What is a Glorious Church life?

[OBW]

Hope,

I’ve been considering your assessments of James B and of the words written in the BARM by his sons, more particularly Brent. While I seemed to see some uncertainty in how you wanted to consider Brent’s posts, I was reminded of something I read on the BARM that few would have seen.

Outside of the Nee/Lee/LC forum are many others, including one that has a place where people simply drop in quotes that they consider noteworthy. I’ve looked at it a couple of times, and the first time, I saw a comment back by one person to another concerning the person he always quoted, J.P. Rizal. It turns out that Rizal is sort of a folk hero and philosopher of the Philippines, so I looked back at a few of the quotes attributed to him with interest. One caught my eye.

In this one quote (rather lengthy), Rizal said, in short, that the study of truth is like students seated around a statue drawing what they see. Those in the front see best, those behind less so. Behind them are those who must rely on the drawings of others. He suggested that no one could question another’s view because that was what he saw. The problem is in the notion that just because that is what I see does not mean I have seen it all, only that I have seen part very clearly. It may be true that my view is not complete and in that sense is incorrect, but when looking at that small part, it is what I see. Although out of context, it is real.

Then what is correct? When the discussion is “truth,” we seldom consider that only part of the truth is really the truth. It may be true, but it potentially paints an untrue picture. It is only in context with the whole that truth is seen in the pieces of what is true.

My addition to Rizal’s comments would be that the seeker of truth would be one who wants to see more than they already have seen. He would not be frozen to his singular perspective, but desiring to learn the rest of the picture.

I would not say that I have the best view of the LC. I’m not even sure what I think about it at times. Sometimes I think it is the most corrupt thing that ever existed and should be torn down. A minute later I think that merely exposing the corruption of the leadership coupled with some backing away from certain excessively sectarian teachings leaves a decent and vibrant Christian group. But despite some of my harsher rhetoric, I do not pretend to have all the answers or think that the LC is simply a corrupt thing that should be destroyed.

So how do we view the observations of Brent B? I would say that we accept his view as what it is. He grew up in one of the original LC households in the US. He saw the effects of what his dad’s involvement in the “ministry” did to their home life. It may not be the whole story, but I doubt that even he knows the whole story. His words are quite charged. After the childhood he had, what do we expect?

I’m not blaming James, but he may be partly to blame. I’m not saying that what Brent saw was typical. But it was something that flowed out from the ministry in some form.

When looking at the statue that is the LC, Brent B had a front row seat to view a certain portion. It may have been extreme, even for many who think there are extreme problems in the LC. It is obvious that it created a tremendous resentment that flowed out in his posts. But despite his over the top rhetoric, I doubt that he said anything that was not right there on the statue. Few others had that view. We may not like the way he said it. We may think that his manner of speech overstated things. But it is what he saw.

Can we refute it? Probably not. Is it the whole truth? Clearly not. Should we put it into the mosaic of the full description of what the LC was, or at least became? Definitely so. To pass any of it off because of the demeanor of his posts is to fall for one of the common fallacies — shooting the messenger, or ad hominem attack.

[Hope]

Hi Mike,

Very good point. I have learned a lot from the forum because of the different views. The Barber boys point of view says a lot about not only the LC but about James and Virginia and their home life. I would not say they had a front row seat but rather a front row seat to James Barber. I am sorry they suffered but their problems are much more their own family's deal than the lc. But I do agree that we can learn a lot about the lc and the James Barber version from them. One thing for sure - James was a very peculiar person and his position and the LC pattern of exalting leaders aka deputy authority caused a lot of abnormal development. Same can be said about many of the leaders, such as Ray Graver, Patsy Freeman etc. Most of the extreme problems are associated with a few personalities. Particular personalities gaining dominance combined with the deputy authority thing caused too much hurt.

The hardest part of the lc experience for me was my interactions with the big time leaders. On the other hand, being with the regular brothers and sisters was a great joy. My children loved the single brothers who lived with us at various times. My grown adult sons have very fond memories of the church in Dallas and the single brothers with whom they interacted. We have a wonderful relationship with our children and not one has anything bad to say about the church in Dallas. Several times they have been with us when some of the old timers were together and started hashing out the problems. They have scolded me many times for dwelling on the negatives when there were so many good things. They loved the gospel meetings, Jr. High and High School conferences, baby sitting with their best friends, brothers who lived with us, and the out of town saints who took hospitality during conferences.

We currently have great fellowship within the family. They would go back to the church life they knew in Dallas in a New York minute. How come the difference from the Barber clan? Well for one thing I kept my kids away from anything that came out of Anaheim. I shielded them from the Paul Hon messes. When we coordinated with various brothers in the area regarding a junior high type conference, I insisted the others helping would not put any negatives or phony expectations on the kids. I was pretty rough on the Irving brothers about some of their negative assessments and cursing of the kids. Nope, we were not going to have it. They appreciated it and got some help.

OK City was the source of plenty of slander. I got my share and even my children were slandered. When my boys heard of things being said about them, they were very upset. It was way off, not true and a shame. I stayed cool on the outside for their sake but realized there was a bad source in OK City.

Because I selectively received James' fellowship and a few times to his face told him I did not agree with some proposal, he boasted to other elders that he was going to stop Don Rutledge. I was not worthy of being stopped but his style of oppression and control was not coming to Dallas. My major regret is that I was so dull and lacking the so called djohnson "gravitas" that I did not stand up to Benson and to most of the foolish stuff from Anaheim and thus, dear brothers and sisters were hurt. My bad, my bad.

Mike, going forward as I tell the story you will read about the wonderful saints in the lc, saints like you and your beautiful family. They were everywhere and the Lord was so wonderful. Yes, His name is Wonderful. I will write about the serious problematic teachings, and the inside view of the leadership. That is the perspective I hope I can bring that many have not had. Pray for me that I can complete the task and will do all unto Christ. My desire is that the brothers and sisters can go on without the problems acquired from the past but can build on the wonderful things that were there.

Thankful Jane and others have wondered about my position. She and I also believe you have a kind of multiple choice question. Is it that the bad leaders messed things up but the basic direction was good? Is it all bad? etc. Well, it is what it is. Let us forget trying to pigeon hole us former members. The people are the main thing. Christ is the answer for all of us. We have a bright future and destiny. We need to be restored in many ways and need to have our discernment sharpened.

Finally Mike, (boy did I get carried away, I need to get back to work!!) I do not swallow anything just because someone declares their view of the statue has some validity. Get enough skewed opinions together and who knows what might pop out. But let us all keep describing our angle and be willing to consider the view of others.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[OBW]

Hope,

It is just that multifaceted. Thanks for the input. I will say that while I now do not consider the time in Dallas to have been perfect by any stretch, I can clearly see that I had two views of that statue — one in Dallas and one in Irving. I probably let the latter bleed over onto my remembrance of the former.

In any case, I have become more and more amazed that you survived the system as long as you did given the openly contrary things you had to deal with from such an early time to which most of the rest of us were completely ignorant.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

PS Nell and I have corresponded regarding the baseball player Josh Hamilton. What a testimony of hope he is to all of America!!! Too many have been broken and crushed by drugs and alcohol and have given up all hope. Hamilton is living walking proof of the miraculous saving power of Jesus Christ. I have heard from some of the drugged damaged ones we minister to that the Hamilton story has given them hope and we are seeing marvelous fruits of repentance and new beginnings which are nothing but a glory to God.

Thanks for sharing this. I heard of his turnaround on ESPN, but they never mentioned "the miraculous saving power of Jesus Christ."

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for sharing this. I heard of his turnaround on ESPN, but they never mentioned "the miraculous saving power of Jesus Christ."

A comment I missed, which Hope shared with me, during the broadcast of the "Home Run Derby". A commentator stated, regarding Josh Hamilton, "it's been a bad day for athiests." I love that!

Nell

[Hope]

Dear Thankful Jane,

I appreciate your post and your anger. The upcoming chapter will contrast the wonderful joy and fellowship we had amongst ourselves, that is the regular brothers and sisters along with good Bible teachings and great times of churches coming together with the back room manuevering. The greatest shock of my christian life came in January, 1974. My first national "urgent elders-co/workers" meeting called by WL.

I must lay out how very very positive my overall experience up until then had been and then came the step off the cliff. I will discuss the ugly power play going on right before my eyes and the totally unscriptural and anti-LC practice as we had known it up until then. After the 8:30 am - 12:30 first session, we broke for lunch. I could not eat but went for a four hour walk to pray and clear my mind. I could not return to the after lunch meeting. During that walk, I was very seriously considering to drop out and praying desperately what to do. I returned to the meeting hall and explained to a few of my closest brothers what was going on with me. George and a few others such as Don Looper calmed me down and I began to successfully "get out of my mind" and "be open."

I am encouraged that you have been able to minister to the Barber family. That whole case is so sad. May the Lord grant them a full recovery to health in everyway. They were surely victims of the LCS and of their father's care for it.

By the way, I was wondering where you have been. I am at work and must go but I did read your post on a break and felt to respond. Glad you are back.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Peter I don't know why but the posts I think you are referring to were moved to: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=227

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Hope

By the way, I was wondering where you have been. I am at work and must go but I did read your post on a break and felt to respond. Glad you are back.

Thanks, Don. The sad truth about where I have been is that I have been involved with another situation (from LC damage) trying to help. I've also been doing some writing related to that. I also have a difficult situation in my extended family in process. The forum is taking a back burner for a while. I am trying to keep up with reading, but that is hard because I always want to respond.

Here's one more thought I have about all our mixed (love it/hate it)experience in the LC. It's kind of like Mommie Dearest. The adopted daughter of Ms. Crawford loved her mommie and wanted nothing more than to please her. Her mommie unfortunately also loved herself and wanted nothing more than her daughter to please her. This is the true story of a young child's growth to maturity as a human being and her journey of facing the truth of the parental abuse she had experienced under a sick self-centered mother. The daughter never knew when her mother's trigger would fire and horrible, irrational abuse would begin. No matter how she was treated, she always had to smile and call her mother, "Mommie Dearest." It is a heartbreaking story that she finally told as an adult, shocking all who heard it, I'm sure. I saw the movie. I assume there was a book.

I have heard and believe that the only way for abusive situations to end is for all secrecy to end. Secrecy is the lifeblood of dysfunctional situations. As long as everyone buys into the secrecy mode, abuse continues. No one wants ugly secrets to be told about their family for obvious reasons. In many ways we are all like those from an abusive family, only I think it is worse because it was God's family. It shouldn't have been this way, but it was.

I can only imagine what it must be like for you to tell these backroom things. It can't be easy to talk about a picture of which you were a part. It is humbling and exposing for all of us to see how susceptible we were/are to being deceived. I was totally there, a man-pleaser deluxe until God let me get smacked pretty hard. I didn't want to know the truth about my church family and leaders I loved. I didn't want to know that the depths of Satan could be found among God's people, but I had to know the truth for God to be able to set me free. Mostly I had to know the truth about myself and my deceitfully wicked heart.

I'm kind of up to here in this kind of thing right now, so sorry if my post sounds a little morose. I still have great hope in what God can do to heal us. I need only look as far as my own life to know His amazing ability to save.

Every family member gets help when the truth is finally known. People can start to get well then. God's forgiveness is great and powerful. I don't think we really ever begin to grasp or appreciate that until we see our tremendous need for it and come to the place that we ask for it. Having all things laid naked and open before Him has a way of bringing us to that place.

When all is said and done, every mouth will be stopped. None will be able to boast. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" will not be just a verse in the Bible. We will know it to the core. When we give all praise and glory to the Lamb in that day, we will be doing just that.

Thankful Jane

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

at one time I used to consider what happened to ____ I was once with in Anaheim? Over time I realized how shallow this thought was. Really the question should be are these children going on with the Lord after leaving the local churches?

Terry,

This is an excellent thought.

Despite my challenge concerning one particular family and those old BARM posts, there is something in me that realizes that maybe they are too personally exposing rather than probative to any study of the LC and might be better ignored. I have since suggested in private that maybe this is the one place where backing into the tent with a blanket and leaving quietly is truly the best course of action.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think about such things. (Phil 4:8)

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Despite my challenge concerning one particular family and those old BARM posts, there is something in me that realizes that maybe they are too personally exposing rather than probative to any study of the LC and might be better ignored. I have since suggested in private that maybe this is the one place where backing into the tent with a blanket and leaving quietly is truly the best course of action.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think about such things. (Phil 4:8)

I see your point. I seem to be attracted to testimonies like that, and Paul Krieger is another example, which are laced with equal parts of hyperbole and vitriol. I guess what I like is that you know where these folks stand! No wishy-washy 'maybe', no hesitation or doubt.

Maybe I like it because they, along with the Minoru Chen's and the Ed Marks' on the other side, frame the parameters of the debate. Reality probably lies somewhere between, but at least now you can see the edges of the field!

I believe that history will quietly cover the excesses. The truth will stand.

I read a nice quote yesterday by Kenneth Craik, an English mathematician who wrote a book in 1943 called "The Nature of Explanation". He said, "It is only by taking numerous examples and tracking down the problem from all sides that we can extract the truth; we can never wring it out of the particular example." Of course, we might rejoin that we have the 'particular example' in Jesus who exemplifies perfectly the Truth, but He alone is the exception to the rule. Jesus alone is the "faithful witness" (Rev. 1:5). Everyone else is a partial witness and needs to be held against the rest.

I apologize if I waved one witness in the air that caused some consternation. I will try to be a little more circumspect in the future. I am still learning to follow the Spirit!

[John]

Well, I’ve noticed this discussion about James Barber and his progeny. It’s been suggested that these are extremes and maybe not “probative.” I believe that these testimonies, and others like them, must be kept in mind and not discarded when dealing with The Local Church issue.

Whether or not these two sons of a foundational, tier-one elder describe an extreme of the subject or not, I don’t know. What I do know is that their experiences are not isoloated. The “rule” of their father in the home was not limited to the home. Yes, it went out to the whole of “The Church in Oklahoma City” and not in a good way.

My son still periodically gets information about the people with whom he associated there in his youth. Some years back, he mentioned that he didn’t know of any former Local Church young person from OKC who wasn’t in a very bad situation. Not only were the ones he knew about not following the Lord, they were involved in everything from dealing drugs to exotic dancing. I pray that their situations have changed for the better by now. (Of course, my son didn’t know everyone’s situation.)

Okay, you say, so OKC was problematic to our study. Was it an anomoly? No, many former Local Church members know something of abuse, either directly or indirectly. The Barbers certainly were in an extreme situation, but they were not the only ones. I daresay that many Local Church experiences were extreme. This forum exists just because of the extremes.

Okay, you say again, that was just OKC and one of Witness Lee’s former top lieutenants. Well, I say, “How much evidence do you need?” I witnessed Benson Phillips and Ray Graver and their strong-arm tactics in Texas. They are today’s leaders.

So, when we look at the Barbers and attempt to discard their written experiences and observations as an extreme, remember that their extremes are what we all experienced. Their experiences don’t just frame the edges of some philosophical argument, their pain is our pain, unless we somehow intellectually divorce ourselves from the body of Christ.

I am very sure that we would have more of these same kinds of testimonies if the ones with the experiences knew where to come and weren’t too afraid or traumatized to share them. In fact, I recently heard of the abuse that another former Local Church elder regularly dished out to his family. I was genuinely shocked to hear about this person. That he would be abusive to his family was so out of character with his public persona.

You may think to yourself, “Well, it didn’t affect me where I was.” Oh, really? Did you ever attend a training? Did you ever submit to the so-called vision of Christ and the Church? Are you so sure that the haughty spirit of Witness Lee did not filter down to your assembly? Witness Lee taught us how to despise others. He also taught the leaders, by example, how to lord it over others. And, by example, he also taught, at least the males, how to be abusive.

Here is the bottom line for me: Local Church and Living Stream Ministry defenders want to sweep these things under the rug. They only want to be judged on their doctrines; they don’t want us to look at the fruit. Well, the Barbers are fruit; my son’s friends from OKC are fruit; and the unnamed children from other places are also fruit.

May those who have the courage to write be appreciated and prayed for. May their writings stand as a testimony against those who lord it over the flock in The Local Church. There came a day in history when former children of the Roman Catholic Church took a stand against the abuse they experienced from the all-powerful clergy. Eventually, even the pope felt it necessary to apologize.

[aron]

Originally Posted by John

So, when we look at the Barbers and attempt to discard their written experiences and observations as an extreme, remember that their extremes are what we all experienced. Their experiences don’t just frame the edges of some philosophical argument, their pain is our pain, unless we somehow intellectually divorce ourselves from the body of Christ.

I am very sure that we would have more of these same kinds of testimonies if the ones with the experiences knew where to come and weren’t too afraid or traumatized to share them.

Here is the bottom line for me: Local Church and Living Stream Ministry defenders want to sweep these things under the rug. They only want to be judged on their doctrines; they don’t want us to look at the fruit. Well, the Barbers are fruit; my son’s friends from OKC are fruit; and the unnamed children from other places are also fruit.

May those who have the courage to write be appreciated and prayed for. May their writings stand as a testimony against those who lord it over the flock in The Local Church. There came a day in history when former children of the Roman Catholic Church took a stand against the abuse they experienced from the all-powerful clergy. Eventually, even the pope felt it necessary to apologize.

I am grateful for all the testimonies I read on the BARM forum, and here. Please forgive me if I mischaracterized some of them. The Lord remembers all the sheep. He keeps the 99, and finds the lost one as well. May all those "lost sheep" find the shepherd. Thanks for sharing, John. Peace to you & to all those who find the strength to speak up.