LSM’s Contradictary Rapture Teaching

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

OMW....you are perpetuating error by stating Darby listened to the utterance>>>Wm Kelley and others have addressed this myth with great specificity at www.stempublishing.com they also address other historical references that pre-date Darby as the originator of the rapture. Even Matthew Henry used the term.

You make a claim with no clear evidence. It may be that Darby had some of his thinking in place before that, but a general reference to a web site that simply publishes virtually everything Darby (along with many others) wrote does not make any case. Might as well say that one of them provided the theory of relativity and say that it is in there somewhere. It might be. And it might not be. None of us are going to go through that much stuff to find it. Be specific. State the precise document. Or better yet, make the link to the precise document.

And a reasonable perusal of the multitude of documents under the name of W Kelly (Kelley??) did not reveal anything on point.

But the real point is prior to Darby, where are the references to a pre-tribulation rapture? I find three minor references and you mention one other (Matthew Henry) which again is too unspecific to find.

The three I find are to 1) a Puritan minister and his son, Increase and Cotton Mather, some time in the 1600s, 2) Morgan Edwards in 1788, and 3) Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812.

But almost all literature indicates that a pre-tribulation "rapture" was essentially not part of any regular theology prior to its popularization by Darby.

And these others may have made references to such a thing in one way or another. Were any of them sound enough to gather support outside of their sphere of influence?

And did such a way of thinking exist prior to any of these? There is stated a presumption that there was, but it is not evidenced in the writings, including scripture.

So the question remains. How "old" is rapture theology as we know it today.

[OBW]

BTW. Sir Isaac Newton predicted that the apocalypse, based on his reading of the various relevant passages, could not be before 2060.

And looking at this, it is relevant that Lee's attempts to date the return of Christ are simply more evidence that his whole "position" as a serious minister of scripture is suspect. Someone said a couple of years back that Lee expected it to be on a certain date in either 1995 or 1996 (can't remember which). While we may no longer be under a rule to stone false prophets, what does it say about the man?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

And looking at this, it is relevant that Lee's attempts to date the return of Christ are simply more evidence that his whole "position" as a serious minister of scripture is suspect. Someone said a couple of years back that he expected it to be on a certain date in either 1995 or 1996 (can't remember which). While we may no longer be under a rule to stone false prophets, what does it say about the man?

It says that he thought of himself and his ministry much higher than he should have. Consequently he, and far too frequently, stepped outside the normal boundaries of ministry leadership and Bible exposition.

[Guest2]

honestly,

this just makes me want to hurl.. especially the latter parts about overcomers

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Leomon

honestly,

this just makes me want to hurl.. especially the latter parts about overcomers

Interesting statement. You don't actually take a position. Which parts make you want to hurl? The ones where Lee says what he does about the rapture and overcomers? Or the parts where Nigel says he is wrong to say those things?

I have no idea what you said. Other than that you want to hurl. Over what? Care to elucidate?

[Guest2]

That was my gut reaction..

"Don’t all genuine Christians (regardless of denomination) form the Bride? Not so says W. Lee,141 “Some may say that the work of preparing the Bride is among the spiritual ones in Catholicism, the denominations, and the independent groups …However, this is not the Lord’s way.” “This preparation, I believe, involves the work of building corporately. Those who make up the Bride must…be built together as the one Bride. Therefore, I firmly believe that the Lord is preparing His Bride among those in His recovery.’ He states,142 “The primary work of the Lord in His recovery…is to prepare His Bride.” What about Christians meeting elsewhere? W. Lee is dogmatic, alleging,143 “There is no possibility for the Lord to prepare His bride in Catholicism, the state churches, or the denominations.” Moreover,144 “No overcomer should stay in today’s Christianity. Apostate Christianity is not the bride; it is the harlot, either the mother harlot or the daughter harlots.” Thus Witness Lee dismisses and denigrates all Christian congregations apart from his “Recovery.” They won’t be Christ’s Bride."

I come from a denominational church and it hurts to hear this. To see such a gap.

So all my pastors, christian friends and devote christians. Those who have sacrificed their life in serving the lord will not be "overcomers" due to the fact that their in a denominational church?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Leomon

Anyways enough of my ranting

Thanks for clearing it up. I know what not to put on your plate now.

Originally Posted by Guest2

That was my gut reaction..

"Don’t all genuine Christians (regardless of denomination) form the Bride? Not so says W. Lee,141 “Some may say that the work of preparing the Bride is among the spiritual ones in Catholicism, the denominations, and the independent groups …However, this is not the Lord’s way.” “This preparation, I believe, involves the work of building corporately. Those who make up the Bride must…be built together as the one Bride. Therefore, I firmly believe that the Lord is preparing His Bride among those in His recovery.’ He states,142 “The primary work of the Lord in His recovery…is to prepare His Bride.” What about Christians meeting elsewhere? W. Lee is dogmatic, alleging,143 “There is no possibility for the Lord to prepare His bride in Catholicism, the state churches, or the denominations.” Moreover,144 “No overcomer should stay in today’s Christianity. Apostate Christianity is not the bride; it is the harlot, either the mother harlot or the daughter harlots.” Thus Witness Lee dismisses and denigrates all Christian congregations apart from his “Recovery.” They won’t be Christ’s Bride."

I come from a denominational church and it hurts to hear this. To see such a gap.

So all my pastors, christian friends and devote christians. Those who have sacrificed their life in serving the lord will not be "overcomers" due to the fact that their in a denominational church?

Have you considered the fact that the LSM churches, though they deny being a denomination, are to every intent and purpose, in fact, a denomination themselves? They claim their local churches don't have names, but every one of them, at least in the U.S., is incorporated under a name, albeit for tax purposes, with their respective state governments. And besides, just being called the 'Church in (blankety blank)' doesn't mean that that title isn't a name in and of itself...

...just some thoughts that I've had...