A Word of Love

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Not to take anything from this experience ZNP, to make a point about 'good material' for the church life, would this experience been equally successful if it had been 14 people come into the meetings of the church in Taipei ?...or just a group of people who work at grocery stores or department stores ? or from a homeless shelter?

CMW, you mentioned what had been on my mind last night and into the morning; "good material".
What is good material and who is good material? Is this a term relegated to men and women enrolled in universities? What about men and women who choose to enlist in the armed forces? What about men and women who choose to work in supermarkets? What men and women who choose labor trades as their career?
Since the churches have chosen to emphasize the campus work, how come in the campus work, the emphasis is on college freshmen?
As I have been saying along in posts and on other threads, the recovery has become specialized and gone away from being general. In order for local churches to be truly a local church, there has to be generality.
Question I had is since there's such an emphasis on campus work, why can't middle school and high school students start their own Christian clubs in their schools? Surely the ACLU would protest, but it's the students starting the clubs. This would be my answer to why focus on college campuses for good material? Why limit yourselves to the college campuses? When there's much more good material in the middle schools and in high schools.
When I drop my two eldest children at their Thursday night Youth Ministry which covers middle school and high school students, there is easily 20-30 students or more on a weekly basis. If this is just one congregation within my locality, how many more are out there?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

CMW, you mentioned what had been on my mind last night and into the morning; "good material".
What is good material and who is good material? Is this a term relegated to men and women enrolled in universities? What about men and women who choose to enlist in the armed forces? What about men and women who choose to work in supermarkets? What men and women who choose labor trades as their career?
Since the churches have chosen to emphasize the campus work, how come in the campus work, the emphasis is on college freshmen?
As I have been saying along in posts and on other threads, the recovery has become specialized and gone away from being general. In order for local churches to be truly a local church, there has to be generality.
Question I had is since there's such an emphasis on campus work, why can't middle school and high school students start their own Christian clubs in their schools? Surely the ACLU would protest, but it's the students starting the clubs. This would be my answer to why focus on college campuses for good material? Why limit yourselves to the college campuses? When there's much more good material in the middle schools and in high schools.
When I drop my two eldest children at their Thursday night Youth Ministry which covers middle school and high school students, there is easily 20-30 students or more on a weekly basis. If this is just one congregation within my locality, how many more are out there?

Some comments. Campus work in high school and middle school can be very prevailing, but almost always and exclusively if run by a student in school. It is a very thorny issue for a teacher to get involved. You could have a young peoples work at a church and then have the kids go out and evangelize their school. But it would almost always have to be student run and directed. Also, since these kids will graduate and move on this would make this a very ephemeral ministry.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Campus work in high school and middle school can be very prevailing, but almost always and exclusively if run by a student in school. It is a very thorny issue for a teacher to get involved.

1. One of the brothers in my home meeting group received the Lord from campus work at his high school. As I understand a work combined by local youth pastors whose goal was not building up the church whom supports them, but to evangelize.
2. The youth pastor who ministers to my two eldest, he has a presence on amiddle school in a nearby school district. (Not the middle school my children go to.) He can't be at the middle school or high school for the sake of evangelizing, but to provide community work (middle school) or assisting with the high school football team. At any rate he's able to build a relationship with students.
3. Yes, it would be an issue for teachers in the public school system.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Campus work in high school and middle school can be very prevailing, but almost always and exclusively if run by a student in school.

Terry wrote:

Since the churches have chosen to emphasize the campus work, how come in the campus work, the emphasis is on college freshmen?
As I have been saying along in posts and on other threads, the recovery has become specialized and gone away from being general. In order for local churches to be truly a local church, there has to be generality.

Good points to both of you. Permit me to add a little salt to the mix. Campus work should begin w/parents helping their kids develop an intimate relationship with God (through His Son & His Holy Spirit).

From there, the kids ought to bring the gospel to their friends and classmates.

Yeah..yeah.. I know. I'm being idealistic.
HOWEVER......... this past summer, I spent every Sunday or Monday at my friend's house. We've been friends since our days in high school. Through the Anointing of the Lord, I led her to Christ around 2006/7. Her grandkids who live next door are 11, 12 & 13. They took a liking to me and so I began sharing the Word of God with them.

I never planned anything, I'd just share whatever the Lord put in my heart. Sometimes the Presence of the Lord was so strong, they would tell me they were getting 'chills' and 'goosebumps' hearing me explain the scriptures to them. At the end of August,, I bought each of them a bible w/big print.

I explained the 2 covenants (Old and New Testaments), I had them read the titles of each book from Genesis to Revelation. I had them speak a scripture to each other. I had them pray out loud. I had them write scriptures on index cards so they could read them throughout the week.

It was an amazing and FUNNNNN time ! We would sit around the table for HOURS ! They'd sometimes hold up their index fingers and say "Pause" when they wanted a bathroom break or a munchy break. Then they'd come back to the table and make a triangle w/their hands giving me permission to 'continue'. They would raise their hands and ask questions too.

One time, I was told that a classmate of theirs did not believe in God. So I told them to show the kid Psalm 14 & had them read verse 1. The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” You should have seen their eyes pop out !! Too, too funny !

I never planned a 'lesson', nor would make them have a 'bible study time'. I'd just show up to hang out and every time I did, they'd come over w/their bibles. IMHO, they are very special & unique kids because all 3 of them wanted to hear about the Lord. They are very close to each other.

Someone gave me the movie "the Secrets of Mr Sperry'. We all watched it together...If you haven't seen it, buy it !!

I guess my point to all this is we all ought to be able to share the gospel and fellowship so 'naturally'. Every person needs Jesus...whether they know it or not..whether they dig their heels in or not. In fact ALL creation longs for our Creator...even the rocks!

May the Lord bless us all and May the Holy Spirit guide us and teach us how to reach every man, woman and child...young and old, rich and poor, healthy and sick. . Come Lord Jesus. Come.

[ZNPaaneah]

You have done a nice job of conveying what I was trying to say about enjoying the gospel instead of some church elder trying to push the members for his ego.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You have done a nice job of conveying what I was trying to say about enjoying the gospel instead of some church elder trying to push the members for his ego.

I'm sure that there are pastors that push people for their ego. But at the same time you have to wonder a little about a pastor that just sits back and hopes it happens.

Surely the level to which they equip their flock is a key. But sometimes it is reasonable to encourage, even admonish people to do what they should do. It seems that we slip into a sort of an "it's strictly up to me on my own" mentality at times. And treat the issue as a "we do it on our own or preachers push us" dichotomy. Yes, we have to do it. And sometimes we need a push to start to do what we should.

We do need to be taught to obey all that Jesus commanded. It says so in Matthew. It's not just a matter of ego, but of commission.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

I'm sure that there are pastors that push people for their ego. But at the same time you have to wonder a little about a pastor that just sits back and hopes it happens.

Surely the level to which they equip their flock is a key. But sometimes it is reasonable to encourage, even admonish people to do what they should do. It seems that we slip into a sort of an "it's strictly up to me on my own" mentality at times. And treat the issue as a "we do it on our own or preachers push us" dichotomy. Yes, we have to do it. And sometimes we need a push to start to do what we should.

We do need to be taught to obey all that Jesus commanded. It says so in Matthew. It's not just a matter of ego, but of commission.

Well I must of misunderstood a previous post of yours that said, what I thought was something to the effect of "not everyone is supposed to preach the gospel". You did not say that, but I thought you said you were "rethinking" the idea that everyone is commissioned to go and preach the gospel.?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well I must of misunderstood a previous post of yours that said, what I thought was something to the effect of "not everyone is supposed to preach the gospel". You did not say that, but I thought you said you were "rethinking" the idea that everyone is commissioned to go and preach the gospel.?

There is a difference between our general "commission" to live the gospel, and be ready to speak if asked, etc., and the commission in Matthew 28. That was my point there. I think you made some statement that Jesus had said those things to everybody, but it turns out that of all the possible followers at that time, only the 11 were taken aside and told this.

So the commission to go make it your primary task to spread the gospel was not given to everyone. In other words, Jesus didn't tell everyone to go out. Most of us are asked to live the gospel life (that we learn as the result of that commission) right where we are. And we sill get the opportunity to "preach" as it were.

But we were not put on earth to preach the gospel. We were put here to be the image bearers of Christ.

We were not saved to become the modern equivalent of the 11 in Matthew 28. We were saved as the outgrowth of those who took that commission and spread out over the earth. That does not mean we don't "preach/proclaim the gospel." But we do it more in our lives than in our words. More as part of living than as a "primary task" as was given to those guys.

That is what I was talking about.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

I'm sure that there are pastors that push people for their ego. But at the same time you have to wonder a little about a pastor that just sits back and hopes it happens.

Surely the level to which they equip their flock is a key. But sometimes it is reasonable to encourage, even admonish people to do what they should do. It seems that we slip into a sort of an "it's strictly up to me on my own" mentality at times. And treat the issue as a "we do it on our own or preachers push us" dichotomy. Yes, we have to do it. And sometimes we need a push to start to do what we should.

We do need to be taught to obey all that Jesus commanded. It says so in Matthew. It's not just a matter of ego, but of commission.

I heard a pastor encourage his congregation to get to know their neighbors...and invite them 'to church'. Why not get to know your neighbors and speak of the things of the Lord with them..be it sharing the gospel (however way the Holy Spirit leads) or engage them in fellowship.

My opinion: The more people come 'to church' the more they'll hear
ch-ching! ch-ching !!


(I know..I know...not everywhere)

[OBW]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I heard a pastor encourage his congregation to get to know their neighbors...and invite them 'to church'. Why not get to know your neighbors and speak of the things of the Lord with them..be it sharing the gospel (however way the Holy Spirit leads) or engage them in fellowship.

We are encouraged to share however we share. And we no longer presume salvation as a line in the sand, "I can name the date and time" event. We accept that it might come from a lengthy observation period, complete with many questions, followed by more observation and more questions. And in the midst of this, "going to church" some, or maybe not. But eventually realizing that they really do believe in Christ. When did it start? Not always sure. It sort of happened gradually.

We may like to argue that either they do or don't believe. And it is partly true. But what do they need to believe to be considered "a believer"? The whole core of the faith? The guts of some creed (even if they never heard of a creed)?

And do we think we really believe it all? Probably not. Oh we would say that we believe everything in the Bible. But we aren't even sure what some of it is saying. And if we did, and thought about it, we might take a little while to come to where we actually believe in "that."

Yeah, we can say we believe it on faith. But isn't that sometimes a way of saying we don't get it but we are going to stand by it because it is in the Bible. You know. Important things like one church one city. (We used to think that was in there.) On the flip side, do you believe the things that are in there that you are convinced are not actually in there? I don't know what that would be. For you or for me. But at one time, it was for me that 1 Cor 3:10 or so and following was not talking about all believers. I was sure that it was. I now disagree with that position. Neither is really relevant to my daily walk. Nor to salvation. What if I don't believe that?

I didn't mention any of this to get responses. Rather to think some more. I believe a lot. And I'm convinced that part of what I believe is wrong (and I obviously don't know where that is or I would change my mind). But I am fairly certain that what is important is not wrong. And there is a lot less in that part than is so often argued about. It tends to distill down to "love God and love everyone you have any contact with or even think about."