Christ Versus Religion 50 Years Later!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

But Christianity is religion. Not just a religion.

So the fight is really against hypocrisy. Against veiling evil and unrighteousness with the cloak of religion. Against wielding the book of the God of love as if it is a battle axe.

Having the Recovery as our backdrop, I don't think we can stress this point enough.

The Lord Jesus did not condemn the entire Jewish religion when He ministered on earth. What Jesus did condemn was the hypocrisy of their leaders. Numerous cases exist throughout the gospels, where He upheld the Jewish religion, and even honored it. The Lord's rebukes to the Jewish leaders centered on their hypocrisy, including their traditions which made His commandments void.

WL's book Christ vs. Religion confused this issue, creating a much larger "enemy" in the name of religion, than merely the hypocrisy condemned by the Lord. By transposing the words "hypocrisy" and "religion," WL successfully included all believers. All Christians were thus categorized with the hypocrites. The book of James uses this word "religion," which is another reason why James is so discredited in the LRC. I believe many LC'ers have been damaged by this confusion. So much so, that the LSM has a history of condoning their own hypocrisy, all the while condemning all other Christian churches, denominations, free gatherings, and ministries.

How totally self-serving their condemnation on religion has become.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Lord Jesus did not condemn the entire Jewish religion when He ministered on earth. What Jesus did condemn was the hypocrisy of their leaders. Numerous cases exist throughout the gospels, where He upheld the Jewish religion, and even honored it. The Lord's rebukes to the Jewish leaders centered on their hypocrisy, including their traditions which made His commandments void.

Excellent! Just was I was thinking but you beat me to the punch. Remember the Lord Jesus did refer to the temple as "My Father's House", therefore there was still something genuine left of that dusty old religion of the Jews after all. He also went into the temple to teach in many of the cities he visited, so maybe he wasn't quite as "versus" religion as we have been led to believe. Maybe if he would come back today he would go into one of those fancy dancy megachurches and turn over the tables that sell those self help books and religious trinkets.....just thinkin out loud here...

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Having the Recovery as our backdrop, I don't think we can stress this point enough.

The Lord Jesus did not condemn the entire Jewish religion when He ministered on earth. What Jesus did condemn was the hypocrisy of their leaders. Numerous cases exist throughout the gospels, where He upheld the Jewish religion, and even honored it. The Lord's rebukes to the Jewish leaders centered on their hypocrisy, including their traditions which made His commandments void.

WL's book Christ vs. Religion confused this issue, creating a much larger "enemy" in the name of religion, than merely the hypocrisy condemned by the Lord. By transposing the words "hypocrisy" and "religion," WL successfully included all believers. All Christians were thus categorized with the hypocrites. The book of James uses this word "religion," which is another reason why James is so discredited in the LRC. I believe many LC'ers have been damaged by this confusion. So much so, that the LSM has a history of condoning their own hypocrisy, all the while condemning all other Christian churches, denominations, free gatherings, and ministries.

How totally self-serving their condemnation on religion has become.

Although your point is well-taken, again I say it's not just about hypocrisy, it's also about simply being deceived by a false substitute of genuine service of God.

Again, the validity of the subject depends one which definition of religion one is using. Let's not make this a semantic argument about what "religion" really means and whether the word is okay to use. The question is what is the essence of the boy's point, and though hypocrisy is part of the equation, it is not all of it. The rest of it simply having a mistaken assumption of what kind of service pleases God.

I'm not advocating condemning "entire religions" or a scorched earth policy against "religion." But the fact is people who pray rosary beads with the idea that the sheer number of beads prayed makes a difference to God are deceived, but their problem isn't hypocrisy. It may just be misplaced sincerity.

Lastly, let me comment on your statement:

"I believe many LC'ers have been damaged by this confusion."

Let's be honest, LCers have been damaged by a lot of things. So take your pick. But the problem often isn't the essential information being given, the problem is LCers are never allowed to process the information they are given and to put it into perspective. So the result is they end up getting damaged because they don't know the basic skills of gaining understanding on their own. They just let their teachers tell them what to think and, whether it makes sense or not to them, they run with it, often trampling anyone who has the misfortune to be in their way, including each other.

Mindlessness + lots of information = disaster

Mindlessness + lots of information + zeal = total disaster

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

by this confusion." Let's be honest, LCers have been damaged by a lot of things. So take your pick. But the problem often isn't the essential information being given, the problem is LCers are never allowed to process the information they are given and to put it into perspective. So the result is they end up getting damaged because they don't know the basic skills of gaining understanding on their own. They just let their teachers tell them what to think and, whether it makes sense or not to them, they run with it, often trampling anyone who has the misfortune to be in their way, including each other.

I'm not buying this. It diverts us from the topic at hand, and sends us down a road that doesn't match the facts. Many LC'ers are the brightest folks I have ever met, full of knowledge and insight into human life. I believe that most did have "the basic skills of gaining understanding on their own," but excessively trusted their leaders for other reasons. But I'll leave this to another thread.

I agree with your point about the dangers of "simply being deceived by a false substitute of genuine service of God." Nicodemus was one such example of this. He was deceived by a false "religion" of service to God. The Lord did not rebuke him, however, neither did the Lord treat him harshly. Instead, the Lord educated Him, and "made him wise unto salvation." The Lord showed him a better way, the way of faith which brought the new birth.

Our topic here is centered on the word "versus." What is Christ "versus?" Is He versus religion? I'm not so sure anymore. Is He versus a false substitute? Perhaps, because they cheat His people. Is He versus hypocrisy? Definitely, His word tells us that repeatedly.

Maybe I'm seeing things in black and white.

[OBW]

I knew that mentioning the whole "what is the definition of religion" thing would not just slip by entirely. But as I listened to it, I recall that by the end, even having heard the beginning, that bad taste was still there. There is something problematic about the kind of even unintentional equivocation that occurs in the mind of the listener.

And then, as I read some of the more recent posts, this stuck out to me.

Originally Posted by Igzy

. . . it's also about simply being deceived by a false substitute of genuine service of God.

And my question then is "what is genuine service to God"? Is it:

• Some subset of our human activities?
• Things done in time of worship, during prayer/study of the word, during "fellowship," and when specifically doing "justice"?
• Anything that a Christian does that is not inconsistent with God's righteousness and not done for base reasons (which would be inconsistent with God's righteousness)?

What goes through our minds when we say "genuine service to God"?