God's economy vs Deputy authority

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is the "working" definition for "Deputy authority"?

Obviously the NT talks about "authority". Ephesians talks about all authority was given unto Christ for the Church. The concept of head covering is related to authority and its practical application in the church life. Paul and Peter were both involved in counsels to hear their personal revelations before the church received the word. In Timothy it says that the Law is made for the lawless and disobedient, clearly the law has authority over the lawless and that would be administered by man. The entire concept of deputy authority was always taught with the analogy of a policeman and the uniform. 1Peter 5:5 exhorts the younger to submit to the elders. 1Pet 2:13 tells us to submit ourselves to every ordinance of man, not just laws but even things like "no shirt, no shoes, no service". Probably the most relevant verse would be 1Cor 16:16 where Paul tells us to submit ourselves to all those who are similar to Stephanas (who was addicted to the ministry of the saints) and all others who help Paul and labor with him.

So without knowing what the definition of "deputy authority" is that this person is referring to I would have no way to respond other than the premise that the concept of "deputy authority is not in the NT" is clearly not true based on a standard dictionary definition of the terms.

It was Roman Catholicism which first combined the elements of distorted oneness and Old Testament leadership. The result was a lineage of Popes bereft of godliness using twisted concepts of oneness to wield great power.

If the Apostle Paul had all of the "deputy authority" he was supposedly endued with, he would have been able to enact changes in Jerusalem. But he didn't and he couldn't.

The teachings of "deputy authority" have more roots in Chinese culture than in the Bible. How else could their dynasties exist for thousands of years? Like the Recovery, they have developed numerous teachings, as a system of error, which provide unlawful powers to its leaders.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was Roman Catholicism which first combined the elements of distorted oneness and Old Testament leadership. The result was a lineage of Popes bereft of godliness using twisted concepts of oneness to wield great power.

If the Apostle Paul had all of the "deputy authority" he was supposedly endued with, he would have been able to enact changes in Jerusalem. But he didn't and he couldn't.

The teachings of "deputy authority" have more roots in Chinese culture than in the Bible. How else could their dynasties exist for thousands of years? Like the Recovery, they have developed numerous teachings, as a system of error, which provide unlawful powers to its leaders.

How do you work out issues between saints? If there is no authority to go to it seems that it would be very difficult to deal with offenses. Paul rebuked the Corinthians for going to court asking isn’t there someone among you who could have judged? He then told them that the destiny of the saints is to judge the world. The only way a judge can be effective is as a representative of the higher authority, or as a “deputy authority”. Matt. 18 recommends a progression in trying to deal with an offense that ultimately ends up with you “telling the church”. In that context Jesus said “whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven”. That to me is the definition of the NT “deputy authority”.

This doesn’t mean that this authority rests with elders nor does it in any way suggest that there is a hierarchy in the church. Neither Paul or Jesus suggest that there is a hierarchy, only that there are reputable brothers that both of the parties could respect to judge according to righteousness. Also Jesus makes it very clear that He places a lot of faith in any two or three saints coming to together in His name and agreeing on anything. To me this demonstrates strongly that there is no hierarchy in this matter yet at the same time the church age is an age in which we are trained to exercise the Lord’s authority here on earth.

How about if there are problems with those who are taking the lead in the church? To me the authority is all about ownership. The "church of Christ" indicates that Christ has the ownership and therefore the authority to deal with the church. The "church of God" indicates that God also has the ownership and authority to deal with the church. Likewise the "church of the saints" indicates that the saints have the ownership, position and right to exercise authority over the church. There is no verse, however, that says the "church of the elders" or the "church of the apostles" etc. Having an equal standing to deal with issues also means we have an equal responsibility and equal accountability before the Lord. Basically, once you see sin or are aware of sin you are responsible to deal with it.

With that in mind, looking at how Paul recommends you choose an elder is very similar to how you would choose someone to judge between two saints. Obviously you want someone of good repute. If the problem is within a marriage I would much rather have a brother or sister that was married and had experience. If the problem was with the kids I would want someone who had done a good job raising kids to talk to. Although an elder may have been chosen as someone most saints would respect in most cases to judge between them, there is no rule that you would have to choose an elder to judge.

How about the example of the sons of Sceva. "Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you" demonstrates that this authority is all about our relationship with the Lord. Compare this account with the Lord's word in Matthew "depart from me workers of iniquity for I never knew you". My understanding is that whatever we do in the Christian walk is based on our relationship with the Lord. We are not exercising our authority, we are one with Him, and we are exercising His authority, that is the meaning of "head covering". If we are speaking according to our own opinion our head is not covered, if our speaking comes out of our fellowship with the Lord or with the teaching of the Apostles then our head is covered.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How do you work out issues between saints? If there is no authority to go to it seems that it would be very difficult to deal with offenses. Paul rebuked the Corinthians for going to court asking isn’t there someone among you who could have judged? He then told them that the destiny of the saints is to judge the world. The only way a judge can be effective is as a representative of the higher authority, or as a “deputy authority”. Matt. 18 recommends a progression in trying to deal with an offense that ultimately ends up with you “telling the church”. In that context Jesus said “whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven”. That to me is the definition of the NT “deputy authority”.

There definitely is authority in the church, and the saints are commanded to obey and submit to them. (H.13.17) If we look at the New Testament as a whole, the weight of scripture speaks to the abuses of leaders and not to the submission of the saints. The scripture is balanced knowing man's lust for power.

Never does the N.T. point to some solitary and distinct individual, other than Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, the Lord Himself, as some designated deputy authority, neither as a chief spokesman, a designated oracle, a Minister of the Age, nor one unique individual invested with power, as some "acting God."

Some may think that Peter or Paul were such persons, but they definitely were not, and that's why the failures of each, more so than any other of the early apostles, were so well known and broadcasted to the church.

It is only a collection of people, removed from scripture by the twisted teachings of a ruling body, who would buy into the distorted concepts of a "deputy authority." Unfortunately, I have spent my entire life, first under Rome, and then under Cleveland and Anaheim, swallowing this "doctrine of demons."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There definitely is authority in the church, and the saints are commanded to obey and submit to them. (H.13.17) If we look at the New Testament as a whole, the weight of scripture speaks to the abuses of leaders and not to the submission of the saints. The scripture is balanced knowing man's lust for power.

Never does the N.T. point to some solitary and distinct individual, other than Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, the Lord Himself, as some designated deputy authority, neither as a chief spokesman, a designated oracle, a Minister of the Age, nor one unique individual invested with power, as some "acting God."

And this, to me, is what this age is all about. Learning to hear the voice of the Lord Jesus and respond accordingly. How do you respond when they quarantine TC? How do you respond when they threaten to quarantine you? How do you respond when you learn JI has left the LC?

Do you say "the elders should deal with this?" or do you stand up and speak? If you stand up, do you speak in your flesh?

Suppose you do speak up, suppose you don't bend when they threaten to excommunicate you, suppose you are bold and don't walk in your flesh. Well then they will lay traps, how do you respond to the traps? Does this cause you to turn more to your spirit and prayer? If so the response will be to intensify the attacks and even see expressed hatred.

Even if you are not "officially" quarantined you will still be "isolated". How do you deal with that? Does that cause the fellowship with the Lord to get deeper? Because after all that is what this age is all about.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Even if you are not "officially" quarantined you will still be "isolated". How do you deal with that? Does that cause the fellowship with the Lord to get deeper?

If a brother at the church I meet with is an example, you go to seminary and become trained in pastoral work. As the Recovery has been a parallel, even if the Exclusive Brethren did not quarantine this brother, he was isolated, but not isolated from the Body of Christ. As this church is an example, he was received.
So yes, I do believe for many who have been involuntarily isolated, their fellowship with the Lord does get deeper.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

And this, to me, is what this age is all about. Learning to hear the voice of the Lord Jesus and respond accordingly. How do you respond when they quarantine TC? How do you respond when they threaten to quarantine you? How do you respond when you learn JI has left the LC?

Do you say "the elders should deal with this?" or do you stand up and speak? If you stand up, do you speak in your flesh?

Suppose you do speak up, suppose you don't bend when they threaten to excommunicate you, suppose you are bold and don't walk in your flesh. Well then they will lay traps, how do you respond to the traps? Does this cause you to turn more to your spirit and prayer? If so the response will be to intensify the attacks and even see expressed hatred.

Even if you are not "officially" quarantined you will still be "isolated". How do you deal with that? Does that cause the fellowship with the Lord to get deeper? Because after all that is what this age is all about.

And if I have to cite the primary sickness in the Recovery, it would be not honoring the Lord and upholding Him as the Head, and instead following a man. How many times have we seen LC leaders acting as man-pleasers and not followers of Jesus Christ? How often did I hear that "every one says they follow Jesus," but the true test is whether we can follow the brothers, and be one with them?

The recent quarantine exposed this all too well. Both sides claimed they were "fighting for the truth," when actually they were just picking sides, and siding with man. Who really stood for the Lord?

During the chaos of events leading up to the quarantine, I posted how I pleaded with the leading brothers to care only for the church. I was serving under 3 elders who were all employees of Cleveland. I noted the tremendous conflict of interest that surfaced because of that. The new leader sent by TC took strong offense to my pleas and demanded that I apologize for saying this in front of others.

These brothers were absolutely convinced that the church must side with TC to reject LSM and the quarantine. They never considered the needs and wants of the many saints, and hence, half of them finally decided to get up and leave. No one spoke up because it would be just a waste of time. It was one sister from another place who said it all, "this is just a fight between ministries, and it should not involve the church." We needed more like her.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And if I have to cite the primary sickness in the Recovery, it would be not honoring the Lord and upholding Him as the Head, and instead following a man. How many times have we seen LC leaders acting as man-pleasers and not followers of Jesus Christ? How often did I hear that "every one says they follow Jesus," but the true test is whether we can follow the brothers, and be one with them?

It goes to the teaching of deputy authority and delegated authority which ties brothers to be man-honoring.
By contrast a brother or sister can have spiritual authority, but not considered to be a deputy authority or delegated authority.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Terry

It goes to the teaching of deputy authority and delegated authority which ties brothers to be man-honoring.
By contrast a brother or sister can have spiritual authority, but not considered to be a deputy authority or delegated authority.

The sister first showed me the article in a booklet, which John So had published after he had read the article from her. He added a paragraph to it, published it, and he and others then distributed it, I assume. The turmoil was sky high at that time.

The following lnk is critical in defining the line that was crossed that purportedly "caused division" in the Local Churches. Actually, the article on deputy authority sets up the substantial matter that caused division.

http://www.twoturmoils.com/ProofofDivision.pdf


Andrew Yu exemplifies the drastic measures taken by leaders in their application of the meaning of deputy authority

http://www.twoturmoils.com/BlindLoya...yAuthority.pdf

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And if I have to cite the primary sickness in the Recovery, it would be not honoring the Lord and upholding Him as the Head, and instead following a man. How many times have we seen LC leaders acting as man-pleasers and not followers of Jesus Christ? How often did I hear that "every one says they follow Jesus," but the true test is whether we can follow the brothers, and be one with them?

The recent quarantine exposed this all too well. Both sides claimed they were "fighting for the truth," when actually they were just picking sides, and siding with man. Who really stood for the Lord?

The Lord said the way that leads to life is narrow and few there be that find it. When I read Heb 11 I don't get the impression that those listed represented the "majority" of God's people. If faith, hope and love were common then they wouldn't be precious. One of the criteria in deciding that a stone is a "precious" stone is that it is rare. If this was an easy path to take then where would the glory be? To be a follower of Jesus is a high calling that leads from glory to glory. Didn't Paul say that "all had forsaken him"? Wasn't that similar to the Lord's experience at the crucifixion? I don't really see how the genuine experience of Christ would be any different.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How about if there are problems with those who are taking the lead in the church? To me the authority is all about ownership. The "church of Christ" indicates that Christ has the ownership and therefore the authority to deal with the church. The "church of God" indicates that God also has the ownership and authority to deal with the church. Likewise the "church of the saints" indicates that the saints have the ownership, position and right to exercise authority over the church. There is no verse, however, that says the "church of the elders" or the "church of the apostles" etc. Having an equal standing to deal with issues also means we have an equal responsibility and equal accountability before the Lord. Basically, once you see sin or are aware of sin you are responsible to deal with it.

Generally in practice the attitude of elders is there is no democracy in the locality. Decision making begin and stop with them.
If you're an offended brother who is figuratively used as boxing bag by an elder or elders, you're the one who must apologize, repent, and get right with the brothers for the manner they have responded to you. All accountability lies with the offended one, not with the brothers.