is holy, blameless and without wrinkles. I would venture to say also that the church must not have any scars. If this is correct, the church is composed of all the saints who were washed by the precious blood of Jesus in redemption and have been regenerated. We are all regenerated, and the Word says, the old has gone and the new has come. We were regenerated or born again and has obtained a new life, as well as partakers of the divine nature of God.

I believe Brother Watchman Nee was encouraging us to experience the cross because only the cross can break our outer man. Also, I believe that Brother Watchman Nee is admonishing us not to stay and focus with all the wounds and scars but to move forward, forgetting what was behind and pressing onward what the Lord Jesus has prepared for all of us. Perhaps, this is the very reason why Brother Watchman Nee stated in the same portion of the quotation referred by Sister Sue as follows:

May our outer man be broken to such an extent that the inner man can be released and expressed.

The keypoint in this excerpt is for the inner man to be released and expressed. This is God's goal for us to experience wounds and were evidenced by scars for our outer man be broken in order for the inner man to be released and expressed.

Grace be with you all. Amen.

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

The memories of our sins are the bitter herbs of the Passover lamb. They add flavor to the enjoyment of the redeeming lamb of God who took away the sins of the world.


SC

Jer 31:34
No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

[aron]

I am also reminded, when it comes to not remembering things, the verses in Matthew 7. "Lord, didn't we do this in Your Name? Didn't we do that in Your Name? Didn't we follow, even wallow in, Your Name?"

The Lord says, "I don't know you". This is different from sin. This is doing something apart from God. God won't recognize man, apart from the Man Christ Jesus. But people can presume to be doing something FOR God, even when it is not God doing it! This is Babylon. Notice the book of Revelation doesn't say, "Fallen, fallen, is Egypt the great!" No, it is well-intentioned people waving scriptures in the air that really miss the mark.

I suspect I am going to limp into the New Jerusalem, if & whenever I do. When I get there maybe my "thigh" will be restored and I will leap like a hart on the mountain tops. But one thing I definitely want to ERASE, for good, is the religious "I can do it" bent. It is a pernicious and ingrained hallmark of the well-intentioned but fallen man. I won't speak of anyone else. Maybe I'm the only one that particular shoe has fit. But I doubt it.

--Looking to men, not to God.
--Quarreling with others.
--I am better, superior (or it's hidden corollary, "That person is wrong/defective", etc).
--Trusting in rules, formulas, doctrines instead of the flowing, hidden, mysterious God.
--Creating outward things to assure ourselves we are on the right track (statues, stained glass windows, buildings, organizations).
--Measuring ourselves, as if we are something. "Last year we grew 5 percent". Measuring others and comparing ourselves, for better or worse.
--Wanting to be first. Wanting to be right.
--Trusting the dead letter, not the Living Spirit.
--Trying to put God in a cage. "The Spirit flows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it..." Ignoring that verse.

I think I could go on, but you probably get my gist. This is one area the Lord will not recognize. This is one thing I need to "forget", today and totally.

I suspect I will bear marks of my journey. This is how the Lord recognizes us. Peter was renamed "The Stone", Saul of Tarsus was renamed the "Little One", James and John became the "Sons of Thunder". These are friendly nicknames, aimed at the peculiarities that became transformed. We all have distinguishing marks that pass through the transforming journey. But one mark I don't believe God will recognize, but rather will cast out, is the mark of setting up something apart from God. This is Babylon.

"Christ" becomes "Christ and the church" becomes "the ministry". I don't say this to pick on Lee or the LSM folks, but it is a good example, to me, of what I want to avoid. That is one "mark" I don't want to carry forward. That surely will not pass through the gates into the city.

I hope I can say the above remarks without an imputed judgment on others; I am merely considering my journey thus far, and what lessons the Lord has been trying to teach me. Peace, and grace, to all who read this.

[KSA]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

Jer 31:34
No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

I thought that someone will bring up this verse. To say that God will know nothing about about our sins and obliterate them from His mind is ridiculous. Gos is omniscient - He knows everything! This verse simply means that God will not hold our sins against us.

[SpeakersCorner]

Furthermore, my original comment was concerning our memory of sin, not God's. That's the whole context of this thread.

SC

[Paul Miletus]

Originally Posted by KSA

I thought that someone will bring up this verse. To say that God will know nothing about about our sins and obliterate them from His mind is ridiculous. Gos is omniscient - He knows everything! This verse simply means that God will not hold our sins against us.

Perhaps, it will be better if we can find a Scripture from the Bible that tells us to remember our sins or the benefit of remembering our sins.

The book of Leviticus is a book full of blood because of the sacrificial offerings to cover the multitude of sins. This reminds me of the Altar of the Burnt Offering in the Outer Court of the Tent of Meeting which signifies the crucifixion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ. We all need to pass through the Altar of the Burnt Offerings, as well as the Laver. However, we must not stay forever in the Outer Court because God has arranged for us to go inside the sanctuary, in the Holy Place, and finally in the Most Holy Place to be in His Presence.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Paul Miletus

Perhaps, it will be better if we can find a Scripture from the Bible that tells us to remember our sins or the benefit of remembering our sins.

Unfortunately I am not the one to help you with your quest. My mind is the proverbial seive; I remember John 3:16 and little else. God loves us and sent His Son. Hooray!

But I do attempt to compensate for this shortcoming by remembering "themes", which I trust are connected to verses somewhere. I like in Hebrews it says (somewhere) that "it says somewhere", then the author quotes the OT. I like that; I relate.

So my theme for your consideration, is where the OT prophets say, repeatedly, to the Israelites, "Don't forget that God took you out of Egypt. Don't forget you were slaves, and He led you out with a high outstretched arm, across the wilderness full of scorpions and snakes. When you are there, in the land full of milk and honey, don't let your heart become fat and forget that once you were nothing, until I (Jehovah) rescued you."

I think the prophets repeatedly told the Israelites not to forget, in thier current state of ease, that once they were under the yoke, until God set them free. This is to keep them from falling away from thier dependence on God. They look around, like Nebuchanezzar did, at all thier finery and wealth and begin to admire themselves instead of the God who raised them up from nothing.

We all were sold into sin. We were slaves of the old nature. Fallen, apart from God, alienated, without hope. It would be unwise to forget this. I think the "type" in the OT of the Israelites forgetting the bondage in Egypt, and the consequences of thier hearts becoming fat and complacent, is a good reminder for us. "Don't forget". That's what the marker rocks were set up for, as a witness to an event that took place. That's what the solemn feasts were for. To remember. It is not so much the remembering of sins that is stressed, it is the remembrance of release from sins that is important. But to remember release we have to remember bondage.

Maybe why the Israelites got sent to "Babylon" was because they forgot the experience of "Egypt". They became complacent, and mostly they became self-indulgent. They trusted in themselves, instead of trusting in God.

"Some trust in horses, some trust in chariots, but I will remember the name of the LORD my God." It says that (somewhere) in the Psalms.